Life and Death of Li Ion batteries

[Nomme de Plum]

wormus said:

Nomme de Plum said:

I buy my iPhones outright. We do not seem to be suffering the battery life/performance problem you allege.

I know this is PH so cash is king, but what has this got to do with battery life?

It means i keep my old phones back to a 6 which still function.

[SpeckledJim]

DMZ said:

It would be good to know this stuff one way or another as it’s not exactly a small thing to have the battery failing. I don’t know if I would trust a reading from the car re battery capacity as it changes with ambient temp so those readings tend to be fairly random.

They aren't at all random.

[Nomme de Plum]

Earthdweller said:

Nomme de Plum said:

I buy my iPhones outright. We do not seem to be suffering the battery life/performance problem you allege.

So do I

This is my 2 year old iPhone now, it has 80% capacity and it’s performance over the last 3 months has deteriorated massively to the point it won’t last a full day, my wife’s bought at the same time is even worse and literally lasts a couple of hours

It really don’t think the above example is unique at all, it’s worth reading the first paragraph below

My 12 is 89% and 10 81%.

Edit the 81% is Model 6

Edited by Nomme de Plum on Tuesday 28th February 17:11

[limpsfield]

Can we have a chart that shows quality of post degradation, after a number of posts on something that you don't know very much about and don't have to buy?

[GT9]

wormus said:

Oh good, another thread to illicit irrational hatred from the EV freaks are you saying EV battery life is infinite? Here are some randomly selected facts to help with discussion https://www.midtronics.com/blog/do-electric-car-ev...

Active battery management is a factor but so is the rate of (rapid) charge and discharge. It’s commonly accepted that an EV battery needs replacing every 10 years or 100k miles.

And you were doing so well recently with your new-found 'rational' approach to discussing the ins and outs of EVs.

Sorry to read about your relapse.

[anonymous-user]

SpeckledJim said:

Commonly accepted by you, perhaps. Who else?

Everyone it seems.

Electric cars with a typical eight-year battery warranty:

Audi: 8 years, 100,000 miles
BMW and MINI: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Honda: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Jaguar: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Lexus**: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Mazda: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Mercedes EQ: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Nissan: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Ora (Funky Cat): 8 years, 100,000 miles
Polestar: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Porsche: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Renault: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Seat: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Stellantis (Peugeot, Citroen, DS, Vauxhall, Fiat): 8 years, 100,000 miles
Toyota**: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Tesla: Model 3 and Model Y RWD: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Volkswagen: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Volvo: 8 years, 100,000 miles

[DMZ]

SpeckledJim said:

They aren't at all random.

Except they are

[GT9]

wormus said:

Everyone it seems.

Electric cars with a typical eight-year battery warranty:

Audi: 8 years, 100,000 miles
BMW and MINI: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Honda: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Jaguar: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Lexus**: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Mazda: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Mercedes EQ: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Nissan: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Ora (Funky Cat): 8 years, 100,000 miles
Polestar: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Porsche: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Renault: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Seat: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Stellantis (Peugeot, Citroen, DS, Vauxhall, Fiat): 8 years, 100,000 miles
Toyota**: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Tesla: Model 3 and Model Y RWD: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Volkswagen: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Volvo: 8 years, 100,000 miles

Did your engine (and everyone else's you know) go bang on the day the warranty expired?
What has warranty length got to do with average life expectancy?

[Muzzer79]

wormus said:

SpeckledJim said:

Commonly accepted by you, perhaps. Who else?

Everyone it seems.

Electric cars with a typical eight-year battery warranty:

Audi: 8 years, 100,000 miles
BMW and MINI: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Honda: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Jaguar: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Lexus**: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Mazda: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Mercedes EQ: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Nissan: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Ora (Funky Cat): 8 years, 100,000 miles
Polestar: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Porsche: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Renault: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Seat: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Stellantis (Peugeot, Citroen, DS, Vauxhall, Fiat): 8 years, 100,000 miles
Toyota**: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Tesla: Model 3 and Model Y RWD: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Volkswagen: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Volvo: 8 years, 100,000 miles

My ICE BMW had a warranty that covered the engine for 3 years or 60000 miles

Does that mean it's commonly accepted that the engine will go pop after 3 years?

(Hint - it hasn't)

[anonymous-user]

GT9 said:

That's right, a small passively-cooled phone battery differs in no way at all to a large, liquid-cooled actively-managed 400V EV battery. In fact, I've got a Tesla battery stuck to my ear right now, that's how similar they are. What does 20% performance even mean?

GT9 said:

wormus said:

Oh good, another thread to illicit irrational hatred from the EV freaks are you saying EV battery life is infinite? Here are some randomly selected facts to help with discussion https://www.midtronics.com/blog/do-electric-car-ev...

Active battery management is a factor but so is the rate of (rapid) charge and discharge. It’s commonly accepted that an EV battery needs replacing every 10 years or 100k miles.

And you were doing so well recently with your new-found 'rational' approach to discussing the ins and outs of EVs.

Sorry to read about your relapse.

I could say the same!

[Nomme de Plum]

GT9 said:

wormus said:

Everyone it seems.

Electric cars with a typical eight-year battery warranty:

Audi: 8 years, 100,000 miles
BMW and MINI: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Honda: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Jaguar: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Lexus**: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Mazda: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Mercedes EQ: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Nissan: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Ora (Funky Cat): 8 years, 100,000 miles
Polestar: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Porsche: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Renault: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Seat: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Stellantis (Peugeot, Citroen, DS, Vauxhall, Fiat): 8 years, 100,000 miles
Toyota**: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Tesla: Model 3 and Model Y RWD: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Volkswagen: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Volvo: 8 years, 100,000 miles

Did your engine (and everyone else's you know) go bang on the day the warranty expired?
What has warranty length got to do with average life expectancy?

If the battery warranty is 8 years then manufactures will know that useable life will be much, much longer.

[limpsfield]

GT9 said:

wormus said:

Everyone it seems.

Electric cars with a typical eight-year battery warranty:

Audi: 8 years, 100,000 miles
BMW and MINI: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Honda: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Jaguar: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Lexus**: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Mazda: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Mercedes EQ: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Nissan: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Ora (Funky Cat): 8 years, 100,000 miles
Polestar: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Porsche: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Renault: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Seat: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Stellantis (Peugeot, Citroen, DS, Vauxhall, Fiat): 8 years, 100,000 miles
Toyota**: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Tesla: Model 3 and Model Y RWD: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Volkswagen: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Volvo: 8 years, 100,000 miles

Did your engine (and everyone else's you know) go bang on the day the warranty expired?
What has warranty length got to do with average life expectancy?

Exactly. This has to be trolling? Just because something has an eight year warranty doesn't mean it dies after.

One of the first google hits for how long do electric car batteries last.


https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/electric-cars/charging...

"Most EVs use lithium-ion batteries. These degrade over hundreds of charge/use cycles, becoming less effective in the process.

However, drivers can expect upwards of 10 years or 100,000 miles of use – with reports of twice that distance – from an electric car. As such, the lifespan of an EV is not dissimilar to a conventional petrol or diesel model."


I really don't believe any can be so thick as to think that eight years is the expected life.

[SpeckledJim]

wormus said:

SpeckledJim said:

Commonly accepted by you, perhaps. Who else?

Everyone it seems.

Electric cars with a typical eight-year battery warranty:

Audi: 8 years, 100,000 miles
BMW and MINI: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Honda: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Jaguar: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Lexus**: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Mazda: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Mercedes EQ: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Nissan: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Ora (Funky Cat): 8 years, 100,000 miles
Polestar: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Porsche: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Renault: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Seat: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Stellantis (Peugeot, Citroen, DS, Vauxhall, Fiat): 8 years, 100,000 miles
Toyota**: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Tesla: Model 3 and Model Y RWD: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Volkswagen: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Volvo: 8 years, 100,000 miles

You seem to be saying that all the manufacturers have considerably more confidence in their new-fangled, unproven EVs than they do in their century-in-the-making, solid-as-a-rock ICE cars?

I don't think that's really the point you wanted to make, was it?

[SpeckledJim]

DMZ said:

SpeckledJim said:

They aren't at all random.

Except they are

What do you think is being measured in order to come up with a random result?

[anonymous-user]

GT9 said:

wormus said:

Everyone it seems.

Electric cars with a typical eight-year battery warranty:

Audi: 8 years, 100,000 miles
BMW and MINI: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Honda: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Jaguar: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Lexus**: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Mazda: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Mercedes EQ: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Nissan: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Ora (Funky Cat): 8 years, 100,000 miles
Polestar: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Porsche: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Renault: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Seat: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Stellantis (Peugeot, Citroen, DS, Vauxhall, Fiat): 8 years, 100,000 miles
Toyota**: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Tesla: Model 3 and Model Y RWD: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Volkswagen: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Volvo: 8 years, 100,000 miles

Did your engine (and everyone else's you know) go bang on the day the warranty expired?
What has warranty length got to do with average life expectancy?

Helps me to prove my point. Why limit warranties if they don’t matter?

[Muzzer79]

wormus said:

GT9 said:

wormus said:

Everyone it seems.

Electric cars with a typical eight-year battery warranty:

Audi: 8 years, 100,000 miles
BMW and MINI: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Honda: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Jaguar: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Lexus**: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Mazda: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Mercedes EQ: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Nissan: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Ora (Funky Cat): 8 years, 100,000 miles
Polestar: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Porsche: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Renault: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Seat: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Stellantis (Peugeot, Citroen, DS, Vauxhall, Fiat): 8 years, 100,000 miles
Toyota**: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Tesla: Model 3 and Model Y RWD: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Volkswagen: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Volvo: 8 years, 100,000 miles

Did your engine (and everyone else's you know) go bang on the day the warranty expired?
What has warranty length got to do with average life expectancy?

Helps me to prove my point. Why limit warranties if they don’t matter?

OK, you really must be trolling now.

[SpeckledJim]

Muzzer79 said:

wormus said:

GT9 said:

wormus said:

Everyone it seems.

Electric cars with a typical eight-year battery warranty:

Audi: 8 years, 100,000 miles
BMW and MINI: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Honda: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Jaguar: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Lexus**: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Mazda: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Mercedes EQ: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Nissan: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Ora (Funky Cat): 8 years, 100,000 miles
Polestar: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Porsche: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Renault: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Seat: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Stellantis (Peugeot, Citroen, DS, Vauxhall, Fiat): 8 years, 100,000 miles
Toyota**: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Tesla: Model 3 and Model Y RWD: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Volkswagen: 8 years, 100,000 miles
Volvo: 8 years, 100,000 miles

Did your engine (and everyone else's you know) go bang on the day the warranty expired?
What has warranty length got to do with average life expectancy?

Helps me to prove my point. Why limit warranties if they don’t matter?

OK, you really must be trolling now.

Hopeless isn't it.

Why doesn't he just stick to stuff that can't be argued, like 'I like brum brum noises' and 'I fancy the receptionist at the garage' and 'I like the pretty patterns oil makes in the puddles on my drive'.

[anonymous-user]

SpeckledJim said:

You seem to be saying that all the manufacturers have considerably more confidence in their new-fangled, unproven EVs than they do in their century-in-the-making, solid-as-a-rock ICE cars?

I don't think that's really the point you wanted to make, was it?

That’s like saying my Peugeot salt/pepper grinder will last longer than one of their EV offerings. Different technologies so your point (whatever it was) is irrelevant.

[otolith]

Why the FUD-spreading?

[SpeckledJim]

wormus said:

SpeckledJim said:

You seem to be saying that all the manufacturers have considerably more confidence in their new-fangled, unproven EVs than they do in their century-in-the-making, solid-as-a-rock ICE cars?

I don't think that's really the point you wanted to make, was it?

That’s like saying my Peugeot salt/pepper grinder will last longer than one of their EV offerings. Different technologies so your point (whatever it was) is irrelevant.

You've entered a thread about how rubbish EVs are, and tried to support the OP by lobbing in evidence that the manufacturers all back their EVs to be a lot less rubbish than their ICE.

You've noticed the OP hasn't thanked you for your help?