An interesting time to be a car fan?
Discussion
Putting aside all the chatter about range and being cohearsed into accepting EV's etc ..
Is this not quite an exciting time to be a car fan? After decades of steady progression it feels like something of a quantum leap has occurred in the last decade. Electrification of the powertrain is simplifying and improving so much about daily driving cars, and adding a few smiles at the same time.
We've gone from the comedy that was the G-whizz to cars that whisp along silently with several hundred horsepower. The ability to refuel at home and always start with a full 'tank' is a big deal in terms of lifestyle too.
Anyone else enjoying the rapid pace of change right now?
Is this not quite an exciting time to be a car fan? After decades of steady progression it feels like something of a quantum leap has occurred in the last decade. Electrification of the powertrain is simplifying and improving so much about daily driving cars, and adding a few smiles at the same time.
We've gone from the comedy that was the G-whizz to cars that whisp along silently with several hundred horsepower. The ability to refuel at home and always start with a full 'tank' is a big deal in terms of lifestyle too.
Anyone else enjoying the rapid pace of change right now?
I was an EV sceptic until I drove one. Having lived with it now for 8 months I’d never go back to ICE for a daily driver. It’s a far superior experience on every level as a daily.
It even adds some of the thrills I get from weekend toys too, but there’s no disguising that weight. So, for now, ICE is still my choice for a toy. But I’m excited to see what Porsche do with the Cayman GT4 ePerformance platform, and how that tech will find its way into production cars within the next few years.
It even adds some of the thrills I get from weekend toys too, but there’s no disguising that weight. So, for now, ICE is still my choice for a toy. But I’m excited to see what Porsche do with the Cayman GT4 ePerformance platform, and how that tech will find its way into production cars within the next few years.
I definitely think that the range of EV's at present is down to what types of car are easiest to design and package, and sell. That's why crossover and full size EV's are so prevalent.
But once those markets are well serviced and the bans are looming, we should see more 'fun' cars.
They will be stuck with very limited range in order to keep the weight down, at least until solid state cells are mainstream. But what's wrong with a fun car being impractical? If Mazda released an EV MX5 with just 100 miles range I think it'd sell. I'm sure they will release something along those lines too - it's either that or kill off one of their best selling cars.
But once those markets are well serviced and the bans are looming, we should see more 'fun' cars.
They will be stuck with very limited range in order to keep the weight down, at least until solid state cells are mainstream. But what's wrong with a fun car being impractical? If Mazda released an EV MX5 with just 100 miles range I think it'd sell. I'm sure they will release something along those lines too - it's either that or kill off one of their best selling cars.
100% agree. Fascinating time of evolution to experience. The rate of change is going to be increasingly rapid as the manufacturer's are able to release themselves from the albatross of legacy ICE models they still have in their ranges now and can really focus 100% on EV development.
In my opinion, key opportunity areas that were naturally restricted with ICE will be packaging efficiency, aerodynamics & torque vectoring.
The biggest release and benefit over ICE has to be removing reliance on the multi-ratio gearbox. This, in conjunction with the flat torque curve of EV motors has made cars so much more responsive and smooth that they are just much better machines for everyday use.
Yes it is sad that the more interesting ICE cars are in their closing chapter, but I think this new chapter is going to be very interesting to watch and experience unfold.
In my opinion, key opportunity areas that were naturally restricted with ICE will be packaging efficiency, aerodynamics & torque vectoring.
The biggest release and benefit over ICE has to be removing reliance on the multi-ratio gearbox. This, in conjunction with the flat torque curve of EV motors has made cars so much more responsive and smooth that they are just much better machines for everyday use.
Yes it is sad that the more interesting ICE cars are in their closing chapter, but I think this new chapter is going to be very interesting to watch and experience unfold.
OutInTheShed said:
I think motoring on the public roads is only going to get worse.
More crowded.
More controlled.
More monitored.
Slower.
Absolutely, medium-term, motoring freedom and driving for fun's days are very much numbered. More crowded.
More controlled.
More monitored.
Slower.
Before then, there will be a brief-ish (probably about 10 years) of absolute carnage on the roads where EVs become more and more common. People will have a lot more crashes having become used to comfortably out-accelerating ICE cars to nip out into spaces in traffic only to then find that the other car is also an EV and is doing the same thing to close a gap... It'll introduce an element of excitement into driving again that people are bemoaning will be lost, just perhaps not what people were thinking of
plfrench said:
100% agree. Fascinating time of evolution to experience. The rate of change is going to be increasingly rapid as the manufacturer's are able to release themselves from the albatross of legacy ICE models they still have in their ranges now and can really focus 100% on EV development.
In my opinion, key opportunity areas that were naturally restricted with ICE will be packaging efficiency, aerodynamics & torque vectoring.
The biggest release and benefit over ICE has to be removing reliance on the multi-ratio gearbox. This, in conjunction with the flat torque curve of EV motors has made cars so much more responsive and smooth that they are just much better machines for everyday use.
Yes it is sad that the more interesting ICE cars are in their closing chapter, but I think this new chapter is going to be very interesting to watch and experience unfold.
On the torque vectoring point... Oh yes. Regen has forced manufacturers to develop very high tech fly by wire braking systems and the result of those as 'e-diffs' along with an EV's ability to precisely moderate torque from the motors is astonishing. My two plus tonne SUV is like a limpet, it defies everything I had come to expect from a car - and it isn't even intrusive, it's so subtle.In my opinion, key opportunity areas that were naturally restricted with ICE will be packaging efficiency, aerodynamics & torque vectoring.
The biggest release and benefit over ICE has to be removing reliance on the multi-ratio gearbox. This, in conjunction with the flat torque curve of EV motors has made cars so much more responsive and smooth that they are just much better machines for everyday use.
Yes it is sad that the more interesting ICE cars are in their closing chapter, but I think this new chapter is going to be very interesting to watch and experience unfold.
And on the packaging front, sure, batteries are heavy but it all lives on or beneath the axle centres. There is an argument that it's better to have more weight there than less weight in the form of ICE hovering above the front axle. I wouldn't want to track my car because it's weight would eventually be it's undoing - but on public roads you simply can't push so hard for it to be an issue.
EV has so far proven many of my original assumptions wrong. I was looking at EV with an ICE mindset and all I could see was the weight and range figures. It's very much a bridge you have to cross before it starts to make sense and you realise how much potential the simplified and entirely sub floor powertrain layout has to offer.
There certainly was rapid change and I think Tesla did some remarkable things but at the moment it feels like we’re moving at a snail’s pace as EVs have become more mainstream. To me it seems like everyone is just trying to churn stuff out while there are incentives to tap into without really focusing on the experience a whole lot. Some of the best to drive EVs came out years ago.
I do like the fact that EVs exist and their zero emissions footprint. It is obviously impossible to argue against those benefits from an intellectual point of view vs driving around poisoning the surroundings. Maybe the rest isn’t so important at the end of the day.
I do like the fact that EVs exist and their zero emissions footprint. It is obviously impossible to argue against those benefits from an intellectual point of view vs driving around poisoning the surroundings. Maybe the rest isn’t so important at the end of the day.
DMZ said:
There certainly was rapid change and I think Tesla did some remarkable things but at the moment it feels like we’re moving at a snail’s pace as EVs have become more mainstream. To me it seems like everyone is just trying to churn stuff out while there are incentives to tap into without really focusing on the experience a whole lot. Some of the best to drive EVs came out years ago.
I do like the fact that EVs exist and their zero emissions footprint. It is obviously impossible to argue against those benefits from an intellectual point of view vs driving around poisoning the surroundings. Maybe the rest isn’t so important at the end of the day.
I think the environmental benefits are great, but truth be told I'm more about the car itself. It's great if it's a little greener but mostly I just enjoy the superior drivetrain and convenience of EV as a daily.I do like the fact that EVs exist and their zero emissions footprint. It is obviously impossible to argue against those benefits from an intellectual point of view vs driving around poisoning the surroundings. Maybe the rest isn’t so important at the end of the day.
I agree its a bit dull right now watching each manufacturer in turn dish out essentially the same crossover or towncar as each other.. but they'll all look to more niche cars as the end of ICE draws closer. They have to.
I'd say in recent times BMW and Porsche are putting out the most interesting and fun new EV's.
Yes, I'm very much enjoying the reset provided by the switch to EV, seeing what solutions engineers come up with, and watching how EVs evolve to provide a credible rival to ICE from what was effectively a standing start just 10 years or so ago. Modern ICE had become pretty boring anyway, and the extreme ease of unlimited mobility that modern cars provided was being taken too much for granted in my view.
Having run a used Zoe a few years ago, I loved the sense of driving something different from the norm and being a bit of a pioneer. Now in a VW e-up, that sense has faded a bit (partly because the e-up looks like any petrol up, so is more under the radar, but also because EVs are more mainstream now). Still enjoying the driving experience though, and just being involved in this massive technological (and to some extent cultural) shift.
I feel sadness at the imminent passing of ICE, and a degree of guilt that the decades-long passion that I have had for cars has turned out to be rather bad for the planet, but at the same time cautiously hopeful that the world's engineers and designers will come up with new things to stir my soul.
I am disappointed at the lack of affordable EVs so far, however. This is causing a lot of frustration and resentment as people feel that they are being pressured out of their ICE cars but cannot afford the EV alternatives. We need more cars like the e-up and even cheaper stuff like the Dacia Spring ASAP. They will come, no doubt, but I wish they would get here sooner.
Having run a used Zoe a few years ago, I loved the sense of driving something different from the norm and being a bit of a pioneer. Now in a VW e-up, that sense has faded a bit (partly because the e-up looks like any petrol up, so is more under the radar, but also because EVs are more mainstream now). Still enjoying the driving experience though, and just being involved in this massive technological (and to some extent cultural) shift.
I feel sadness at the imminent passing of ICE, and a degree of guilt that the decades-long passion that I have had for cars has turned out to be rather bad for the planet, but at the same time cautiously hopeful that the world's engineers and designers will come up with new things to stir my soul.
I am disappointed at the lack of affordable EVs so far, however. This is causing a lot of frustration and resentment as people feel that they are being pressured out of their ICE cars but cannot afford the EV alternatives. We need more cars like the e-up and even cheaper stuff like the Dacia Spring ASAP. They will come, no doubt, but I wish they would get here sooner.
The most fun I had in an EV (so far) was in a a Renault Twizy and a Carver, basically scooters with added wheels and roof.
I do however hold hopes that the simplicity of an EV drivetrain will explore more possibilities.
Tesla's doing 3 second sprints is just the tip of the iceberg imho.
I'd advise anyone if you have the chance to go greenlaning on a Zero DS and evaluate for themselves. It's a serene experience, and you feel much more connected to everything around you.
I have high hopes for smaller companies creating small and interesting vehicles, as well as bigger companies exploring the possibilities of the electric drivetrain.
True 4WD off roaders and 2WD off road bikes will demolish everything as well.
So yes, while the car has accelerated the economy, it has overstayed it's welcome and has shown itself to be a nuisance and a city planning moneypit, I still think the title is correct.
Over the past decade we've been all but forced into small capacity four cylinders (mainly diesels even in some countries like DE and BE), the switch to an EV has been a welcome breath of fresh air (pun fully intended).
I for one hope that Roman actually manages to deliver on the Nobe for example.
I do however hold hopes that the simplicity of an EV drivetrain will explore more possibilities.
Tesla's doing 3 second sprints is just the tip of the iceberg imho.
I'd advise anyone if you have the chance to go greenlaning on a Zero DS and evaluate for themselves. It's a serene experience, and you feel much more connected to everything around you.
I have high hopes for smaller companies creating small and interesting vehicles, as well as bigger companies exploring the possibilities of the electric drivetrain.
True 4WD off roaders and 2WD off road bikes will demolish everything as well.
So yes, while the car has accelerated the economy, it has overstayed it's welcome and has shown itself to be a nuisance and a city planning moneypit, I still think the title is correct.
Over the past decade we've been all but forced into small capacity four cylinders (mainly diesels even in some countries like DE and BE), the switch to an EV has been a welcome breath of fresh air (pun fully intended).
I for one hope that Roman actually manages to deliver on the Nobe for example.
Edited by ZesPak on Thursday 16th June 08:56
Certainly is an interesting time, I'm enjoying some of the innovations we're seeing. Its easy to get bogged down with the ubiquitous EV crossover that everyone makes now, but there is still some very cool stuff around.
Mercs Level 3 Autonomy - Hugely interesting development
Citroen Ami - Who thought Citroen could actually make anything fun anymore?
Morgan 3 Wheeler - Whimsy is still very much present in Malvern
I think now is a time to really embrace cars and enjoy them, if we don't who will?
Mercs Level 3 Autonomy - Hugely interesting development
Citroen Ami - Who thought Citroen could actually make anything fun anymore?
Morgan 3 Wheeler - Whimsy is still very much present in Malvern
I think now is a time to really embrace cars and enjoy them, if we don't who will?
aestetix1 said:
It's an exciting time, what puts a damper on it is the fact that car prices are ridiculous at the moment. Lots of nice cars, but all unaffordable.
It's all driven by what the market will bear.Enough people are willing to pay hundreds a month to rent their cars.
Manufacturers are happy to take their money.
There are EVs sold in China for very affordable prices.
The world was quite different 10 years ago, and it will be different again in 10 years' time.
ZesPak said:
The most fun I had in an EV (so far) was in a a Renault Twizy and a Carver, basically scooters with added wheels and roof.
I do however hold hopes that the simplicity of an EV drivetrain will explore more possibilities.
Tesla's doing 3 second sprints is just the tip of the iceberg imho.
I’ve long been of the view that where electric propulsion makes the most sense is in the miniaturisation and new modes of transport like electric scooters. Also worth noting that the Twizy etc came out years ago before the crossover borefest that is unfolding now, back when it seems manufacturers were trying new concepts. I’m sure the crossovers are making them a lot more money, though, and that tends to be a factor…I do however hold hopes that the simplicity of an EV drivetrain will explore more possibilities.
Tesla's doing 3 second sprints is just the tip of the iceberg imho.
I am incidentally toying with getting something like a BMW CE 04. Not that such a vehicle is all that new or revolutionary but it looks cool at least and I do like the idea of it.
Lil_Red_GTV said:
The BMW CE 04 is super cool looking. It looks like it time travelled here from the year 2029. It's not going to convert many who aren't already on two wheels, though. Most people want a roof, a boot etc. We need something in between the Ami and the Dacia Spring, for £10-15k.
I think it's more like a throwback to 2001, when BMW made/branded the C1 scooter, which had a 'roof.... etc'.TheDeuce said:
Putting aside all the chatter about range and being cohearsed into accepting EV's etc ..
Is this not quite an exciting time to be a car fan? After decades of steady progression it feels like something of a quantum leap has occurred in the last decade. Electrification of the powertrain is simplifying and improving so much about daily driving cars, and adding a few smiles at the same time.
We've gone from the comedy that was the G-whizz to cars that whisp along silently with several hundred horsepower. The ability to refuel at home and always start with a full 'tank' is a big deal in terms of lifestyle too.
Anyone else enjoying the rapid pace of change right now?
Couldn't agree more. Was never too involved with cars until I started seeing some of the better EVs come out. While the sound of a proper ICE car is something that will be missed, the technology and advantages of EVs are just fascinating. Is this not quite an exciting time to be a car fan? After decades of steady progression it feels like something of a quantum leap has occurred in the last decade. Electrification of the powertrain is simplifying and improving so much about daily driving cars, and adding a few smiles at the same time.
We've gone from the comedy that was the G-whizz to cars that whisp along silently with several hundred horsepower. The ability to refuel at home and always start with a full 'tank' is a big deal in terms of lifestyle too.
Anyone else enjoying the rapid pace of change right now?
What do you guys think of the EVs coming out of China? They are just so far ahead with the technology and are able to offer it a much more reasonable price point. Would not surprise me if the traditional OEMs will shift more and more to premium cars where the brand name holds some weight, but can see the volume segment dominated by Chinese EVs in the not so near future
When I was young, things like R/C cars were powered by NiCd batteries, and they defo didn't last long.
As such when I first drove an EV, it was almost a sense of wonder that batteries could power a car as well as they did. Home charging has also meant so much less agro, no thoughts about when I'll fill up, or special detours if I'd timed it wrong.
I've already seen and felt how EV traction control works, and think it's amazing. And that's before we get onto how lifestyle changing self driving may be in the future.
I also think it's interesting that powerful EVs seem to be able to be made much more affordably. So yes, I think the future is interesting too, though I fear as the car manufacturers do their best to maximise their profits, there will be the usual model stratification, with the associated ever increasing price tags.
And I guess on one hand I think the future is full of incredible possibilities with EVs, but also I think for most of us it'll be amazing because it'll all come with carefully control price tags, to ensure the really interesting/fast stuff is well out of our reach.
As such when I first drove an EV, it was almost a sense of wonder that batteries could power a car as well as they did. Home charging has also meant so much less agro, no thoughts about when I'll fill up, or special detours if I'd timed it wrong.
I've already seen and felt how EV traction control works, and think it's amazing. And that's before we get onto how lifestyle changing self driving may be in the future.
I also think it's interesting that powerful EVs seem to be able to be made much more affordably. So yes, I think the future is interesting too, though I fear as the car manufacturers do their best to maximise their profits, there will be the usual model stratification, with the associated ever increasing price tags.
And I guess on one hand I think the future is full of incredible possibilities with EVs, but also I think for most of us it'll be amazing because it'll all come with carefully control price tags, to ensure the really interesting/fast stuff is well out of our reach.
Two sides to this for me. For daily use cars it's an interesting time as EV is far better suited to the task than ICE and I can't imagine ever being without one now so intrigued at what's on the horizon. For driver enjoyment I find myself more and more wanting an ICE car back on the drive again as EV doesn't offer what I'm looking for.
I've basically concluded that given a budget of £65-100k I'd rather buy an i3S at around £30k for daily duties and spend the rest on something ICE and interesting than spend the lot on an i4 M50 or Porsche Taycan.
I've basically concluded that given a budget of £65-100k I'd rather buy an i3S at around £30k for daily duties and spend the rest on something ICE and interesting than spend the lot on an i4 M50 or Porsche Taycan.
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