Hydrogen is the future, not BEVs?

[Lexington59]

Interesting reading in the latest review of the Mirai II, particularly:

'Not that you would understand any of this from our Government, its ministers and its civil servants. Normally I’d accuse them of treating us like a bunch of morons, but here one might suspect something of a conspiracy.

Hydrogen wasn’t mentioned at all in last spring’s Department for Transport’s decarbonisation consultation paper, a recent Low Carbon Vehicle Partnership report on decarbonising heavy transport didn’t once mention fuel cells and one even more recent economic intelligence report from a Cambridge-based specialist did a fantastic hatchet job calling fuel cells a “commercial failure”.'


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/toyota/toyota-mir...

Strange, when you consider hydrogen has none of the drawbacks of BEVs in terms of range and charging time, just the current poor charging network which is common to both technologies; and that the japs seem to be investing in this big time.

Makes me think our government has backed the wrong horse.

[Vickers_VC10]

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

further reading...

[sparkyhx]

Hydrogen is like Nuclear Fusion, always 10 years away

[HD Adam]

sparkyhx said:

Hydrogen is like Nuclear Fusion, always 10 years away

It's here right now.

https://h2stationmaps.com/hydrogen-stations

[Doofus]

I've been saying for years that hydrogen is the answer, not batteries. Like diesel, BEVs are another dead end that we'll eventually realise do as much harm as good.

Nobody is inclined to listen to me.

[TooLateForAName]

Lexington59 said:

Makes me think our government has backed the wrong horse.

You need to do more research.

Hydrogen is being pushed by the oil companies but it really isn't a great solution for cars. Ships/big trucks - maybe.

[RussellAnderson]

I agree with the opinion of the author of the article

[320d is all you need]

I like the idea of Hydrogen, being that it's usage is far more similar to petrol cars, and the infrastructure is mostly there (IE filling stations).

The Battery car and the infrastructure to support is is still a very long way away, for the majority of people. Irrespective of what the Battery car evangelists will say.

I'd guess 30-40% of people don't park their car off road (IE on a driveway or in a garage) and so there's no way to be draping cables across the street.

[feef]

I think many of the issues with Hyrdogen are the power it takes to make : why not just charge a battery with that power instead
And storage has complications when you consider that to Hydrogen, even steel tanks are permeable

[320d is all you need]

feef said:

I think many of the issues with Hyrdogen are the power it takes to make : why not just charge a battery with that power instead
And storage has complications when you consider that to Hydrogen, even steel tanks are permeable

That's true. There are concerns.

But the reason Hydrogen looks promising to me is that it allows exactly the same freedom of movement we have now.
300 miles or so of driving. Then a 5 minute fill up.

Not 300 miles of driving, and charge at around 3 miles per minute at a rapid charger. (Source: Harry's Garage latest video)

No doubt most "boring EV's" can't take a rapid charger so charge at half that.

So to do my commute which is a 80 mile round trip would take... 40 minutes of charging at 2 mi per minute.
Sounds great!
Except it takes me 40 minutes to do the bloody commute. And unfortunately I'm not rich enough to afford a driveway (I park on the road).

[feef]

320d is all you need said:

feef said:

I think many of the issues with Hyrdogen are the power it takes to make : why not just charge a battery with that power instead
And storage has complications when you consider that to Hydrogen, even steel tanks are permeable

That's true. There are concerns.

But the reason Hydrogen looks promising to me is that it allows exactly the same freedom of movement we have now.
300 miles or so of driving. Then a 5 minute fill up.

Not 300 miles of driving, and charge at around 3 miles per minute at a rapid charger. (Source: Harry's Garage latest video)

No doubt most "boring EV's" can't take a rapid charger so charge at half that.

So to do my commute which is a 80 mile round trip would take... 40 minutes of charging at 2 mi per minute.
Sounds great!
Except it takes me 40 minutes to do the bloody commute. And unfortunately I'm not rich enough to afford a driveway (I park on the road).

but since you're taking at least a 15 minute break every 2 hrs, the 5 min fill is immaterial no? Plug in for 15 mins on a fast charger (when the infrastructure and vehicles that can cope with fast charging are available) and it won't be a problem.

[DuncanM23]

HD Adam said:

sparkyhx said:

Hydrogen is like Nuclear Fusion, always 10 years away

It's here right now.

https://h2stationmaps.com/hydrogen-stations

As far as I can tell, there are a total of 17 stations in the UK.

There are loads of reasons why H2 is not the answer for cars, but the simplest is the energy cost of generating the H2. Check the well to wheel numbers from Riversimple (who have a vested interest in promoting H2): https://www.riversimple.com/batteries-hydrogen-wro...
100kWh of electricity results in the following amount of energy making it to the wheels:
BEV: 69kWh
Fuel Cell Vehicle: 23kWh.

[sparkyhx]

HD Adam said:

sparkyhx said:

Hydrogen is like Nuclear Fusion, always 10 years away

It's here right now.

https://h2stationmaps.com/hydrogen-stations

indeed - in the same way there are uncommercial fusion reactors, I have actually seen one of the Honda hydrogen cars on the road a few years ago.

It has to be the future, we need a 'Tesla' for Hydrogen pushing the tech and agenda

[sjg]

ZapMap shows nine in England, four of which are out of service.

And if you think apps to use EV rapid chargers are annoying, you're going to love this:

"To use one of our hydrogen stations, you will need to download, complete and return the application form to [e-mail] before you are issued with a fuel card and receive training." https://www.itm-power.com/h2-stations/rainham-sola...

[320d is all you need]

feef said:

320d is all you need said:

feef said:

I think many of the issues with Hyrdogen are the power it takes to make : why not just charge a battery with that power instead
And storage has complications when you consider that to Hydrogen, even steel tanks are permeable

That's true. There are concerns.

But the reason Hydrogen looks promising to me is that it allows exactly the same freedom of movement we have now.
300 miles or so of driving. Then a 5 minute fill up.

Not 300 miles of driving, and charge at around 3 miles per minute at a rapid charger. (Source: Harry's Garage latest video)

No doubt most "boring EV's" can't take a rapid charger so charge at half that.

So to do my commute which is a 80 mile round trip would take... 40 minutes of charging at 2 mi per minute.
Sounds great!
Except it takes me 40 minutes to do the bloody commute. And unfortunately I'm not rich enough to afford a driveway (I park on the road).

but since you're taking at least a 15 minute break every 2 hrs, the 5 min fill is immaterial no? Plug in for 15 mins on a fast charger (when the infrastructure and vehicles that can cope with fast charging are available) and it won't be a problem.

As I said though sir

Many of the affordable EV's cannot do proper fast charging. If every car could charge at 70+ kw, OK, that can be sucked up.

But they can't.

A Hyundai Kona EV charges at 40KW?

Unless you buy the one you "really want" of course at extra cost. Then you can charge at around 75KW, At best, when there is no-one else using the chargers.
When there is, it slows down.

I believe we need to be leading the EV infrastructure so if we have 10 chargers they all need to be able to charge at their maximum advertised speed.
EG if they say 80KW chargers then all 10 in use need to be able to do 80KW.
Where as currently I believe the more people are using them, the slower your rate is.
Not to mention you only can charge up at the faster rates when your battery is low.



Currently I can fill up my car with Diesel - it takes 5 minutes - and I can do 600 miles of range.

As I said, even at a "rapid charger" at around 75kw it'd still take me a good chunk of time to get enough juice to do my commute.

Not to mention that time is wasted at a charging station.
I don't want a Costa, or to go shopping. I certainly don't want to be sat at a charge point on my todd.
I want to go to work, or I want to go home. Or I want to go to the Pub.

There is not any practical way to install charging outlets along my street. There is no wall to mount the chargers to nor is there power and I don't think you can install stand alone chargers along a road in such a way because cars are all different lengths so it doesn't necessarily work. You'd have to mark out individual bays and have one charger per bay but then as I said perhaps 3 smaller cars could park there where as only 2 large ones fit, so you then end up in a situation where people don't have anywhere to park.

[feef]

320d is all you need said:

feef said:

320d is all you need said:

feef said:

I think many of the issues with Hyrdogen are the power it takes to make : why not just charge a battery with that power instead
And storage has complications when you consider that to Hydrogen, even steel tanks are permeable

That's true. There are concerns.

But the reason Hydrogen looks promising to me is that it allows exactly the same freedom of movement we have now.
300 miles or so of driving. Then a 5 minute fill up.

Not 300 miles of driving, and charge at around 3 miles per minute at a rapid charger. (Source: Harry's Garage latest video)

No doubt most "boring EV's" can't take a rapid charger so charge at half that.

So to do my commute which is a 80 mile round trip would take... 40 minutes of charging at 2 mi per minute.
Sounds great!
Except it takes me 40 minutes to do the bloody commute. And unfortunately I'm not rich enough to afford a driveway (I park on the road).

but since you're taking at least a 15 minute break every 2 hrs, the 5 min fill is immaterial no? Plug in for 15 mins on a fast charger (when the infrastructure and vehicles that can cope with fast charging are available) and it won't be a problem.

As I said though sir

Many of the affordable EV's cannot do proper fast charging. If every car could charge at 70+ kw, OK, that can be sucked up.

But they can't.

A Hyundai Kona EV charges at 40KW?

Unless you buy the one you "really want" of course at extra cost. Then you can charge at around 75KW, At best, when there is no-one else using the chargers.
When there is, it slows down.

I believe we need to be leading the EV infrastructure so if we have 10 chargers they all need to be able to charge at their maximum advertised speed.
EG if they say 80KW chargers then all 10 in use need to be able to do 80KW.
Where as currently I believe the more people are using them, the slower your rate is.
Not to mention you only can charge up at the faster rates when your battery is low.



Currently I can fill up my car with Diesel - it takes 5 minutes - and I can do 600 miles of range.

As I said, even at a "rapid charger" at around 75kw it'd still take me a good chunk of time to get enough juice to do my commute.

Not to mention that time is wasted at a charging station.
I don't want a Costa, or to go shopping. I certainly don't want to be sat at a charge point on my todd.
I want to go to work, or I want to go home. Or I want to go to the Pub.

There is not any practical way to install charging outlets along my street. There is no wall to mount the chargers to nor is there power and I don't think you can install stand alone chargers along a road in such a way because cars are all different lengths so it doesn't necessarily work. You'd have to mark out individual bays and have one charger per bay but then as I said perhaps 3 smaller cars could park there where as only 2 large ones fit, so you then end up in a situation where people don't have anywhere to park.

note: (when the infrastructure and vehicles that can cope with fast charging are available)

Also, as you'll be stopping for 15 minutes every 2 hrs on these long drives then there will be sufficient time to charge when (to reiterate) the infrastructure and vehicles that can cope with fast charging are available

[Pica-Pica]

Lexington59 said:

Interesting reading in the latest review of the Mirai II, particularly:

'Not that you would understand any of this from our Government, its ministers and its civil servants. Normally I’d accuse them of treating us like a bunch of morons, but here one might suspect something of a conspiracy.

Hydrogen wasn’t mentioned at all in last spring’s Department for Transport’s decarbonisation consultation paper, a recent Low Carbon Vehicle Partnership report on decarbonising heavy transport didn’t once mention fuel cells and one even more recent economic intelligence report from a Cambridge-based specialist did a fantastic hatchet job calling fuel cells a “commercial failure”.'


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/toyota/toyota-mir...

Strange, when you consider hydrogen has none of the drawbacks of BEVs in terms of range and charging time, just the current poor charging network which is common to both technologies; and that the japs seem to be investing in this big time.

Makes me think our government has backed the wrong horse.

‘japs’ ? Come on!

[320d is all you need]

feef said:

note: (when the infrastructure and vehicles that can cope with fast charging are available)

Also, as you'll be stopping for 15 minutes every 2 hrs on these long drives then there will be sufficient time to charge when (to reiterate) the infrastructure and vehicles that can cope with fast charging are available

Why would I be stopping for 15 minutes every 2 hours?

I don't stop unless I get tired (which is a lot more than every 2 hours) or when I need a piss (which is generally once every 3-5 hours depending on how much fizzy beverage I've consumed).


Your link is a recommendation - not a rule.
There is no law for how long you can drive a car before taking a break.

Need I also add that the Highway code says cars from 70mph is 315 feet away...................................................
So that article is not an excuse or a reason as to why I would be stopping every 2 hours.

Infact I drove from Germany to the UK only stopping for a pee (that's 350 miles or so) in 6 hours. Didn't have a break.







There is no plan for a rapid deployment of rapid chargers in residential areas.

But then everyone says "HOME CHARGING IS THE WAY FORWARD".
Um............ no it's not.

And then the argument that there's plenty of rapid chargers? No there isn't. And a majority of cars don't support "rapid charging". Some do, but by no means all. And those that do are usually the expensive models.



They are rarely on your journey as a fuel station is, you often need to go out of your way to specifically look for them.

Tesla have the right idea, it's not perfect, but the Supercharger network is decent at least.

If I were to get an electric car I'd want a Model 3 performance.
Mainly because it's the right kind of size for me and the charging network is really, really good.

I don't like Tesla, generally people who have them are a bit.... special ...... but their infrastructure is really good. It only needs to be 20x as densely populated for everyone else is EV's have any hope of working.

Edited by 320d is all you need on Monday 30th November 14:33

[feef]

320d is all you need said:

feef said:

note: (when the infrastructure and vehicles that can cope with fast charging are available)

Also, as you'll be stopping for 15 minutes every 2 hrs on these long drives then there will be sufficient time to charge when (to reiterate) the infrastructure and vehicles that can cope with fast charging are available

Why would I be stopping for 15 minutes every 2 hours?

I included the link in my last comment. That's the recommended rest period after 2 hrs driving according to the highway code.

Would it not be a good thing to almost force drivers to take more frequent breaks to ensure there are fewer tired drivers on the road? Charging for 15 minutes every couple hours would be a way of doing that

[320d is all you need]

feef said:

320d is all you need said:

feef said:

note: (when the infrastructure and vehicles that can cope with fast charging are available)

Also, as you'll be stopping for 15 minutes every 2 hrs on these long drives then there will be sufficient time to charge when (to reiterate) the infrastructure and vehicles that can cope with fast charging are available

Why would I be stopping for 15 minutes every 2 hours?

I included the link in my last comment. That's the recommended rest period after 2 hrs driving according to the highway code.

Would it not be a good thing to almost force drivers to take more frequent breaks to ensure there are fewer tired drivers on the road? Charging for 15 minutes every couple hours would be a way of doing that

Because you shouldn't force people to take a break if it's not needed.

Driving for 2 hours doesn't make me in the least bit tired.

Do you have a 10 minute break every hour watching the TV or being on the computer, or on your Smartphone?
https://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/vdubreaks.htm

Don't be ridiculous and don't take this discussion off topic.

Charging infrastructure is not there either in public or at home and there is no plan as to how it will be there in 10 years let alone 20 and "forcing drivers" to have a break every 2 hours is not big, smart or fair.

You don't think you might encounter a problem if every 2 hours all the charging ports are full?