Tesla unlikely to Survive (Vol. 3)
Discussion
Burwood said:
TameBritishMuslim said:
Smiljan said:
TameBritishMuslim said:
The diatribe of defecation on these threads is pure gold! 
Amen your contributions are particularly amusing. If I’d made millions on Tesla stock like you have I wouldn’t spend my days pumping the stock. Odd.Pumping it to whom? Odd bod and junior on here who act like short sellers and yet have no money to short it?
. I await the retort
TameBritishMuslim said:
In light of recent posts over the past few days on this thread, just thought I'd re-post this here from the last few pages of vol. 2. as I guess some of you are in a better position to comment than the CEOs of VW and Ford:
Herbert Deiss CEO of VW says:
Today, Tesla sets the standards here. They build the car around the software. Updates are already part of everyday life for Tesla customers.
Tesla has long been appreciated for the software, range, and acceleration of its cars but has had problems with quality. The production was ridiculed. But our main competitor is learning fast. The quality is getting better, the customer feedback more positive.
And in Brandenburg, Tesla wants to build half a million cars with 7,000 people – direct and indirect. And with an impressive productivity: expected 90 units per hour in one line, 10 hours per car.
In Zwickau, we are at over 30 hours, we want to achieve 20 hours next year – we originally started with a project target of 16 hours.
I don’t need to mention here what all this means on the stock market. Tesla has unlimited access to money and resources due to its high valuation. These numbers are what drive me to point out this new competition and not turn a blind eye.
Even if I stop talking about Elon Musk, he’s here to stay, revolutionizing our industry and quickly becoming more competitive.
The Tesla Model 3 was the best-selling car in Europe in September, ahead of the Golf. And this despite the fact that Tesla does not even build in Europe yet. Tesla only imports so far.
Only those who understand and have an eye on the competition can win. Tesla is the benchmark today, and other strong startups have entered our market from China.
Jim Farley CEO of Ford says:
If Ford was a trillion-dollar company, our stock would be worth about $250 a share. Think about the value creation of Tesla right now. And they have resources, smart people, the Model 3 is now the best-selling vehicle in Europe. Not electric. Flat out. It was the best-selling vehicle in the UK. Most months, it’s the best-selling vehicle in California. Not just electric, but overall. If we’re going to succeed, we can’t ignore this competition anymore.
Look at Tesla, why are they doing what they’re doing and what can we learn from them. First, they have a direct model… There’s no one in between. They make it so easy. Three or four clicks configuring the vehicle with not a lot of complexity to delivering it to the customer. Simple, non-negotiated pricing. A large reservation system as well as remote service.
Second, Tesla maximizes use of electrons in the vehicle. No one does it better than they do. Their customers pay less for a better battery. Their focus … after they launch the vehicle, their obsession after the launch of the vehicle, to make the customer experience better, to re-engineer the electronic components, to simplify, to address quality based on data coming off the vehicles, to reduce the bill of material based on how people actually use the vehicle, to drive vertical integration, so they do more and they solve the hardest problems at Tesla. And they manage every electron so they can be as efficient as possible with the expense of battery.
Third, the product itself is highly differentiated from the rest of the ICE field and complexity is tiny, compared to OEMs. That allows them to have enormous reuse. Reuse that we’ve never seen in our ICE business. Tesla can scale quickly because of that complexity reduction. They can drive cost down, which they have. They can keep processes simple.
High praise indeed, but if your "upstart that doesn't even know how to build cars" outsells everything else on the market, they are hard to ignore.
As for the complexity, Munro did a round table regarding the architecture of the Y with a couple of competitors.
Most of the consensus was that the decisions for this were "probably what they have on the shelf" or "how they're used to do it", none of them were "it was the most logical/smart thing to do".
As for the complexity, Munro did a round table regarding the architecture of the Y with a couple of competitors.
Most of the consensus was that the decisions for this were "probably what they have on the shelf" or "how they're used to do it", none of them were "it was the most logical/smart thing to do".
Some kind of messed up top trumps when you start counting modules and data busses to judge how well a car is made.
Tesla fans are complete lunatics.
If Munro built cars they have 2 wheel nuts, paper doors and have the longevity of a ripe banana left in the sun. They are obsessed with removing everything that makes up a vehicle in the name of profit.
They only became internet famous because they slated the first Model 3 they tore down and strangely Sandy Munro then came into a load of Tesla stock and attitudes changed. Bizarre.
Anyway which direction is the stock wildly pivoting today? Up or is it down?
Tesla fans are complete lunatics.
If Munro built cars they have 2 wheel nuts, paper doors and have the longevity of a ripe banana left in the sun. They are obsessed with removing everything that makes up a vehicle in the name of profit.
They only became internet famous because they slated the first Model 3 they tore down and strangely Sandy Munro then came into a load of Tesla stock and attitudes changed. Bizarre.
Anyway which direction is the stock wildly pivoting today? Up or is it down?
While I’m here making random Tesla comments, I still can’t believe the CEO of Tesla which owns a factory in Germany actually compared the Canadian Prime Minister with Adolf Hitler on social media and the company hasn’t made any statement or reprimanded him.
The guy is like his fans, a lunatic.
The guy is like his fans, a lunatic.
Smiljan said:
Some kind of messed up top trumps when you start counting modules and data busses to judge how well a car is made.
... what does that has to do with anything?Herbert Deiss CEO of VW said:
And in Brandenburg, Tesla wants to build half a million cars with 7,000 people – direct and indirect. And with an impressive productivity: expected 90 units per hour in one line, 10 hours per car.
In Zwickau, we are at over 30 hours, we want to achieve 20 hours next year – we originally started with a project target of 16 hours.
In Zwickau, we are at over 30 hours, we want to achieve 20 hours next year – we originally started with a project target of 16 hours.
Jim Farley CEO of Ford said:
Third, the product itself is highly differentiated from the rest of the ICE field and complexity is tiny, compared to OEMs. That allows them to have enormous reuse. Reuse that we’ve never seen in our ICE business. Tesla can scale quickly because of that complexity reduction. They can drive cost down, which they have. They can keep processes simple. }}}
Seriously, you are in a world of your own if you can't reconcile two subsequent posts.I hope this doesn’t become a race to the bottom of who can throw a car together the quickest and stuff the notion of what a customer might want from the design and material choice. Munro praised Teslas roof lining because it could be cheap cloth rather than alcantara or anything we’d recognise as having sound deadening or tactile touch.
10 hours of labour is what? £200? £400? On a £40k car that’s less than 1%, not insignificant but not a game changer.
Knowing the price of everything doesn’t mean you know the value of everything.
10 hours of labour is what? £200? £400? On a £40k car that’s less than 1%, not insignificant but not a game changer.
Knowing the price of everything doesn’t mean you know the value of everything.
Smiljan said:
Some kind of messed up top trumps when you start counting modules and data busses to judge how well a car is made.
Tesla fans are complete lunatics.
If Munro built cars they have 2 wheel nuts, paper doors and have the longevity of a ripe banana left in the sun. They are obsessed with removing everything that makes up a vehicle in the name of profit.
They only became internet famous because they slated the first Model 3 they tore down and strangely Sandy Munro then came into a load of Tesla stock and attitudes changed. Bizarre.
Anyway which direction is the stock wildly pivoting today? Up or is it down?
Yeah; Sandy absolutely LOVES the Plaid, everything about it, even the fTesla fans are complete lunatics.
If Munro built cars they have 2 wheel nuts, paper doors and have the longevity of a ripe banana left in the sun. They are obsessed with removing everything that makes up a vehicle in the name of profit.
They only became internet famous because they slated the first Model 3 they tore down and strangely Sandy Munro then came into a load of Tesla stock and attitudes changed. Bizarre.
Anyway which direction is the stock wildly pivoting today? Up or is it down?
king stupid yoke thing. Neglecting the fact that it's hugely overpriced sales gimmick, obviously. I didn't know he had Tesla stock - I think I'll stop watching his stuff....Smiljan said:
Well it’s always nice to counter your incoherent ramblings with my own.
I love how Tesla fans adore the CEO of VW but hate VW. Again weird little bubble to live in.
And skips over the elephant in the room. An operating margin not fundamentally different to BMW or Toyota and of course the trillion dollar valuation. Both of whom generate more earnings and cash than Tesla has done and ever will, imo. I love how Tesla fans adore the CEO of VW but hate VW. Again weird little bubble to live in.
Tesla is like-they are really efficient, they have an edge =1trillion. A PE of 200 for a car company as that is exactly what it is.
Hey TBM, care to post the evidence of 'bile' posts. I see relatively civil discussion. It is you who resorts to name calling when anyone questions the techno king. And at least we live in reality
ZesPak said:
Smiljan said:
Some kind of messed up top trumps when you start counting modules and data busses to judge how well a car is made.
... what does that has to do with anything?Herbert Deiss CEO of VW said:
And in Brandenburg, Tesla wants to build half a million cars with 7,000 people – direct and indirect. And with an impressive productivity: expected 90 units per hour in one line, 10 hours per car.
In Zwickau, we are at over 30 hours, we want to achieve 20 hours next year – we originally started with a project target of 16 hours.
In Zwickau, we are at over 30 hours, we want to achieve 20 hours next year – we originally started with a project target of 16 hours.
Jim Farley CEO of Ford said:
Third, the product itself is highly differentiated from the rest of the ICE field and complexity is tiny, compared to OEMs. That allows them to have enormous reuse. Reuse that we’ve never seen in our ICE business. Tesla can scale quickly because of that complexity reduction. They can drive cost down, which they have. They can keep processes simple. }}}
Seriously, you are in a world of your own if you can't reconcile two subsequent posts.Heres Johnny said:
I hope this doesn’t become a race to the bottom of who can throw a car together the quickest and stuff the notion of what a customer might want from the design and material choice. Munro praised Teslas roof lining because it could be cheap cloth rather than alcantara or anything we’d recognise as having sound deadening or tactile touch.
10 hours of labour is what? £200? £400? On a £40k car that’s less than 1%, not insignificant but not a game changer.
Knowing the price of everything doesn’t mean you know the value of everything.
That's it though. Extrapolate a few cars to 20m or so and bingo, throw in FSD, robots and you get Apple valuations. One small issue is Tesla cars are expensive and always will be so they'll be tapped out at 2-3m cars10 hours of labour is what? £200? £400? On a £40k car that’s less than 1%, not insignificant but not a game changer.
Knowing the price of everything doesn’t mean you know the value of everything.
Burwood said:
That's it though. Extrapolate a few cars to 20m or so and bingo, throw in FSD, robots and you get Apple valuations. One small issue is Tesla cars are expensive and always will be so they'll be tapped out at 2-3m cars
I agree, the pump is real, this is from a year agoarticle said:
There's a good chance you've heard all the Tesla Full Self-Driving Beta news over the past few days. Version 8.2 has arrived, and so far, it seems to be vastly improved. However, we'll reiterate here that no one at InsideEVs is an FSD Beta tester (yet), so we just have to report based on what we watch and learn from other Tesla owners.
With that said, CEO Elon Musk has been teasing this update for some time, and it's supposed to have a long list of improvements. Apparently, the next update (Version 8.3) will be exponentially more advanced. However, Version 9, which is supposed to come in Q2 2021, stands to be the icing on the cake
What is it on now? v11?With that said, CEO Elon Musk has been teasing this update for some time, and it's supposed to have a long list of improvements. Apparently, the next update (Version 8.3) will be exponentially more advanced. However, Version 9, which is supposed to come in Q2 2021, stands to be the icing on the cake
Even Tesla are slowly toning down the language surrounding the software and Musks promise of a hands free coast to coast drive are still merely an idea.
In the time they've grifted this scam thousands of people have paid thousands for a system that has never arrived. In many cases, despite promises, Tesla haven't even upgraded the hardware on their cars to make them capable of even trying to run the beta software let alone the system they paid for.
Now new Model 3 and Y are coming without the redundancy required to run the FSD Beta again despite Tesla saying every car is now capable.
After pumping their Dojo supercomputer as the next grand step towards full autonomy, Musk exploded that lie at the investor day by saying the dojo system doesn't work yet and isn't needed.
The lies come so thick and fast that it's becoming hard to pick out when they tell the truth.
JonChalk said:
Yeah; Sandy absolutely LOVES the Plaid, everything about it, even the fking stupid yoke thing. Neglecting the fact that it's hugely overpriced sales gimmick, obviously. I didn't know he had Tesla stock - I think I'll stop watching his stuff....
Completely agree - I found him before the 'famous' videos, and I was aware of the work that Munro does. However, he dropped into the rabbit hole and hasnt come back. Some of the apologist views he has, specifically around Tesla, seriously undermine his ability to be fair and balanced, in my opinion of course. king stupid yoke thing. Neglecting the fact that it's hugely overpriced sales gimmick, obviously. I didn't know he had Tesla stock - I think I'll stop watching his stuff....Though, I did see that he posted a video today slamming the Plaid's door - yeah, no idea.... but hopefully he be a little more balanced. Its not a case of I am expecting criticism of Tesla products, but less of the justification for something that they do that is clearly BS. It comes with the territory I know, but I just cant reconcile things sometimes.
Smiljan said:
In the time they've grifted this scam thousands of people have paid thousands for a system that has never arrived. In many cases, despite promises, Tesla haven't even upgraded the hardware on their cars to make them capable of even trying to run the beta software let alone the system they paid for.
^ This!!!The often pushed BS around 'all Teslas can do FSD' still gets thrown around and its clearly false. Did you spot the news item about Model Ys getting shipped without the redundant steering angle sensor? Chip constraints meant they couldnt install it to hit their shipping numbers, so they skipped it and didnt tell customers. It is required for FSD and you cant operate without it - legal requirement. Of course, they will have to get all of those customer cars back in and retro-fit it, at their cost.
Its a small thing I know, but its one of many that is hindering their ability to address a wider customer base. And its still unclear if their current models will actually have the on-board computing power to handle any actual release of FSD. Personally, having little awareness of the exact situations, I suspect they cant and wont. That means enforced hardware replacement on compatible models or a upgrade to a later production model. Good luck explaining that to someone who bought a 2019 Tesla..... with more competition and different models / style / options, not all customers are going to upgrade to the same car again. Lets see, but time will tell.
Burwood said:
Even if true can you articulate the valuation thesis. We know they won't produce 10m cars nor monetise FSD for years and when they do others will do so as well.
Of course not, their valuation is completely bonkers.I was just pointing out what the CEOs might mean when talking about Tesla simplicity.
That then hurt some people's feelings as I was apparently ignoring tweets or something.
I agree on Munro, but the electrical system and the legacy of vw/Ford is also a big part of the reason they have so much delivery issues re microchips.
But anyway, back to our feelings about Our Musk.
ZesPak said:
I agree on Munro, but the electrical system and the legacy of vw/Ford is also a big part of the reason they have so much delivery issues re microchips.
Actually, that quite interesting - and we probably wont know for a few more years yet. Just because something is cheaper to build, doesnt necessarily make it more reliable or ultimately the better solution in the long term. The automotive world has taught many an OEM this bittersweet fact in the past and making something that works reliably AND is simple to service and maintain doesnt necessarily mean that simpler is better. Clearly the chip situation with Tesla has been better than other OEM's. But how many corners have been cut with Tesla? How will these things run when a small bit of damage occurs to the CANBUS system? This is where long term reputations are built or broken. The Toyota Tacoma is far from cutting edge, but it has an enviable reputation on the 'it will get you there' scale - well it did at least. Will Tesla manage that? I really dont know, but its going to be interesting to see how this pans out....
And for balance - the BMW i3 group on social media has been flooded with 12v battery issues which absolutely will leave you stranded. Thats not good for what has proven to be a reliable car overall.
ZesPak said:
But anyway, back to our feelings about Our Musk.
Oh yes please.... ZesPak said:
High praise indeed, but if your "upstart that doesn't even know how to build cars" outsells everything else on the market, they are hard to ignore.
As for the complexity, Munro did a round table regarding the architecture of the Y with a couple of competitors.
Most of the consensus was that the decisions for this were "probably what they have on the shelf" or "how they're used to do it", none of them were "it was the most logical/smart thing to do".
Has Munro done a comparison of the lack of Tesla having a Modular Car Platform against competitors and concluded the same? As for the complexity, Munro did a round table regarding the architecture of the Y with a couple of competitors.
Most of the consensus was that the decisions for this were "probably what they have on the shelf" or "how they're used to do it", none of them were "it was the most logical/smart thing to do".
The ID.Buzz people carrier was all over today's motoring press as VW have given them to the press to try out.
I wonder if many people actually connect the persona of Musk with the physical car? I don't.
I don't know who the CEO's of Aston, Kawasaki, Morgan, Bentley, VW, BMW, Toyota etc are. I just see the cars and either like or dislike. I know who the CEO of Tesla is, but don't really connect him to the actual car. What he says is an irrelevance to me as an owner. I also like my Range Rover - no idea who the CEO is.
I don't know who the CEO's of Aston, Kawasaki, Morgan, Bentley, VW, BMW, Toyota etc are. I just see the cars and either like or dislike. I know who the CEO of Tesla is, but don't really connect him to the actual car. What he says is an irrelevance to me as an owner. I also like my Range Rover - no idea who the CEO is.
I think that goes with this entire thread.
I like my Tesla, it's probably the best family car I've ever had.
But their valuation makes no sense to me whatsoever. I also don't really care about it. Most of the time I've had cars from companies that were near bankrupt in one way or another anyway
.
BUT, in light of the valuation, Our Musk is relevant.
I like my Tesla, it's probably the best family car I've ever had.
But their valuation makes no sense to me whatsoever. I also don't really care about it. Most of the time I've had cars from companies that were near bankrupt in one way or another anyway
.BUT, in light of the valuation, Our Musk is relevant.
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