Hydrogen is the future, not BEVs?
Discussion
HustleRussell said:
So you have assumed that I think grid buffering is the full and final extent of the role of electrolysis?
Before you appeared to be arguing that there is no surplus renewable energy, but now you accept that there is surplus renewable energy but there's 'not enough' to do anything constructive with it?
ETA: To extend the point to a conclusion, we are currently retaining a significant capacity to generate electrical power from combustibles so that we have a knob we can turn to balance the grid. If we have electrolysers in the network which can act as a load we can use them to balance the grid. If we have a means to balance the grid then we can make a greater share of the uk energy picture renewable. There will be applications for hydrogen, albeit IMO generally not in passenger cars.
As mentioned the main reason for renewables curtailment is that the grid isn’t always able to get that renewable energy to where the demand is. Not because there isn’t sufficient demand. NG is working hard on upgrades to solve that, which despite way more wind power now being online, you hear about curtailment less and less. Add in the various undersea interconnects to mainland Europe and Scandinavia, with more on the way, and you then have a very profitable export market who one way or another will always take what you can give them. Certainly much more so than that energy otherwise sporadically going into GH production.Before you appeared to be arguing that there is no surplus renewable energy, but now you accept that there is surplus renewable energy but there's 'not enough' to do anything constructive with it?
ETA: To extend the point to a conclusion, we are currently retaining a significant capacity to generate electrical power from combustibles so that we have a knob we can turn to balance the grid. If we have electrolysers in the network which can act as a load we can use them to balance the grid. If we have a means to balance the grid then we can make a greater share of the uk energy picture renewable. There will be applications for hydrogen, albeit IMO generally not in passenger cars.
Edited by HustleRussell on Thursday 16th March 15:34
DonkeyApple said:
Nope. What's wrong is a belief that the inconsistent supply you discuss has the industrial value for sporadic conversion to a complex to store and transport gas.
If people actually knew what hydrogen was it would be an enormous help in threads such as this. Likewise, if people had a basic grasp of the commercials of industry.
You need a constant and predictable supply. Random, sporadic oversupply is not that which is why it isn't set to be converted to GH.
Something to think about.If people actually knew what hydrogen was it would be an enormous help in threads such as this. Likewise, if people had a basic grasp of the commercials of industry.
You need a constant and predictable supply. Random, sporadic oversupply is not that which is why it isn't set to be converted to GH.
What if all of these cars was H2 powered and each had a few kilos of H2 in their tanks at anywhere between 5000 and 10,000 psi?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-O3etdwkAY
DonkeyApple said:
Nope. What's wrong is a belief that the inconsistent supply you discuss has the industrial value for sporadic conversion to a complex to store and transport gas.
If people actually knew what hydrogen was it would be an enormous help in threads such as this. Likewise, if people had a basic grasp of the commercials of industry.
You need a constant and predictable supply. Random, sporadic oversupply is not that which is why it isn't set to be converted to GH.
I think many people have this mental block that because it comes from water, Hydrogen (liquid or gas) is a similarly benign substance that can be handled and distributed the same way as water and natural gas can be. Gas is gas, right? If people actually knew what hydrogen was it would be an enormous help in threads such as this. Likewise, if people had a basic grasp of the commercials of industry.
You need a constant and predictable supply. Random, sporadic oversupply is not that which is why it isn't set to be converted to GH.
dvs_dave said:
DonkeyApple said:
Nope. What's wrong is a belief that the inconsistent supply you discuss has the industrial value for sporadic conversion to a complex to store and transport gas.
If people actually knew what hydrogen was it would be an enormous help in threads such as this. Likewise, if people had a basic grasp of the commercials of industry.
You need a constant and predictable supply. Random, sporadic oversupply is not that which is why it isn't set to be converted to GH.
I think many people have this mental block that because it comes from water, Hydrogen (liquid or gas) is a similarly benign substance that can be handled and distributed the same way as water and natural gas can be. Gas is gas, right? If people actually knew what hydrogen was it would be an enormous help in threads such as this. Likewise, if people had a basic grasp of the commercials of industry.
You need a constant and predictable supply. Random, sporadic oversupply is not that which is why it isn't set to be converted to GH.
That's what happens when you take a highly explosive industrial gas that nobody has ever seen or come into contact with and describe it like this.
Huge day for green hydrogen in EU.
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/commission-outline...
And 37 station to Italy and 8 new station to Spain. Yesterday was announced 63 for TEN-T roads.
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/commission-outline...
And 37 station to Italy and 8 new station to Spain. Yesterday was announced 63 for TEN-T roads.
HustleRussell said:
So you have assumed that I think grid buffering is the full and final extent of the role of electrolysis?
Before you appeared to be arguing that there is no surplus renewable energy, but now you accept that there is surplus renewable energy but there's 'not enough' to do anything constructive with it?
ETA: To extend the point to a conclusion, we are currently retaining a significant capacity to generate electrical power from combustibles so that we have a knob we can turn to balance the grid. If we have electrolysers in the network which can act as a load we can use them to balance the grid. If we have a means to balance the grid then we can make a greater share of the uk energy picture renewable. There will be applications for hydrogen, albeit IMO generally not in passenger cars.
Yawn. Go and learn what hydrogen actually is. Learn the commercials and revert. You're currently just wafting around in circles trying to pick a fight when you're unarmed. Before you appeared to be arguing that there is no surplus renewable energy, but now you accept that there is surplus renewable energy but there's 'not enough' to do anything constructive with it?
ETA: To extend the point to a conclusion, we are currently retaining a significant capacity to generate electrical power from combustibles so that we have a knob we can turn to balance the grid. If we have electrolysers in the network which can act as a load we can use them to balance the grid. If we have a means to balance the grid then we can make a greater share of the uk energy picture renewable. There will be applications for hydrogen, albeit IMO generally not in passenger cars.
Edited by HustleRussell on Thursday 16th March 15:34
You're actually agreeing with the true reality but seemingly wanting to just argue. This thread isn't about how green hydrogen is the only means to replace grey hydrogen but about some strange belief that somehow green hydrogen is going to be wasted on punter's MPVs because they don't like electricity.
LasseV said:
Huge day for green hydrogen in EU.
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/commission-outline...
And 37 station to Italy and 8 new station to Spain. Yesterday was announced 63 for TEN-T roads.
Wow a whole 108 across the EU! https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/commission-outline...
And 37 station to Italy and 8 new station to Spain. Yesterday was announced 63 for TEN-T roads.
There are 228 actual EV charging stations being installed per day across the EU, adding to the c.375000 already up and running powering actual EVs, and that build rate is accelerating quite rapidly (like an EV!)
You really are sounding desperate. How much are you personally invested in Hydrogen? You got shares, or work for some business connected to it or fossil fuels?
Fastlane said:
Wow a whole 108 across the EU!
There are 228 actual EV charging stations being installed per day across the EU, adding to the c.375000 already up and running powering actual EVs, and that build rate is accelerating quite rapidly (like an EV!)
You really are sounding desperate. How much are you personally invested in Hydrogen? You got shares, or work for some business connected to it or fossil fuels?
Are you stupid or something?There are 228 actual EV charging stations being installed per day across the EU, adding to the c.375000 already up and running powering actual EVs, and that build rate is accelerating quite rapidly (like an EV!)
You really are sounding desperate. How much are you personally invested in Hydrogen? You got shares, or work for some business connected to it or fossil fuels?
GT9 said:
Mother nature, as usual, knows her s
t.
Hydrogen, whilst being the most plentiful of all matter, is almost non-existent in pure form anywhere on the planet.
It has been made safe by combining it with other elements to give us the building blocks of sustainable life, but without us having to deal with the potency of the bare element.
We are now seemingly hellbent on just ignoring that, and trying to take control of that potency ourselves.
It's a bit like bringing a tiger home from the pet shop instead of a cat.
To be truly safe, you really need to remove the claws and teeth and probably permanently sedate it with drugs.
Which means you don't really have a tiger anymore, just some sad excuse for one as a vanity project.
Someone at some point is going to pay a heavy price for too many pet tigers.
I think that was one too many tortured analogies for met.Hydrogen, whilst being the most plentiful of all matter, is almost non-existent in pure form anywhere on the planet.
It has been made safe by combining it with other elements to give us the building blocks of sustainable life, but without us having to deal with the potency of the bare element.
We are now seemingly hellbent on just ignoring that, and trying to take control of that potency ourselves.
It's a bit like bringing a tiger home from the pet shop instead of a cat.
To be truly safe, you really need to remove the claws and teeth and probably permanently sedate it with drugs.
Which means you don't really have a tiger anymore, just some sad excuse for one as a vanity project.
Someone at some point is going to pay a heavy price for too many pet tigers.
DonkeyApple said:
HustleRussell said:
So you have assumed that I think grid buffering is the full and final extent of the role of electrolysis?
Before you appeared to be arguing that there is no surplus renewable energy, but now you accept that there is surplus renewable energy but there's 'not enough' to do anything constructive with it?
ETA: To extend the point to a conclusion, we are currently retaining a significant capacity to generate electrical power from combustibles so that we have a knob we can turn to balance the grid. If we have electrolysers in the network which can act as a load we can use them to balance the grid. If we have a means to balance the grid then we can make a greater share of the uk energy picture renewable. There will be applications for hydrogen, albeit IMO generally not in passenger cars.
Yawn. Go and learn what hydrogen actually is. Learn the commercials and revert. You're currently just wafting around in circles trying to pick a fight when you're unarmed. Before you appeared to be arguing that there is no surplus renewable energy, but now you accept that there is surplus renewable energy but there's 'not enough' to do anything constructive with it?
ETA: To extend the point to a conclusion, we are currently retaining a significant capacity to generate electrical power from combustibles so that we have a knob we can turn to balance the grid. If we have electrolysers in the network which can act as a load we can use them to balance the grid. If we have a means to balance the grid then we can make a greater share of the uk energy picture renewable. There will be applications for hydrogen, albeit IMO generally not in passenger cars.
Edited by HustleRussell on Thursday 16th March 15:34
You're actually agreeing with the true reality but seemingly wanting to just argue. This thread isn't about how green hydrogen is the only means to replace grey hydrogen but about some strange belief that somehow green hydrogen is going to be wasted on punter's MPVs because they don't like electricity.
LasseV said:
Huge day for green hydrogen in EU.
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/commission-outline...
And 37 station to Italy and 8 new station to Spain. Yesterday was announced 63 for TEN-T roads.
You should really work on your reading comprehension skills. A boiler room penny stock spanker’s dream.https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/commission-outline...
And 37 station to Italy and 8 new station to Spain. Yesterday was announced 63 for TEN-T roads.
LasseV said:
Are you stupid or something?
You're the one arguing that hydrogen is the solution to a problem that has already been solved.Given your unwillingness to accept this fact, then I can only assume you have money in the hydrogen "game", for that is exactly what all this "hydrogen is the future" is, a game. It's being played by the fossil fuel industry and those with vested interests to maintain the status quo - people like you.
Hydrogen has been the supposed magical fuel for 50 years, and the reasons why it has not been developed are exactly the same now as they were 50 years ago - that there are much cheaper and better alternatives for most use cases. The cheapest alternative was to burn cheap fossil fuels, but now it's to use icreasingly renewable electricity instead.
LasseV said:
Huge day for green hydrogen in EU.
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/commission-outline...
And 37 station to Italy and 8 new station to Spain. Yesterday was announced 63 for TEN-T roads.
Considering that last year there were 0 new fuel cell vehicles registered in Italy and just 1 in Spain, you wonder why they're bothering.https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/commission-outline...
And 37 station to Italy and 8 new station to Spain. Yesterday was announced 63 for TEN-T roads.
https://www.fchobservatory.eu/observatory/technolo...
NMNeil said:
LasseV said:
Huge day for green hydrogen in EU.
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/commission-outline...
And 37 station to Italy and 8 new station to Spain. Yesterday was announced 63 for TEN-T roads.
Considering that last year there were 0 new fuel cell vehicles registered in Italy and just 1 in Spain, you wonder why they're bothering.https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/commission-outline...
And 37 station to Italy and 8 new station to Spain. Yesterday was announced 63 for TEN-T roads.
https://www.fchobservatory.eu/observatory/technolo...
It lays out quite clearly what the primary role of any GH is to be. As do most of the articles he posts yet he opts to perverse almost any such article to project an unfounded and deeply flawed personal belief that flies in the face of the whole global hydrogen industry, the investment capital, the tax credit aims which is that somehow all this GH, which doesn't even exist yet and won't until well after 2035 is somehow to be used to replace EVs.
This is just YorkshireSimon's Finnish cousin.
to be fair to LasseV, i think in the perma-frozen bits of Finland, batteries don't really offer a solution…….. today. but they will crack the low temperature thing, and there are a few chemistries that avoid this problem. admittedly in a lab surrounding for now, but there is enough need for uses in really cold places for a commercial battery offering to be worth developing.
tamore said:
to be fair to LasseV, i think in the perma-frozen bits of Finland, batteries don't really offer a solution…….. today. but they will crack the low temperature thing, and there are a few chemistries that avoid this problem. admittedly in a lab surrounding for now, but there is enough need for uses in really cold places for a commercial battery offering to be worth developing.
Yup. We discussed this a while back. It's the same with places like Alaska etc. The error being made however is to look at one's parochial village and extrapolate that to the whole of Europe. There's just too much dreaming and religion involved and the usual ignoring of the absolute basics of both science and finance and ultimately, reality. LasseV said:
Fastlane said:
Wow a whole 108 across the EU!
There are 228 actual EV charging stations being installed per day across the EU, adding to the c.375000 already up and running powering actual EVs, and that build rate is accelerating quite rapidly (like an EV!)
You really are sounding desperate. How much are you personally invested in Hydrogen? You got shares, or work for some business connected to it or fossil fuels?
Are you stupid or something?There are 228 actual EV charging stations being installed per day across the EU, adding to the c.375000 already up and running powering actual EVs, and that build rate is accelerating quite rapidly (like an EV!)
You really are sounding desperate. How much are you personally invested in Hydrogen? You got shares, or work for some business connected to it or fossil fuels?
Hydrogen will be used but will be limited to very unique requirements. it wont be general use
Hydrogen is an extra step that uses a lot of electricity to be used as a not very efficient store of energy. Or if like they do just now rely on other means such as steam reformation of natural gas... Its not actually that green...
Natural Gas Reforming/Gasification: Synthesis gas—a mixture of hydrogen, carbon monoxide, and a small amount of carbon dioxide—is created by reacting natural gas with high-temperature steam. The carbon monoxide is reacted with water to produce additional hydrogen. This method is the cheapest, most efficient, and most common. Natural gas reforming using steam accounts for the majority of hydrogen produced in the United States annually.
A synthesis gas can also be created by reacting coal or biomass with high-temperature steam and oxygen in a pressurized gasifier. This converts the coal or biomass into gaseous components—a process called gasification. The resulting synthesis gas contains hydrogen and carbon monoxide, which is reacted with steam to separate the hydrogen.
https://www.rechargenews.com/transition/a-wake-up-...
The gas itself is impossible to use without a full on infrastructure geared towards the storage of a dangerous gas at seveal orders of magnitude risk to be accounted for. storing it has many issues.
https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-sto...
Hydrogen - if burnt produces a lot of issues...
https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlepdf/2021/ea...
Hydrogen - it leaks
https://www.edf.org/blog/2022/03/07/hydrogen-clima...
Hydrogen in your gas supply 20% will be hydrogen, other 80% natural gas.... its a long process before they get to 100% hydrogen, and it will be costlier to run as hydrogen isnt going to be cheap.
https://theecologist.org/2020/nov/03/hydrogen-home...
Hydrogen is being pushed by the fossil fuel brigaide....
Carbon neutral... No such thing. thats greenwash. You get carbon neutral ? well that means carbon transport. you remove it from one place and put it to another...
So the natural gas to hydrogen results in carbon beiong produced...
and as for carbon capture
https://ieefa.org/resources/carbon-capture-remains...
And making hydrogen from water.... whats going to happen to all that water... how is that going to effect the environment ?
ruggedscotty said:
And making hydrogen from water.... whats going to happen to all that water... how is that going to effect the environment ?
I know the existence of electrolysis and fuel cell technology is inconvenient for ‘oil & gas cabal’ conspiracy theorists but that’s the weakest attempt to discredit it that I’ve seen yet!
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