Batteries are not the Solution, Synthetic Fuels maybe

[Boxbrownie]

Carlososos said:

Burning is a dead horse. We don’t need to burn to survive.

When we were cavemen we burnt stuff…….we should be past that by now.

[craigjm]

The problem with all these debates is the word SOLUTION. This suggests that there is a way of solving the problem and thats it we can carry on. Electric may not be the final destination, hydrogen may not, synthetic fuels may not. There is no real final destination as needs and use keep changing over time.

[NMNeil]

NDNDNDND said:

When are you next planning to fly, or buy something that was made in China?

Do we have a choice?
I went to buy a new coffee maker from Walmart and every last one is made in China. Same for the microwaves, stand mixers etc.
But it gets worse.

But the chilies sold in Walmart are labeled "Produce of China"

[ATG]

NDNDNDND said:

ATG said:

When a vastly more energy efficient technology is already available, why would you try to go down this route?

You're doing exactly what I said in my first post on this thread - you're being completely binary about it. E-fuels aren't simply going to replace oil directly, but they will be part of the solution.

No I'm not. I'm putting some numbers to the idea that synthetic fuels could be a significant substitute for oil derived fuels. They won't be. They'll be a fuel of last resort.

[Europa Jon]

Can we all agree that BEVs ARE here now, and will be for several years? They may not suit everyone, especially those who need to travel from London to Scotland in one go, non-stop, but they serve a purpose right now. That's not to say a better thing like synthetic hydrocarbon fuel won't come along in the future. I personally can't imagine long-haul battery-powered flight for at least 30 years, so such a fuel would be useful. Long-term, hydrogen from electrolysis from renewable generation seems a good idea in many ways. At present the technology for these new fuels is too new to be commercially viable, let alone the environmental considerations that may arise.

[Oilchange]

I agree, they have a purpose and fill an air quality gap that diesels particularly and particulately need to vacate. Especially in inner cities where their pollutants affect peoples breathing.
Keep petrol cars
Get rid of diesel cars, replace with PHEV and BEV.
Job done.

[hunter 66]

EV is at the very earliest days of its development ..... which will move faster now big companies like VW are getting involved ..... yes synthetic fuels for racing , as ICE on the road will be obsolete . Plaid does 0-60 in under 2 secs and soon will be lighter and handle even better .
Yes I personally like slow noisy cars ......but they are the past sadly

[craigjm]

Europa Jon said:

Can we all agree that BEVs ARE here now, and will be for several years? They may not suit everyone, especially those who need to travel from London to Scotland in one go, non-stop, but they serve a purpose right now. That's not to say a better thing like synthetic hydrocarbon fuel won't come along in the future. I personally can't imagine long-haul battery-powered flight for at least 30 years, so such a fuel would be useful. Long-term, hydrogen from electrolysis from renewable generation seems a good idea in many ways. At present the technology for these new fuels is too new to be commercially viable, let alone the environmental considerations that may arise.

Agreed. I also think the “doesn’t suit me” argument is a bit of deflection for some people. Listening to some you would think they are commuting London to Moscow 6 days a week. I’m reality current range suits the vast majority of people in countries like the U.K. solve the charging time and availability issue and people will adopt them en mass.

[Polite M135 driver]

craigjm said:

Agreed. I also think the “doesn’t suit me” argument is a bit of deflection for some people. Listening to some you would think they are commuting London to Moscow 6 days a week. I’m reality current range suits the vast majority of people in countries like the U.K. solve the charging time and availability issue and people will adopt them en mass.

This is a good point I think. We also need to remember that ‘electric cars + society’ won’t just be what we have now, but with electric cars. New technologies change the world they are put into. Offices+email aren’t just like the offices of old, but with email instead of internal way. The way we work has changed now that we all use email. If everyone has electric cars, and battery/charging technology doesn’t get us there in terms of range/speed of charging(though I think it will) cars as long distance travel might just shrivel up… people will behave different ways. The inability of the technology to cover long range will just become irrelevant.

[jason61c]

hunter 66 said:

EV is at the very earliest days of its development ..... which will move faster now big companies like VW are getting involved ..... yes synthetic fuels for racing , as ICE on the road will be obsolete . Plaid does 0-60 in under 2 secs and soon will be lighter and handle even better .
Yes I personally like slow noisy cars ......but they are the past sadly

I'd like to see an actual test of it doing 0-60 in under 2. also like to see how repeatable it is.

I'd also like to see how long it takes to complete a 5 lap race of the ring against a vw golf.

They're still slow compared to race cars.

[otolith]

Harry Metcalfe observed in his last video that Euro7 emissions standards are likely to kill the ICE before it’s explicitly banned. This will apply to synthetically fuelled ICEs too.

[tones61]

Fossil fuels are dead,


Moonshine IS the future :-)

[ruggedscotty]

NDNDNDND said:

Ice_blue_tvr said:

TheRainMaker said:

Will be handy to keep classics on the road though.

And personally I think that's all it should be used for.

I love ICE. But I don't care for it in a humdrum daily driver.

I'm sure I've seen it mooted somewhere that e-fuels could find themselves being blended with oil-based petrols and diesel as a substitute for ethanol - as a way of starting to reduce the carbon impact of the existing fleet. The upshot is that e-fuel would likely have fewer negative side effects on engines than ethanol.

there is a battle going on here - a desperation to keep using hydrocarbon fuels, efuel is still hydrocarbon and what ever you do when you burn a fuel you generate noxious emissions. 100,000 cars each with an engine buring a hydrocarbon fuel is going to be so inefficient compared to a power station generating electricity to charge 100,000 electric vehicles.

a fuel cell car is a battery electric vehicle with a range extender in the form of a hydrogen fuel cell. extra complication of the fuel cell is better off being removed and that space filled with more battery.

we want to remove the hydrocarbon fuels we want to get rid of petrol distribution and get that consigned to the history books.

its a pivot point, a point that we are changing and embracing. and the sooner the better.

[SWoll]

jason61c said:

hunter 66 said:

EV is at the very earliest days of its development ..... which will move faster now big companies like VW are getting involved ..... yes synthetic fuels for racing , as ICE on the road will be obsolete . Plaid does 0-60 in under 2 secs and soon will be lighter and handle even better .
Yes I personally like slow noisy cars ......but they are the past sadly

I'd like to see an actual test of it doing 0-60 in under 2. also like to see how repeatable it is.

I'd also like to see how long it takes to complete a 5 lap race of the ring against a vw golf.

They're still slow compared to race cars.

Certainly a few 'conditions' that need to be met, but here you go.



https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-s/2021...

Ref the ring race, I imagine it could just sit behind the golf for 50 miles using limited power and the blast past on the last lap?

[Oilchange]

no it really could not.

[jason61c]

SWoll said:

Certainly a few 'conditions' that need to be met, but here you go.



https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-s/2021...

Ref the ring race, I imagine it could just sit behind the golf for 50 miles using limited power and the blast past on the last lap?

Ok a quick golf not a tdi 😀

[SWoll]

Oilchange said:

no it really could not.

You don't think it could cover the 60 or so miles quicker than a 1.0 Golf being driven at full tilt? I doubt it would even break sweat personally.

jason61c said:

Ok a quick golf not a tdi ??

Ah, I see the goalposts for the hypothetical scenario have moved.

Edited by SWoll on Sunday 20th June 23:27

[otolith]

Well, if it can’t do five laps of the ring, it’s dead to me. That’s my route to the shops.

[jason61c]

otolith said:

Well, if it can’t do five laps of the ring, it’s dead to me. That’s my route to the shops.

You do understand the point of that. Epic in a straight line, however not a race winner. I’d, once we find something that’ll do that with green credentials, we’ve got a winner

[ZesPak]

otolith said:

Well, if it can’t do five laps of the ring, it’s dead to me. That’s my route to the shops.

jason61c said:

You do understand the point of that. Epic in a straight line, however not a race winner. I’d, once we find something that’ll do that with green credentials, we’ve got a winner

You do understand that that's not really it's raison d'être, right? It WILL trounce nearly everything, and especially everything in it's price class. And anything that comes close will be seriously compromised in several other ways.
It's like saying a Golf R is a terrible car and VW should be ashamed of themselves as a Caterham of similar price will wipe the floor with it.

What IS your infatuation with Tesla all about though?

PS: I would up it to 10 laps, as I'm pretty sure it won't need to charge keeping up with any Golf for 5 laps.

Edited by ZesPak on Monday 21st June 07:51