Are Electric Cars the biggest con on the planet?

[SpeckledJim]

SteveKTMer said:

DonkeyApple said:

SteveKTMer said:

Also many of the people who would benefit from a small EV, people who live in cities in apartments, flats, terraced houses or any home that doesn't have a driveway (most of London for example) will have to use public chargers, which are always going to be expensive as provided by third parties and almost certainly not close to their homes. That's a significant deterrent to many people buying a BEV, including the more wealthy who can afford the car and charging but don't want to have to park a mile away and walk home while their car charges, then go back a couple of hours later to move it to another parking space not on a charger to avoid the fine for needlessly occupying a charger space.

Destination charging is the real key. I personally don't buy into the idea that there will be loads of street chargers. It won't happen because there simply isn't enough revenue from selling a small amount of electricity to one customer a day.

People who can't charge where they park at home will charge where they park away from home. The price of that electricity will need to be billed to a domestic account for equity not the current system of the meter owner also being an energy vendor.

So every car park, every hotel, every factory, every office, every Hospital, every council office - most of which don't have sufficient parking now, will have to convert 50% (?) of parking space into an EV charging space ? Good luck with that ! This is why BEV sales will plateau long before the 100% mark - if a significant proportion of the car using population cannot charge at home or at work and there aren't sufficient chargers at the supermarket or hospital, they won't buy a BEV and will just pay a higher tax (which is incoming soon !) for keeping an ICE car.

So what happens in 2040 ? It's only 17 years away, 5 years of no ICE sales, if manufacturers don't give up on ICE before then as some appear to be doing now with no new development. The government shows no signs of understanding the numbers of chargers required so it's going to be crazy busy atBEV chargers whilst fuel companies are charging £4/litre for petrol and raking it in with limited incentive to convert much space to EV chargers.

Who knows, maybe it'll all change and a single charge will last 90% of people 90% of their week ? But I think that's a bit far fetched right now with current battery and charging tech.

The average car does under 20 miles a day. Over half of them have off-road domestic charging, so forget about them. We nearly ALL have to go to the petrol station now, but with an EV almost all of us will have no or nearly no need for roadside en route charging. Making life easier for the very few people who do need it.

The rest will be needing, on average, 20 x 7 / 4 = 35kW/h a week. That's 5 hours on a domestic charger. 1.5 hours on a proper-ish charger. Or a 10 minutes on a really fast charger. That's per week, not per day.

Current battery and charging tech isn't the problem. It works for the people it works for, and it also works for the people it's very shortly going to work for.

The task is being ready for truly mass adoption in ten years time. The good news is that we've got ten years to make sure we're ready in ten years.

[SpeckledJim]

whirlybird said:

The guy that got you and your chums to get this thread close to 6000 posts, that's who I am.

It's absolutely hilarious that you continue to see your OP on this thread as a point of pride, when you made such an absolute hash of it.

[bigothunter]

whirlybird said:

Well guys, guess who's back. Hurrah I hear you all cry !!!!! Where has he been for the past week.????

You'll never guess what happened on the way to the Forum ???

I got banned for 7 days.



You would think I got banned for spending time out in Romania,Driving a Gold Plated Bugatti & getting girls to get their kit off on a webcam, all while having a dodgy hair transplant in Turkey.

But No, none of the above I got banned,................ wait for it,

FOR POSTING A SPOOF CAR SALES ADVERT BY 'HARRY ENFIELD & CHUMS '( Currently available on YT )

Seven day suspension is common. I got one for quoting a line from Groucho Marx.

But upset an overlord in NP&E and you can get banned for life. Overlords rule 'their' threads and are good mates with powerful moderators.

You have been warned...

[whirlybird]

SpeckledJim said:

It's absolutely hilarious that you continue to see your OP on this thread as a point of pride, when you made such an absolute hash of it.

Please expand on your 'statement', I'm still not convinced that a 2.5 ton EV SUV, will make any difference whatsoever to GW !!!!
But if we all stopped buying tons of Chinese Crap filling all the Amazon Warehouses dotted over the planet, that would go a long way to helping ?

[SpeckledJim]

whirlybird said:

SpeckledJim said:

whirlybird said:

The guy that got you and your chums to get this thread close to 6000 posts, that's who I am.

It's absolutely hilarious that you continue to see your OP on this thread as a point of pride, when you made such an absolute hash of it.

Please expand on your 'statement', I'm still not convinced that a 2.5 ton EV SUV, will make any difference whatsoever to GW !!!!
But if we all stopped buying tons of Chinese Crap filling all the Amazon Warehouses dotted over the planet, that would go a long way to helping ?

Here it is, in all its glory. You should start more threads. PH can shift a load of adverts with this sort of kindling.

whirlybird said:

I have deleted my initial message from this topic.
The "word police" deleted my initial op, its now (amended) on page 7

[footnote]Edited by whirlybird on Monday 8th August 13:06[/footnote

There seems to be a push to convert existing classics into EV, & Planet Friendly transport !!!
A company in London and I am sure in many other places can convert said classic for around £30,000 (FFS)
Now how about crunching these numbers !!! take a Mini, a rebuilt A- Series, I guess costs about £3000 + - ?
leaving £27,000 for lovely PETROL, and even at today's rip-off fuel prices would give you approximately 120,000 miles, with no fear of
Range Anxiety,
If anybody actually think they're saving the planet by buying a huge EV BMW X3 then I sorry, but simply cannot agree ( This is the clean version ) Discuss.

Edited by whirlybird on Monday 8th August 19:40

[SWoll]

whirlybird said:

But if we all stopped buying tons of Chinese Crap filling all the Amazon Warehouses dotted over the planet, that would go a long way to helping ?

The ship has literally already sailed on that one I'm afraid. Western economies are in free fall which will leave people buying more and more cheap Chinese made goods as allows their money to go further. You can't honestly think they'll stop doing so as one of the few highlights of their day is the latest Hermes delivery of imported tat.

Not suggesting that everyone shifting to EV's is an answer either BTW, as lets be honest here given a few years the vast majority of EV's on the road are likely to be Chinese manufactured anyway.

[whirlybird]

SWoll said:

Not suggesting that everyone shifting to EV's is an answer either BTW, as lets be honest here given a few years the vast majority of EV's on the road are likely to be Chinese manufactured anyway.

But that is the point, China will be building most of the planets EV,s but using coal fired power stations, & the coal coming from Australia.
It's that all the pollution generated in China/India etc will still exceed the green credentials of 'Western Nations'. As I understand ( & know doubt "Somebody" will correct me !!!) Is it Germany looking to delay the stopping of ICE production ???

Edited by whirlybird on Friday 17th March 12:14

[DonkeyApple]

SteveKTMer said:

So every car park, every hotel, every factory, every office, every Hospital, every council office - most of which don't have sufficient parking now, will have to convert 50% (?) of parking space into an EV charging space ? Good luck with that ! This is why BEV sales will plateau long before the 100% mark - if a significant proportion of the car using population cannot charge at home or at work and there aren't sufficient chargers at the supermarket or hospital, they won't buy a BEV and will just pay a higher tax (which is incoming soon !) for keeping an ICE car.

So what happens in 2040 ? It's only 17 years away, 5 years of no ICE sales, if manufacturers don't give up on ICE before then as some appear to be doing now with no new development. The government shows no signs of understanding the numbers of chargers required so it's going to be crazy busy atBEV chargers whilst fuel companies are charging £4/litre for petrol and raking it in with limited incentive to convert much space to EV chargers.

Who knows, maybe it'll all change and a single charge will last 90% of people 90% of their week ? But I think that's a bit far fetched right now with current battery and charging tech.

It's a smaller percentage that don't have offstreet parking in the U.K. That's important to consider.

60-70% of homeowners do have offstreet parking. And one has to appreciate that of the remaining 30-40% a very large percentage of this section of society don't actually own a car.

Destination charging is the only economically viable solution. It's where cars are parked for long enough periods but also there is viable customer turnover.

Residential street charging is mainly a non starter as a solution because the meters would lose money, the residents would lose parking spaces and they'd also be having to pay fees to park outside their home.

The typical residential street meter will require a marked bay so instantly you can see the application of these meters will significantly lower the number of cars that can be parked. Residents will not tollerate marked bays and such reductions in capacity.

Then you have the fact that the typical purchase of electricity will be tiny, just a few kw to replace what was used that day but the car will be parked at that meter from 6pm to 8am blocking all other customers. Each meter will be hideously loss making if users pay per kw so they would actually just have to pay a fixed parking fee. No one is going to opt to suddenly start paying a daily fee to park on their home street.

The big expansion is therefore destination charging. Whether it's station parking, office parking, shop parking etc. Where there is parking related to commercial activity there will be chargers.

On top of that, you also have the fact that driveway owners can rent parking and charging. Millions upon millions of domestic chargers can become commercial charge points. This has been being done for years in London and will simply expand out as the potential grows.

All of this can be assisted by some simple law changes such as dictating to employers that if they want their workers to use EVs they must ensure charging facilities for those without home facilities. That's a very simple anti discrimination case. Likewise the banning of chargers owners from being electricity vendors, a simple legal change that prevents acting as principal and only permitting acting as agent so that any electricity that flows through the charger is merely billed a facilitation commission and the end user is buying the electricity direct from their domestic utility provider and billed as such. Charger owners must be only allowed to operate as brokers of the sale of electricity and never the vendor. And broking commissions must come under appropriate regulation and governance to ensure competition and transparency. Frankly, non residential chargers should be placed under the FCA and treated as a form of brokerage activity.

But the key advantage the U.K. has is that it is a small island where electricity is wholly ubiquitous and where there is the ability to be self sufficient in production. This gives us such an enormous advantage over our peer economies and arguably why we should keep pushing the change not just on ourselves but on our economic competitors as what hobbles them empowers our economy.

Go electric for private transport in the U.K. under a mechanism where our main competitors are forced to do the same is brilliant because for us it's actually easy whereas for some peers it's close to impossible without vast cost and economic stalling.

The whole move to 2050 favours the U.K. over almost any peer nation and our closest trading partners. We have very little 20th century heavy industry, we don't generally have car usage needs that exceed the capability of current battery tech, we are the 6th/7th wealthiest economy on the planet, we've already ended the coal economy and our geographic location makes renewable energy self sufficiency easily achievable.

In reality, the U.K. has the easiest path to EV and the easiest path to net zero. So easy we don't even have to be fannying about with Wunderwaffe such as trying to pitch tramp booze as some kind of trendy, super saviour 'efuel'.

[AstonZagato]

bigothunter said:

whirlybird said:

Well guys, guess who's back. Hurrah I hear you all cry !!!!! Where has he been for the past week.????

You'll never guess what happened on the way to the Forum ???

I got banned for 7 days.



You would think I got banned for spending time out in Romania,Driving a Gold Plated Bugatti & getting girls to get their kit off on a webcam, all while having a dodgy hair transplant in Turkey.

But No, none of the above I got banned,................ wait for it,

FOR POSTING A SPOOF CAR SALES ADVERT BY 'HARRY ENFIELD & CHUMS '( Currently available on YT )

Seven day suspension is common. I got one for quoting a line from Groucho Marx.

But upset an overlord in NP&E and you can get banned for life. Overlords rule 'their' threads and are good mates with powerful moderators.

You have been warned...

Making light of the Mods decisions isn't the brightest decision. Take your lumps and live with it.

[Pixelpeep Electric]

whirlybird said:

The guy that got you and your chums to get this thread close to 6000 posts, that's who I am.

Edited by whirlybird on Friday 17th March 10:41

Wow.. that is the very definition of achievement. Bravo.

[NMNeil]

bigothunter said:

whirlybird said:

Well guys, guess who's back. Hurrah I hear you all cry !!!!! Where has he been for the past week.????

You'll never guess what happened on the way to the Forum ???

I got banned for 7 days.



You would think I got banned for spending time out in Romania,Driving a Gold Plated Bugatti & getting girls to get their kit off on a webcam, all while having a dodgy hair transplant in Turkey.

But No, none of the above I got banned,................ wait for it,

FOR POSTING A SPOOF CAR SALES ADVERT BY 'HARRY ENFIELD & CHUMS '( Currently available on YT )

Seven day suspension is common. I got one for quoting a line from Groucho Marx.

But upset an overlord in NP&E and you can get banned for life. Overlords rule 'their' threads and are good mates with powerful moderators.

You have been warned...

I'm still banned from the News, Politics and Economics forum because I suggested that the UK fix it's own problems before offering suggestions on how the US can fix theirs.
But it's the administrators ball, and if they want to take it home so nobody else can play, that's their prerogative.

[whirlybird]

NMNeil said:

I'm still banned from the News, Politics and Economics forum because I suggested that the UK fix it's own problems before offering suggestions on how the US can fix theirs.
But it's the administrators ball, and if they want to take it home so nobody else can play, that's their prerogative.

All I can really say is that somebody needs a 'humour transplant", we are in the UK here, not China or North Korea !!!!

[TheDeuce]

whirlybird said:

NMNeil said:

I'm still banned from the News, Politics and Economics forum because I suggested that the UK fix it's own problems before offering suggestions on how the US can fix theirs.
But it's the administrators ball, and if they want to take it home so nobody else can play, that's their prerogative.

All I can really say is that somebody needs a 'humour transplant", we are in the UK here, not China or North Korea !!!!

So having received a 7 day ban for breaking rule #11, you're straight back and now breaking rule #23

I'm sure the moderators already watching you will be impressed that you've compared them to a violent dictatorship. Let me know in 7 days

[whirlybird]

[SteveKTMer]

DonkeyApple said:

SteveKTMer said:

So every car park, every hotel, every factory, every office, every Hospital, every council office - most of which don't have sufficient parking now, will have to convert 50% (?) of parking space into an EV charging space ? Good luck with that ! This is why BEV sales will plateau long before the 100% mark - if a significant proportion of the car using population cannot charge at home or at work and there aren't sufficient chargers at the supermarket or hospital, they won't buy a BEV and will just pay a higher tax (which is incoming soon !) for keeping an ICE car.

So what happens in 2040 ? It's only 17 years away, 5 years of no ICE sales, if manufacturers don't give up on ICE before then as some appear to be doing now with no new development. The government shows no signs of understanding the numbers of chargers required so it's going to be crazy busy atBEV chargers whilst fuel companies are charging £4/litre for petrol and raking it in with limited incentive to convert much space to EV chargers.

Who knows, maybe it'll all change and a single charge will last 90% of people 90% of their week ? But I think that's a bit far fetched right now with current battery and charging tech.

It's a smaller percentage that don't have offstreet parking in the U.K. That's important to consider.

60-70% of homeowners do have offstreet parking. And one has to appreciate that of the remaining 30-40% a very large percentage of this section of society don't actually own a car.

Destination charging is the only economically viable solution. It's where cars are parked for long enough periods but also there is viable customer turnover.

Residential street charging is mainly a non starter as a solution because the meters would lose money, the residents would lose parking spaces and they'd also be having to pay fees to park outside their home.

The typical residential street meter will require a marked bay so instantly you can see the application of these meters will significantly lower the number of cars that can be parked. Residents will not tollerate marked bays and such reductions in capacity.

Then you have the fact that the typical purchase of electricity will be tiny, just a few kw to replace what was used that day but the car will be parked at that meter from 6pm to 8am blocking all other customers. Each meter will be hideously loss making if users pay per kw so they would actually just have to pay a fixed parking fee. No one is going to opt to suddenly start paying a daily fee to park on their home street.

The big expansion is therefore destination charging. Whether it's station parking, office parking, shop parking etc. Where there is parking related to commercial activity there will be chargers.

On top of that, you also have the fact that driveway owners can rent parking and charging. Millions upon millions of domestic chargers can become commercial charge points. This has been being done for years in London and will simply expand out as the potential grows.

All of this can be assisted by some simple law changes such as dictating to employers that if they want their workers to use EVs they must ensure charging facilities for those without home facilities. That's a very simple anti discrimination case. Likewise the banning of chargers owners from being electricity vendors, a simple legal change that prevents acting as principal and only permitting acting as agent so that any electricity that flows through the charger is merely billed a facilitation commission and the end user is buying the electricity direct from their domestic utility provider and billed as such. Charger owners must be only allowed to operate as brokers of the sale of electricity and never the vendor. And broking commissions must come under appropriate regulation and governance to ensure competition and transparency. Frankly, non residential chargers should be placed under the FCA and treated as a form of brokerage activity.

But the key advantage the U.K. has is that it is a small island where electricity is wholly ubiquitous and where there is the ability to be self sufficient in production. This gives us such an enormous advantage over our peer economies and arguably why we should keep pushing the change not just on ourselves but on our economic competitors as what hobbles them empowers our economy.

Go electric for private transport in the U.K. under a mechanism where our main competitors are forced to do the same is brilliant because for us it's actually easy whereas for some peers it's close to impossible without vast cost and economic stalling.

The whole move to 2050 favours the U.K. over almost any peer nation and our closest trading partners. We have very little 20th century heavy industry, we don't generally have car usage needs that exceed the capability of current battery tech, we are the 6th/7th wealthiest economy on the planet, we've already ended the coal economy and our geographic location makes renewable energy self sufficiency easily achievable.

In reality, the U.K. has the easiest path to EV and the easiest path to net zero. So easy we don't even have to be fannying about with Wunderwaffe such as trying to pitch tramp booze as some kind of trendy, super saviour 'efuel'.

I wasn't talking about the UK as a whole, just those densely populated areas like cities with a lot of people who don't have driveways, which would benefit most from electric cars. It's pointless including every area in the UK as anybody with a driveway already has a choice, and most BEVs are I'd bet almost 99% used by people who can charge at home.

But as has already been posted, there will need to be a massive reduction in private vehicle usage so those in flats and terraced houses in cities and towns, will probably be the first to go public transport and surrender their ability to drive, simply because they won't have a suitable charging location.

I don't think the UK is well placed either, https://www.statista.com/statistics/571564/publicl... we're below Germany, France and The Netherlands. The government don't have a genuine desire to 'go green' and their net zero commitment is about as honest as Boris Johnson.

Just for interest, this chap found a free Porsche charger in the desert in Tunisia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj82dyOTkfQ. Just shows you can if you want to ! This is one of your destination chargers

[DonkeyApple]

SteveKTMer said:

I wasn't talking about the UK as a whole, just those densely populated areas like cities with a lot of people who don't have driveways, which would benefit most from electric cars. It's pointless including every area in the UK as anybody with a driveway already has a choice, and most BEVs are I'd bet almost 99% used by people who can charge at home.

But as has already been posted, there will need to be a massive reduction in private vehicle usage so those in flats and terraced houses in cities and towns, will probably be the first to go public transport and surrender their ability to drive, simply because they won't have a suitable charging location.

I don't think the UK is well placed either, https://www.statista.com/statistics/571564/publicl... we're below Germany, France and The Netherlands. The government don't have a genuine desire to 'go green' and their net zero commitment is about as honest as Boris Johnson.

Just for interest, this chap found a free Porsche charger in the desert in Tunisia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj82dyOTkfQ. Just shows you can if you want to ! This is one of your destination chargers

I doubt that EV charging will drive the reduction of urban car ownership in the U.K. That is a political target of most local Labour authorities and 'clean air' and 'child murderer' policies are the path to removing all cars from all citizens.

Logistically, urban residents in flats are the most likely to not own a car. Car usage in urban environments is typically not just lower but also much lower mileage.

If you fill the residential streets with chargers you cull a massive percentage of parking space plus end up introducing residential parking fees outside people's houses.

Conversely, the average car commute distance in the U.K. is sub 10 miles round trip. The average total car distance across the U.K. is trending to under 20 miles a day.

That's the key date that renders chargers uncommercial for residential streets as almost no one will be buying any electricity so you'd have to charge a standard parking fee for the bay to recoup the cost of installing, maintaining and updating the charger.

But it is also the data that makes it clear that destination charging is the simple solution. It's the network that will be build by early adopter demand so be in existence ahead of when the less affluent have no choice but to finally switch to EV and with most EVs seemingly capable of being used with only needing to be recharged once a week then the user can simply fit that need in with weekly activities where the car is parked at a destination other than home.

What is clouding the issue is the envy of people who have a driveway and a strange bellied that an EV has to be topped back up to full every single night. They don't.

Those who don't have home charging will simply add electricity wherever they park their car away from home. Most of that will be work related parking where the car will be stationary away from home for 8+ hours a day. A lot of other opportunities will be grazing, grabbing 30-60 minutes while running errands.

Urban apartment dwellers who are spending time fretting about how they will charge an EV in 10 to 20 years time are ultimately completely missing the point that the local governments they keep repeatedly electing to authority specifically want to remove any form of car ownership from them long before anyone needs to buy an EV.

That's was urban flat dwellers without private parking should be worried about not how they will easily recharge an EV that they won't be allowed to have!

[Vipers]

Knowing Merton Council they will be on DYL’s

[whirlybird]

Just a thought, as this thread is getting boring>>>>> ARE HEAT SOURCE PUMPS A CON TOO <<<<<<<<< Discus !!!!

[bigothunter]

whirlybird said:

Just a thought, as this thread is getting boring>>>>> ARE HEAT SOURCE PUMPS A CON TOO <<<<<<<<< Discus !!!!

Foul

Heat pump discussion needs a new thread...

[tamore]

whirlybird said:

Just a thought, as this thread is getting boring>>>>> ARE HEAT SOURCE PUMPS A CON TOO <<<<<<<<< Discus !!!!

Too? that would suggest that in some way EVs have been proven to be a con in here.