Man maths and Plug in Hybrids
Discussion
Hi,
At the moment I have a 2006 Lexus GS450H, which as hard as it tries, the battery only lasts about a mile and a half in stop start. I get about 33mpg on my commute and 37mpg on motorway cruise. With fuel prices going up, I'm trying to see how I can minimise this cost. I'm currently paying £260-300 a month on petrol. This is an 18 miles commute through slow country roads (180 a week) and a 90 mile motorway cruise at the weekend, which I am happy to cruise at 70. I'm not desperate to change the car as I do like it, although a big bill may strike one day.
I'm trying to work out if it would be worth it to switch to a plug in hybrid, such as:
2016 Kia Optima
2017 Hyundai Ioniq
2016 BMW 330e
2015 Mercedes C350e
I would have to charge at home on a regular 3 pin. There are no chargers at work but it's rumored there will be some installed (will probably not be enough but, yeah), so lets say I'll only be able to charge at home. These cars, can you put them in electric only mode? If I can't charge at work would it not be worth doing that? Let's say I charge at home every night but drive it in the normal mode, what kind of mpg will I actually get?
I'd have to finance the car if I was paying £250 a month for the car would this offset the fuel bill at all?
At the moment I have a 2006 Lexus GS450H, which as hard as it tries, the battery only lasts about a mile and a half in stop start. I get about 33mpg on my commute and 37mpg on motorway cruise. With fuel prices going up, I'm trying to see how I can minimise this cost. I'm currently paying £260-300 a month on petrol. This is an 18 miles commute through slow country roads (180 a week) and a 90 mile motorway cruise at the weekend, which I am happy to cruise at 70. I'm not desperate to change the car as I do like it, although a big bill may strike one day.
I'm trying to work out if it would be worth it to switch to a plug in hybrid, such as:
2016 Kia Optima
2017 Hyundai Ioniq
2016 BMW 330e
2015 Mercedes C350e
I would have to charge at home on a regular 3 pin. There are no chargers at work but it's rumored there will be some installed (will probably not be enough but, yeah), so lets say I'll only be able to charge at home. These cars, can you put them in electric only mode? If I can't charge at work would it not be worth doing that? Let's say I charge at home every night but drive it in the normal mode, what kind of mpg will I actually get?
I'd have to finance the car if I was paying £250 a month for the car would this offset the fuel bill at all?
I used to have a outlander PHEV.
I plugged it in every night.
My daily commute was less than 25 miles so was done solely on electric power.
On a long journey the average mpg was similar to what you are getting mid 30’s mpg.
Whether or not it is worth it for you depends on how many journeys to and from your house are within (or close to) the battery range.
I plugged it in every night.
My daily commute was less than 25 miles so was done solely on electric power.
On a long journey the average mpg was similar to what you are getting mid 30’s mpg.
Whether or not it is worth it for you depends on how many journeys to and from your house are within (or close to) the battery range.
Yes, they drive in electric only mode until you run out of battery, then they switch to trad hybrid style until you charge from the mains again.
Sounds to me what you'd pay to finance it would equate to your current fuel bill, then you'd still need to buy some petrol, so you'd be down overall on the deal, but hey, you'd be in a newer car which may well cost less to maintain, so maybe evens over all. That's the unknown bit really.
Sounds to me like you might even want to consider a full BEV like a 40kwh Nissan Leaf. Depending on what's at the end of your 90 mile weekend journey. Is there a place to charge the car there? If so you could finance one for £250 a month, and then it's only pennies to charge it and your fuel bill evaporates almost entirely. Low maintenance costs (little servicing) and very good reliability are side benfits too. Very comfy cars with great seats and a nice relaxing place to be on a motorway (I know because I've got one, well, a 30kwh version).
End of the day, do you want a newer car - that's the question.
Sounds to me what you'd pay to finance it would equate to your current fuel bill, then you'd still need to buy some petrol, so you'd be down overall on the deal, but hey, you'd be in a newer car which may well cost less to maintain, so maybe evens over all. That's the unknown bit really.
Sounds to me like you might even want to consider a full BEV like a 40kwh Nissan Leaf. Depending on what's at the end of your 90 mile weekend journey. Is there a place to charge the car there? If so you could finance one for £250 a month, and then it's only pennies to charge it and your fuel bill evaporates almost entirely. Low maintenance costs (little servicing) and very good reliability are side benfits too. Very comfy cars with great seats and a nice relaxing place to be on a motorway (I know because I've got one, well, a 30kwh version).
End of the day, do you want a newer car - that's the question.
Numbers game
What's the battery size and range on each?
At best, you might now be paying 8p/kWh overnight, but you're ot going to manage enough on a granny cable. Can you charge at work? Because I doubt any of those will achieve 36 miles.on Electric.
Most will also struggle to only use electric at motorway speeds.
Outlander PHEV and Ampera are two of the PHEVs that can run purely on Electric in all circumstances till battery is flat.
What's the battery size and range on each?
At best, you might now be paying 8p/kWh overnight, but you're ot going to manage enough on a granny cable. Can you charge at work? Because I doubt any of those will achieve 36 miles.on Electric.
Most will also struggle to only use electric at motorway speeds.
Outlander PHEV and Ampera are two of the PHEVs that can run purely on Electric in all circumstances till battery is flat.
You could probably reasonably assume you'll do one leg of your commute on electric, then petrol for the return leg. So your fuel bill in the week will pretty much halve.
Bear in mind 10kWh of electricity could be anything from 50p to £3.50 depending on your tariff.
Also don't assume switching to an EV tariff will be worth it as the other rates and standing charge are usually more than normal. With a PHEV you probably won't use enough to make it worthwhile. A full EV doing a lot of miles would be worth it.
I've just switched to a PHEV, but I have free charging at work (for now) and it's a 20 mile round trip. Therefore I don't need to charge at home during the week.
Also some other things with PHEVs:
Speed on electric is limited (mine is 75mph or so which is fine)
Some rely on the engine for heating so in cold weather you'll either be using the engine or be very cold.
Performance is limited in EV mode. They're usually 100+bhp so fine to keep up with traffic but don't expect the nice acceleration you get in a full EV.
They will randomly run the engine sometimes even if you're in EV mode (burning off vented fuel vapour seems to be a common reason).
PHEVs are great if your usage profile fits, but you need to do research into specific models of interest.
Charging via a 3 pin shouldn't be too much of a problem (assuming the socket is good). Mine only charges at 3.7kW max anyway so a granny charger at 2.4kW would be ~4 hours instead of ~3 (no big deal when it's overnight or during a full working day).
Bear in mind 10kWh of electricity could be anything from 50p to £3.50 depending on your tariff.
Also don't assume switching to an EV tariff will be worth it as the other rates and standing charge are usually more than normal. With a PHEV you probably won't use enough to make it worthwhile. A full EV doing a lot of miles would be worth it.
I've just switched to a PHEV, but I have free charging at work (for now) and it's a 20 mile round trip. Therefore I don't need to charge at home during the week.
Also some other things with PHEVs:
Speed on electric is limited (mine is 75mph or so which is fine)
Some rely on the engine for heating so in cold weather you'll either be using the engine or be very cold.
Performance is limited in EV mode. They're usually 100+bhp so fine to keep up with traffic but don't expect the nice acceleration you get in a full EV.
They will randomly run the engine sometimes even if you're in EV mode (burning off vented fuel vapour seems to be a common reason).
PHEVs are great if your usage profile fits, but you need to do research into specific models of interest.
Charging via a 3 pin shouldn't be too much of a problem (assuming the socket is good). Mine only charges at 3.7kW max anyway so a granny charger at 2.4kW would be ~4 hours instead of ~3 (no big deal when it's overnight or during a full working day).
I would remove the BMW 330e and C350e off your shortlist. I wouldn't run German plug in hybrids of that era unless it was under a good warranty that covered the hybrid system and the battery.
You're scared of big bills with the Lexus? I would suggest it's going to be more reliable over the next few years than any of the PHEVs you are looking at.
I have a 2015 C350e, and the battery lasts 9-12 miles in summer, and 4-6 miles in winter (yes, that's right, don't forget to consider the impact that winter will have on anything with a battery) and the petrol engine is thirsty as hell when it kicks in
Don't forget the cost to change the car (in terms of you have a car you know and trust) vs you're jumping into another used car where you have the risk of switching to a car which isn't known to you and may give you fresh problems (as opposed to putting up with rising fuel costs)
I was looking at the idea of switching to a newer PHEV or even an EV or just downsizing to a really small petrol hybrid but in the current climate where used car prices are insane, and stock is limited, the maths didn't work out, I'm better off sticking with my car for another year or two. I place a lot of value on my time, so if I include the cost of me browsing/searching for/test driving replacement cars, it definitely isn't worth the switch.
I appreciate you may be under financial pressure to do something to reduce fuel costs, but I suggest doing your homework and looking at the maths of any switch very carefully indeed to see if it really does make a big overall difference to you in terms of total cost of ownership, not just fuel costs in the short term.
You're scared of big bills with the Lexus? I would suggest it's going to be more reliable over the next few years than any of the PHEVs you are looking at.
I have a 2015 C350e, and the battery lasts 9-12 miles in summer, and 4-6 miles in winter (yes, that's right, don't forget to consider the impact that winter will have on anything with a battery) and the petrol engine is thirsty as hell when it kicks in
Don't forget the cost to change the car (in terms of you have a car you know and trust) vs you're jumping into another used car where you have the risk of switching to a car which isn't known to you and may give you fresh problems (as opposed to putting up with rising fuel costs)
I was looking at the idea of switching to a newer PHEV or even an EV or just downsizing to a really small petrol hybrid but in the current climate where used car prices are insane, and stock is limited, the maths didn't work out, I'm better off sticking with my car for another year or two. I place a lot of value on my time, so if I include the cost of me browsing/searching for/test driving replacement cars, it definitely isn't worth the switch.
I appreciate you may be under financial pressure to do something to reduce fuel costs, but I suggest doing your homework and looking at the maths of any switch very carefully indeed to see if it really does make a big overall difference to you in terms of total cost of ownership, not just fuel costs in the short term.
raspy said:
I would remove the BMW 330e and C350e off your shortlist. I wouldn't run German plug in hybrids of that era unless it was under a good warranty that covered the hybrid system and the battery.
I have a 2015 C350e, and the battery lasts 9-12 miles in summer, and 4-6 miles in winter (yes, that's right, don't forget to consider the impact that winter will have on anything with a battery) and the petrol engine is thirsty as hell when it kicks in
+1 on both these pointsI have a 2015 C350e, and the battery lasts 9-12 miles in summer, and 4-6 miles in winter (yes, that's right, don't forget to consider the impact that winter will have on anything with a battery) and the petrol engine is thirsty as hell when it kicks in
I ran a 2018 330e for three months ( before ditching for BEV), and couldn’t get an 11 mile commute out of it on battery in winter, which meant the ICE was being fired up, but never got to temperature, so not only was I cold on the battery to preserve range, but I was cold when the ICE fired up as it never got warm enough to heat the cabin. Not good for an ICE - it was like driving it on 2 mile journeys all the time.
The later 330e model gets bigger battery, but economy on ICE suffers.
Overall, it was the only car buying decision I regret. It got worse economy than the Audi S5 it replaced on longer motorway trips, wasn’t as nice inside, I was cold for a lot of those 3 months and the operation of the hybrid system frustrated me with its choices of when to cut in/out.
May work for you, but be prepared.
For most of 2021 I commuted in a 2018 Passat GTE Advance estate, 16 miles each way. I could, if REALLY trying manage about 85% of the round trip on electric only. Fortunately we had chargers at work (free), so most of the time I managed a full round trip on electric, which cost pennies (essentially only ever charging <50% at home).
For the tail end of 2021 I was doing the same commute in a 2021 X1 xDrive25e, which managed the round trip purely on electric without charging at work (I’d get home with 1-2% left). Again though I charged at work essentially halving the cost.
With even the poorest range of BEV vehicles I’d have been fine on that commute in the dead of winter, even if I could only charge at home. In hindsight I should have done exactly that and only charged at work!
For the tail end of 2021 I was doing the same commute in a 2021 X1 xDrive25e, which managed the round trip purely on electric without charging at work (I’d get home with 1-2% left). Again though I charged at work essentially halving the cost.
With even the poorest range of BEV vehicles I’d have been fine on that commute in the dead of winter, even if I could only charge at home. In hindsight I should have done exactly that and only charged at work!
paradigital said:
In hindsight I should have done exactly that and only charged at work!
Yep, I've been running a BEV for years now, and I'm one of the very few people who is actually worse off not needing to commute any more. I used to charge my car to full every working day at the office for nowt, and I'd usually have enough to see me through the weekends too. Now I don't commute and just WFH, so I have to charge my car on my own electricity, so I'm spending more money than I did when commuting!P675 said:
Hmm ok thanks for all the advice. I should probably wait for prices to come down for it to be worth it. !
As the purchase prices of elderly PHEVs come down, their maintenance costs are likely to suck up that difference.With your usage I would say full elecy seems best if can sort out a home charger
P675 said:
Hmm ok thanks for all the advice. I should probably wait for prices to come down for it to be worth it. Very surprised at the actual electric range of some of the cars. I was looking into ~2011 Leafs (Leaves?) but read that the battery range can drop to 30 miles!
Well, yes, it can. Those are 11 year old early adopter models, obsolete tech now. I wouldn't advise anyone to buy a 2011 Leaf unless they really were only ever going to tootle aroud within about 20 miles of their house.The car I think you might be well advised to look at is the later 40kwh Leaf, from 2018 onwards. If you can make the maths work.
Bannock said:
P675 said:
Hmm ok thanks for all the advice. I should probably wait for prices to come down for it to be worth it. Very surprised at the actual electric range of some of the cars. I was looking into ~2011 Leafs (Leaves?) but read that the battery range can drop to 30 miles!
Well, yes, it can. Those are 11 year old early adopter models, obsolete tech now. I wouldn't advise anyone to buy a 2011 Leaf unless they really were only ever going to tootle aroud within about 20 miles of their house.The car I think you might be well advised to look at is the later 40kwh Leaf, from 2018 onwards. If you can make the maths work.
Battery management a bit better than the Leaf, so a bit less of a risk from that POV.
JonChalk said:
Bannock said:
P675 said:
Hmm ok thanks for all the advice. I should probably wait for prices to come down for it to be worth it. Very surprised at the actual electric range of some of the cars. I was looking into ~2011 Leafs (Leaves?) but read that the battery range can drop to 30 miles!
Well, yes, it can. Those are 11 year old early adopter models, obsolete tech now. I wouldn't advise anyone to buy a 2011 Leaf unless they really were only ever going to tootle aroud within about 20 miles of their house.The car I think you might be well advised to look at is the later 40kwh Leaf, from 2018 onwards. If you can make the maths work.
Battery management a bit better than the Leaf, so a bit less of a risk from that POV.
JonChalk said:
..or possibly the all-electric Ioniq, which came in 2017/18 from memory - if you were considering a similar age hybrid Ioniq, could you stretch to the BEV ones?
Battery management a bit better than the Leaf, so a bit less of a risk from that POV.
Good car. On a particularly long journey with multiple charges there's not much between the 28kWh and the 38kWh because the rapid charging rate is actually better on the smaller battery.Battery management a bit better than the Leaf, so a bit less of a risk from that POV.
Good cars, well out together, reasonably well equipped, and the BEV is very efficient with the limited battery size. Would be a giant killer if it ever shared the 62kWh of the Kona.
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