Making evs drive like ice cars
Discussion
Evanivitch said:
How many performance cars can you buy today with a clutch pedal? EV didn't kill the manual gearbox.
That's something only manufacturers can answer.Purists often cry out for a manual version.
It's almost as if with the increase in power available it's necessary to remove the chance of human error. A mechanical overrev is nigh on impossible to save on a manual but an auto will not allow it.
Gary C said:
Evanivitch said:
How many performance cars can you buy today with a clutch pedal? EV didn't kill the manual gearbox.
No, CO2 emissions did that.Vantagemech.. said:
So you enjoy driving white goods?
I guess you're so young you've never heard of heel and toe and think the CVT a masterpiece.
Perhaps you simply see a car as an alternative to publc transport, cars for those that hate driving.
Perhaps that would be a fitting line for some of the vehicles available today.
I'm not sure where this view of electric cars as 'white goods' has come from. I can honestly say that I've rarely had as much fun in a car as I did when my wife had a i3. Instant torque away from the lights was something I never got bored of.I guess you're so young you've never heard of heel and toe and think the CVT a masterpiece.
Perhaps you simply see a car as an alternative to publc transport, cars for those that hate driving.
Perhaps that would be a fitting line for some of the vehicles available today.
As someone alluded to earlier on, speed restrictions etc make most performance ice cars pointless. Several have mentioned waiting for a EV hot hatch, well guess what, they are already here! I don't think I was ever beaten away from the lights in that car, and up to 35/40 mph it was pretty much uncatchable, which never ceases to be fun. Admittedly after 40 it ran out of puff but when 95% of my trips are on 30/40mph roads that never really mattered.
I've never driven a Tesla but I believe they are even quicker. So if you haven't tried an EV, maybe give one a try.
Richtea1970 said:
I'm not sure where this view of electric cars as 'white goods' has come from. I can honestly say that I've rarely had as much fun in a car as I did when my wife had a i3. Instant torque away from the lights was something I never got bored of.
As someone alluded to earlier on, speed restrictions etc make most performance ice cars pointless. Several have mentioned waiting for a EV hot hatch, well guess what, they are already here! I don't think I was ever beaten away from the lights in that car, and up to 35/40 mph it was pretty much uncatchable, which never ceases to be fun. Admittedly after 40 it ran out of puff but when 95% of my trips are on 30/40mph roads that never really mattered.
I've never driven a Tesla but I believe they are even quicker. So if you haven't tried an EV, maybe give one a try.
Tesla's are IMO pig ugly. Whether they are fast is again a matter of requirements. As that video of the Porsche launching itself off the driveway onto another car, sometimes 100% torque isn't what's required 😁 Sure I'd like a go in one, but still wouldn't look at one for its styling.As someone alluded to earlier on, speed restrictions etc make most performance ice cars pointless. Several have mentioned waiting for a EV hot hatch, well guess what, they are already here! I don't think I was ever beaten away from the lights in that car, and up to 35/40 mph it was pretty much uncatchable, which never ceases to be fun. Admittedly after 40 it ran out of puff but when 95% of my trips are on 30/40mph roads that never really mattered.
I've never driven a Tesla but I believe they are even quicker. So if you haven't tried an EV, maybe give one a try.
Many reviews also state their handling has little feedback and needs a change in the settings to give the feeling of what the steering is doing.
In comparison (Tesla 3) to a diesel BMW it's only 0.8 of a second faster 0-60. Hardly an enormous difference that is banded about.
I like manual gearboxes. I like an engine note. I like to feel what the car is doing regarding my input.
Call me a grandad, dinosaur whatever you like, but there are as many things against EV's as there are for. I'm happy with the cars I have, I can't see spending £30k on something that can only do 1/3 of what I need it to as a good investment.
Vantagemech.. said:
In comparison (Tesla 3) to a diesel BMW it's only 0.8 of a second faster 0-60. Hardly an enormous difference that is banded about.
I think you've missed the point, I quoted 0-40, thats where the fun is and it is a big difference. As I said, try one, you might surprise yourself. I'm not anti ICE or EV, I like them all. I drive cars, motorcycles and trucks and I'd never write off something I'd never tried.
Vantagemech.. said:
Richtea1970 said:
I'm not sure where this view of electric cars as 'white goods' has come from. I can honestly say that I've rarely had as much fun in a car as I did when my wife had a i3. Instant torque away from the lights was something I never got bored of.
As someone alluded to earlier on, speed restrictions etc make most performance ice cars pointless. Several have mentioned waiting for a EV hot hatch, well guess what, they are already here! I don't think I was ever beaten away from the lights in that car, and up to 35/40 mph it was pretty much uncatchable, which never ceases to be fun. Admittedly after 40 it ran out of puff but when 95% of my trips are on 30/40mph roads that never really mattered.
I've never driven a Tesla but I believe they are even quicker. So if you haven't tried an EV, maybe give one a try.
Tesla's are IMO pig ugly. Whether they are fast is again a matter of requirements. As that video of the Porsche launching itself off the driveway onto another car, sometimes 100% torque isn't what's required ?? Sure I'd like a go in one, but still wouldn't look at one for its styling.As someone alluded to earlier on, speed restrictions etc make most performance ice cars pointless. Several have mentioned waiting for a EV hot hatch, well guess what, they are already here! I don't think I was ever beaten away from the lights in that car, and up to 35/40 mph it was pretty much uncatchable, which never ceases to be fun. Admittedly after 40 it ran out of puff but when 95% of my trips are on 30/40mph roads that never really mattered.
I've never driven a Tesla but I believe they are even quicker. So if you haven't tried an EV, maybe give one a try.
Many reviews also state their handling has little feedback and needs a change in the settings to give the feeling of what the steering is doing.
In comparison (Tesla 3) to a diesel BMW it's only 0.8 of a second faster 0-60. Hardly an enormous difference that is banded about.
I like manual gearboxes. I like an engine note. I like to feel what the car is doing regarding my input.
Call me a grandad, dinosaur whatever you like, but there are as many things against EV's as there are for. I'm happy with the cars I have, I can't see spending £30k on something that can only do 1/3 of what I need it to as a good investment.
A lack of feedback is also an issue shared with most modern cars due to electric steering, and you would need to drive a Tesla to appreciate the performance difference in the real world rather than just looking at numbers.
You really should drive one yourself before dismissing out of hand. Not saying you'll change your mind but will at least be commenting from a position of personal experience rather than cherry picking comments that confirm your views.
SWoll said:
Gary C said:
Evanivitch said:
How many performance cars can you buy today with a clutch pedal? EV didn't kill the manual gearbox.
No, CO2 emissions did that.Customer demand followed.
SWoll said:
You really should drive one yourself before dismissing out of hand. Not saying you'll change your mind but will at least be commenting from a position of personal experience rather than cherry picking comments that confirm your views.
That's a fair point. I also agree the new BMWs are pig ugly, it was merely a like for like comparison that I found.It stated the BMW also had better handing.
I think I said earlier, they are out of the price range of most people, while Tesla's are deemed to be the pinnacle of EV excellence, they aren't without fault.
Now if someone were to give me one for a years trial.... 😁
Vantagemech.. said:
SWoll said:
You really should drive one yourself before dismissing out of hand. Not saying you'll change your mind but will at least be commenting from a position of personal experience rather than cherry picking comments that confirm your views.
That's a fair point. I also agree the new BMWs are pig ugly, it was merely a like for like comparison that I found.It stated the BMW also had better handing.
I think I said earlier, they are out of the price range of most people, while Tesla's are deemed to be the pinnacle of EV excellence, they aren't without fault.
Now if someone were to give me one for a years trial.... ??
You've never even driven an EV.
Ps. The Tesla Model 3 looks fine to me.
Vantagemech.. said:
SWoll said:
You really should drive one yourself before dismissing out of hand. Not saying you'll change your mind but will at least be commenting from a position of personal experience rather than cherry picking comments that confirm your views.
That's a fair point. I also agree the new BMWs are pig ugly, it was merely a like for like comparison that I found.It stated the BMW also had better handing.
I think I said earlier, they are out of the price range of most people, while Tesla's are deemed to be the pinnacle of EV excellence, they aren't without fault.
Now if someone were to give me one for a years trial.... ??
Gary C said:
Nah, the manufactures went for the expense of designing and fitting DSGs etc because they could program them to get the lowest CO2 emissions in the test.
Customer demand followed.
The 10:1 ratio suggests the demand was very much already there.Customer demand followed.
Edited by SWoll on Tuesday 2nd March 09:07
The 'EV as white goods' criticism is a common one. I can understand it - my first EV drive was a Mitsubishi i-MiEV (aka C-Zero) and that was a super basic city car for people who just want to get somewhere local, with no thrills or frills. But that's a huge car market.
The EV market has already changed and will carry on maturing. You can now buy a decent amount of luxury, a stupid amount of performance, a useful range, etc. And we're still in just the second wave of EVs.
Those who now rue the easy torque of the EV will adapt. A revvy engine/motor where you constantly have to stir the gearstick to keep it in the power band - and still people in ordinary EVs are getting past you? That'll get old quite quickly.
The EV market has already changed and will carry on maturing. You can now buy a decent amount of luxury, a stupid amount of performance, a useful range, etc. And we're still in just the second wave of EVs.
Those who now rue the easy torque of the EV will adapt. A revvy engine/motor where you constantly have to stir the gearstick to keep it in the power band - and still people in ordinary EVs are getting past you? That'll get old quite quickly.
Vantagemech.. said:
Tesla's are IMO pig ugly. Whether they are fast is again a matter of requirements. As that video of the Porsche launching itself off the driveway onto another car, sometimes 100% torque isn't what's required ?? Sure I'd like a go in one, but still wouldn't look at one for its styling.
Many reviews also state their handling has little feedback and needs a change in the settings to give the feeling of what the steering is doing.
In comparison (Tesla 3) to a diesel BMW it's only 0.8 of a second faster 0-60. Hardly an enormous difference that is banded about.
I like manual gearboxes. I like an engine note. I like to feel what the car is doing regarding my input.
Call me a grandad, dinosaur whatever you like, but there are as many things against EV's as there are for. I'm happy with the cars I have, I can't see spending £30k on something that can only do 1/3 of what I need it to as a good investment.
I totally get your concerns about the lack of tactility with modern cars, but I think the problem is modern cars not EVs.Many reviews also state their handling has little feedback and needs a change in the settings to give the feeling of what the steering is doing.
In comparison (Tesla 3) to a diesel BMW it's only 0.8 of a second faster 0-60. Hardly an enormous difference that is banded about.
I like manual gearboxes. I like an engine note. I like to feel what the car is doing regarding my input.
Call me a grandad, dinosaur whatever you like, but there are as many things against EV's as there are for. I'm happy with the cars I have, I can't see spending £30k on something that can only do 1/3 of what I need it to as a good investment.
I had an early BMW i3 as a second car when they were new. When circumstances changed I swapped it, and the other (manual gearbox) car for a 340i xDrive.
When we were choosing the car I optioned the BMW 'sound and performance package' which added about 50 bhp and 50NM onto the 340 as coming out of an i3 the stock 340 engine felt unresponsive. It bangs and crackles which the children like on a pass, but it bangs and crackles when I switch traction off to drive around town at 30 kph in the snow which I find cringeworthy. It drones on the motorway even in comfort.
The car has zero steering feel and the steering isn't linear making even after 4 years judging it to be not great. It came with 19" wheels and rock-hard run flats but I managed to put on some 17" winter wheels which I use about 7 months a year and prefer and the run-flats got swapped out for the summer. It's hard to balance the car or get the weight transferring as the electronics get in the way.
The thing I like most about the car is the gadgets, the matrix headlights, the adaptive cruise. It sits nicely on motorways quite well though something more comfort-orientated like a E class would better that. I live 90 minutes from the Stelvio and have never once wanted to go out for a drive. It's fast but totally unrewarding and frankly dull. I describe it as 'white goods'. From a drivers perspective I preferred the i3 which had character and encouraged you to learn how to drive it (its handling was far from faultless).
My point is that the points that you mention about EVs are actually a problem with many or most modern cars. I really miss a manual gearbox, I miss old steering with feel but I think we're in the minority. Most people don't care. BMW haven't sold a manual-gearbox 3 series here for some time. Few people care about learning how to heel-and-toe, or how to left-foot-brake a manual car for better weight transfer.
EVs car offer the driver something different than ICE cars can. Their instantaneous response makes you realise how 'sluggish' the responses of a modern ICE engine is. Judging deceleration with engine braking reminds me of driving manual cars where you do the same with engine braking. Weight is certainly an issue but my i3 felt much nicer in that regards than the 3 series - the i3 actually had some characteristics which reminded me of my old Lotus.
Edited by chandrew on Tuesday 2nd March 09:42
I really think the i3 is underrated, probably down to its 'unique' looks!
If that car had had a 2 seater sports car body shell chucked on it rather than the rather odd mpv/shopping cart look they went for, I think it would have been a future classic.
I think the first manufacturer that brings out a responsibility priced, sporty looking 2 seater EV (think MX5 type thing) will really be on to a winner.
If that car had had a 2 seater sports car body shell chucked on it rather than the rather odd mpv/shopping cart look they went for, I think it would have been a future classic.
I think the first manufacturer that brings out a responsibility priced, sporty looking 2 seater EV (think MX5 type thing) will really be on to a winner.
Kawasicki said:
HustleRussell said:
Automatic and semi-automatic are increasing in popularity because today’s technology has removed all of the disadvantages which used to exist compared to manuals.
That’s hardly true is it? All of the disadvantages haven’t been removed.Manual used to shift faster than auto, now DCT is considerably faster.
Manual used to be much more efficient than auto.
Automatic used to be much heavier than manual, this has decreased to the point of insignificance with the high overall weight of cars these days.
Automatic used to carry an increased risk of unreliability but nowadays they generally last the life of the car.
Automatic used to have fewer ratios than Manual but now it’s the other way around.
Manual used to be the only way to get the gear you want when you want it- no more.
Hill starts used to be a pain with some autos- fixed.
All of my cars have been manual, and I have no intention of buying an auto of any kind for as long as I can put it off...
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