Hydrogen is the future, not BEVs?
Discussion
HustleRussell said:
ruggedscotty said:
And making hydrogen from water.... whats going to happen to all that water... how is that going to effect the environment ?
I know the existence of electrolysis and fuel cell technology is inconvenient for ‘oil & gas cabal’ conspiracy theorists but that’s the weakest attempt to discredit it that I’ve seen yet!
ruggedscotty said:
HustleRussell said:
ruggedscotty said:
And making hydrogen from water.... whats going to happen to all that water... how is that going to effect the environment ?
I know the existence of electrolysis and fuel cell technology is inconvenient for ‘oil & gas cabal’ conspiracy theorists but that’s the weakest attempt to discredit it that I’ve seen yet!
You'd never have to pay for fancy sea salt again though as that market is set to be destroyed.
But the real comedy one is the claim that atmospheric carbon is to be used for making the alcohol. That is a total lie. The carbon has to be an industrial source to be available in the volumes required. There is barely any carbon in the actual atmosphere and the size and number of fans needed to draw enough air through the catalysts to try and extract some carbon would change every weather system on the planet and suck in every bird and insect.
One also has to consider the problem of a few million cars all sitting there leaking hydrogen into the atmosphere 24/7/355. The storage and distribution network all leaking this toxic gas.
Hydrogen remains in the Earth's atmosphere for 2 years before escaping into space as gravity isn't strong enough to hold it. During that period hydrogen actively increases methane and ozone in the lower atmosphere before going on to damage ozone in the outer atmosphere.
This is very much a Thomas Midgely event but with the difference being that we know today what the damage tomorrow will be.
ruggedscotty said:
HustleRussell said:
ruggedscotty said:
And making hydrogen from water.... whats going to happen to all that water... how is that going to effect the environment ?
I know the existence of electrolysis and fuel cell technology is inconvenient for ‘oil & gas cabal’ conspiracy theorists but that’s the weakest attempt to discredit it that I’ve seen yet!
Hydrogen cars "exhaust" water as a by product.
98elise said:
It's a tiny amount, and less than is consumed by the fossil fuel industry.
Hydrogen cars "exhaust" water as a by product.
Water is a pollutant. The amount added to a local weather system altera that weather system. You wouldn't want millions of cars in an urban setting all pumping out water additional to that which the weather cell has been defined by. Hydrogen cars "exhaust" water as a by product.
Obviously, we are never going to have millions of cars using hydrogen fuel cells but it's important to appreciate that all excess emissions of any substance is a pollutant.
But the real issue of a hydrogen economy is the relentless and unstoppable leaking of man made hydrogen into the atmosphere.
This is why hydrogen must be made and used at source which presents enormous issues re matching supply with demand and stable pricing if you are trying to use random and momentary excesses of renewable energy to tie in with a constant demand from the local transport system. It just doesn't work in reality. The storage buffer solution just adds to the bad economics as well as magnifying the pollution.
Grey hydrogen is efficient because it is made from fossil fuels and the industry that uses it is located next door. There's no need for storage and the hydrogen production can be increased and decreased in a dial to instantly match the industrial demand ebb and flows next door.
DonkeyApple said:
But the real comedy one is the claim that atmospheric carbon is to be used for making the alcohol. That is a total lie. The carbon has to be an industrial source to be available in the volumes required. There is barely any carbon in the actual atmosphere and the size and number of fans needed to draw enough air through the catalysts to try and extract some carbon would change every weather system on the planet and suck in every bird and insect.
You’re continuing to wilfully ignore the existence of electrolysis process which doesn’t require alcohol. DonkeyApple said:
98elise said:
It's a tiny amount, and less than is consumed by the fossil fuel industry.
Hydrogen cars "exhaust" water as a by product.
Water is a pollutant. The amount added to a local weather system altera that weather system. You wouldn't want millions of cars in an urban setting all pumping out water additional to that which the weather cell has been defined by. Hydrogen cars "exhaust" water as a by product.
Obviously, we are never going to have millions of cars using hydrogen fuel cells but it's important to appreciate that all excess emissions of any substance is a pollutant.
But the real issue of a hydrogen economy is the relentless and unstoppable leaking of man made hydrogen into the atmosphere.
This is why hydrogen must be made and used at source which presents enormous issues re matching supply with demand and stable pricing if you are trying to use random and momentary excesses of renewable energy to tie in with a constant demand from the local transport system. It just doesn't work in reality. The storage buffer solution just adds to the bad economics as well as magnifying the pollution.
Grey hydrogen is efficient because it is made from fossil fuels and the industry that uses it is located next door. There's no need for storage and the hydrogen production can be increased and decreased in a dial to instantly match the industrial demand ebb and flows next door.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=hydrogen+pipeline+map&am...
The US has about 1600 miles of hydrogen pipelines, mostly in the Gulf coast area which also has some cavern storage.
HustleRussell said:
DonkeyApple said:
But the real comedy one is the claim that atmospheric carbon is to be used for making the alcohol. That is a total lie. The carbon has to be an industrial source to be available in the volumes required. There is barely any carbon in the actual atmosphere and the size and number of fans needed to draw enough air through the catalysts to try and extract some carbon would change every weather system on the planet and suck in every bird and insect.
You’re continuing to wilfully ignore the existence of electrolysis process which doesn’t require alcohol. 
Why has the HIF project, currently the only source of constant, renewable electricity switched from the original business case which was to ship H2 to Genoa to a revised model whereby the H2 is converted to alcohol at source for storage and transportation?
Why is the EU seeking to legally define what 'excess renewable energy' will be?
And why does the hydrogen industry not store or transport H2 and never has and never will?
Seriously, this is really simple physics and chemistry of the H atom and people are attempting to argue that the laws of physics will be changed so that H2 can be commercially viable for private road transport against batteries?
Just consider for one minute the UK's path to renewable energy as an example. We will end up with a considerable expansion of the production of excess wind energy. Some people are attempting to argue that it will be economically sound to convert this electricity into a chemical medium, store it, transport it via all new trans U.K. pipelines and then sell it to private car users? That is very obviously utterly stupid and not what is being planned at all, despite weird arguments that it is.
Now consider that over the next 30 years the UK's fleet of 35m fossil fuel cars will all be transitioning to electric. What's going to happen to the excess energy that's produced today when millions of cars stop using fossil fuel energy and use electricity? That's right, the excess goes away. Now consider the 30m domestic households that will also be switching to electric heating from fossil fuel heating. Another enormous energy switch.
Also consider the ease at which electricity can be exported to the European mainland, which in turn allows for electricity shifting to the East of Europe where the largest renewable deficit will be.
Why would the U.K. use half of any excess to create a gas that can't efficiently be stored, can't be efficiently transported and where when used as a road car fuel is at least triple the price of the electricity it is made from when any excess electricity can be distributed to domestic cars and homes via pricing and exported to the continent, again converting it instantly to money without having to run and create some weird and wonderfully inefficient chemical industry.
Maybe the clues lie in the bulk of H2 tales emanating from either provincial governments liberally handing out free money or industries that know they can't meet net zero targets.
People are right that the production of GH is set to increase rapidly and considerably over the next 30 years but some people are just completely wrong as to why, how and who will be using it. That's all.
Mikehig said:
DonkeyApple said:
98elise said:
It's a tiny amount, and less than is consumed by the fossil fuel industry.
Hydrogen cars "exhaust" water as a by product.
Water is a pollutant. The amount added to a local weather system altera that weather system. You wouldn't want millions of cars in an urban setting all pumping out water additional to that which the weather cell has been defined by. Hydrogen cars "exhaust" water as a by product.
Obviously, we are never going to have millions of cars using hydrogen fuel cells but it's important to appreciate that all excess emissions of any substance is a pollutant.
But the real issue of a hydrogen economy is the relentless and unstoppable leaking of man made hydrogen into the atmosphere.
This is why hydrogen must be made and used at source which presents enormous issues re matching supply with demand and stable pricing if you are trying to use random and momentary excesses of renewable energy to tie in with a constant demand from the local transport system. It just doesn't work in reality. The storage buffer solution just adds to the bad economics as well as magnifying the pollution.
Grey hydrogen is efficient because it is made from fossil fuels and the industry that uses it is located next door. There's no need for storage and the hydrogen production can be increased and decreased in a dial to instantly match the industrial demand ebb and flows next door.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=hydrogen+pipeline+map&am...
The US has about 1600 miles of hydrogen pipelines, mostly in the Gulf coast area which also has some cavern storage.
https://www.breakinglatest.news/business/hydrogen-...
LasseV said:
And whole Germany gas pipeline network is compatible with hydrogen.
https://www.breakinglatest.news/business/hydrogen-...
Lol, have you got a more reliable source?https://www.breakinglatest.news/business/hydrogen-...
And how about replying to the posters who reply to you, instead of just posting more hydrogen fairy tales.
Undercover McNoName said:
LasseV said:
And whole Germany gas pipeline network is compatible with hydrogen.
https://www.breakinglatest.news/business/hydrogen-...
Lol, have you got a more reliable source?https://www.breakinglatest.news/business/hydrogen-...
And how about replying to the posters who reply to you, instead of just posting more hydrogen fairy tales.
You can translate it. It is a real thing.
Replying them is waste of my time. They are writing nonsense and EU is actually doing opposide things what they are writing. So there is that. Eu is scaling up RE and hydrogen is a very important piece of EU's energy infrastructure. Including road transport. Electricity was today less than 1 sent per kwh in Finland....
Hydrogen will be a huge part of the Le Mans in the future. And in motorsport in general.
"In 2026, we will have a hydrogen category at Le Mans at the same level as Hypercar,” said Fillon.
“The idea is to introduce H2 category progressively after 2026, and the idea in 2030 to have 100% of the top category with hydrogen.”
“We are officially announcing that both technologies, fuel cell and hydrogen internal combustion engine, will be accepted and authorised for manufacturers wishing to enter the 24 Hours in the hydrogen category.”
It will be a very interesting to follow which will be a new king, h2 ice or FCEV powertrain. Race is on.
"In 2026, we will have a hydrogen category at Le Mans at the same level as Hypercar,” said Fillon.
“The idea is to introduce H2 category progressively after 2026, and the idea in 2030 to have 100% of the top category with hydrogen.”
“We are officially announcing that both technologies, fuel cell and hydrogen internal combustion engine, will be accepted and authorised for manufacturers wishing to enter the 24 Hours in the hydrogen category.”
It will be a very interesting to follow which will be a new king, h2 ice or FCEV powertrain. Race is on.
98elise said:
tamore said:
i see shell has closed all their H2 filling stations in the UK. down to 6 now. doesn't feel like the fuel of the future.
They've been closed a while now. Hydrogen has a future, its just very limited for passenger cars.
we will use every gram of green hydrogen in converted industrial processes (steel and cement in particular), and perhaps some niche uses as JCB are pursuing. once it isn't genuine green hydrogen (ie made with excess renewable power), then it's all nonsense. the very notion of 'excess renewable power' is going to be up for debate once we can store it effectively in grid scale solutions. H2 has no part in this either.
tamore said:
i see shell has closed all their H2 filling stations in the UK. down to 6 now. doesn't feel like the fuel of the future.
It is not a fuel of the future, it is fuel for this day and age.This is from test Ioniq 6 vs Nexo. 2 day 1500km trip and Nexo did kick Ioniq's ass.
"Our general conclusion, regardless of the discussion whether you can make electricity or hydrogen in the most environmentally friendly way: hydrogen is not the solution of the future, it is already convenient to use today with technology that can be used now. And it is a solid alternative to the electric car."
2. The hydrogen car has a lot of commercial potential
The trip clocked in at 1,457 kilometers. Joost refueled for 118.57 euros and had five percent battery capacity left back in Kontich. All in all, Brecht filled up with hydrogen for 190.30 euros and had 31 percent of his tank left on arrival. A difference of 70 euros, which would of course have been smaller if Brecht had only had a five percent 'surplus'. So: although hydrogen has not yet been widely rolled out commercially, the price of a refuelling is already competitive compared to electricity.
Actually, that also applies to the price of the car. The Nexo costs 73,990 euros. The Ioniq 6 with most powerful battery, as we got it for this exercise, 67,250 euros. We can only conclude that the H2 car has great commercial potential.
3. The hydrogen car has the greatest ease of use
In terms of ease of use, hydrogen has already surpassed the electric car. It took Brecht five to six minutes to refuel. That is comparable to what we have been used to with petrol and diesel for years. Of course, this has consequences for travel time. While Joost was still somewhere in Germany, Brecht was already cooking pasta at home.
Our general conclusion, regardless of the discussion whether you can make electricity or hydrogen in the most environmentally friendly way: hydrogen is not the solution of the future, it is already convenient to use today with technology that can be used now. And it is a solid alternative to the electric car."
https://www.hln.be/mobiliteit/de-grote-test-onze-j...
Good article to read. Of course im living in EU and you are living in post-brexit UK. H2 passenger cars will be a big part of EU mobility and we will have a EU wide hydrogen station network. So there ia that, i don't know what UK gov is doing for this matter.
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