The powers of EV's
Discussion
robinessex said:
sjg said:
robinessex said:
Why not limit the power output to extend the range?
It doesn't work like that with EVs. As petrol engines get more powerful they get less efficient - more capacity, heavier parts moving, more heat loss. The motors Tesla use are over 90% efficient (ie more than 90% of the energy in gets turned into motion) and it doesn't matter how fast or slow you're going to get that.The biggest reason the performance models get less rated range is bigger wheels and stickier tyres.
OutInTheShed said:
What's it like for a young person, getting insurance on a mid-range EV?
Given that quotes can be pretty high for a 22 year old in a 2 litre Mondeo, am I right in guessing a 150BHP EV could be pricy?
Depends on the exact car, but apparently several are now on average cheaper to insure than the ICE equivalent - so all things being roughly equal I would expect the premiums for a young driver to be about the same in either car type.Given that quotes can be pretty high for a 22 year old in a 2 litre Mondeo, am I right in guessing a 150BHP EV could be pricy?
Why would you assume a 150bhp EV would cost more to insure than a 2L ICE car, which itself probably has about the same power?
It's true that a 1000bhp saloon (EV or ICE) is potentially dangerous when driven by someone who decides to use that much power and doesn't have the skillset.
I can also see where the OP is coming from in terms of a Lambo etc being 'obviously' fast and demanding of respect where a supercar quick saloon might catch an unwitting driver unawares if they haven't paid too much attention to what it actually is they are driving. But then one would hope anyone buying a 1000bhp vehicle would realise what that is and it doesn't need to be 1000bhp to be too much...EV or ICE.
I would argue that most cars on roads today have more power and speed potential than their drivers have skill to control in any emergency. The driving exam only tests the ability to understand the basic rules of the road and driving ability and doesn't test for any speed over the legal limits - nor does it test for any kind of emergency.
Professional drivers still crash. The OP might fancy himself as being above Mr Average in the driving skill stakes - might also just be in his own mind - as he hoons about in his 400bhp ICE car because 'speed matters' innit? Perhaps this is more a nightmare the OP has being overtaken by "Sharon" in her Tesla and not liking it. Not one bit.
I can also see where the OP is coming from in terms of a Lambo etc being 'obviously' fast and demanding of respect where a supercar quick saloon might catch an unwitting driver unawares if they haven't paid too much attention to what it actually is they are driving. But then one would hope anyone buying a 1000bhp vehicle would realise what that is and it doesn't need to be 1000bhp to be too much...EV or ICE.
I would argue that most cars on roads today have more power and speed potential than their drivers have skill to control in any emergency. The driving exam only tests the ability to understand the basic rules of the road and driving ability and doesn't test for any speed over the legal limits - nor does it test for any kind of emergency.
Professional drivers still crash. The OP might fancy himself as being above Mr Average in the driving skill stakes - might also just be in his own mind - as he hoons about in his 400bhp ICE car because 'speed matters' innit? Perhaps this is more a nightmare the OP has being overtaken by "Sharon" in her Tesla and not liking it. Not one bit.
TheDeuce said:
Depends on the exact car, but apparently several are now on average cheaper to insure than the ICE equivalent - so all things being roughly equal I would expect the premiums for a young driver to be about the same in either car type.
For me, swapping the M140i for a Model 3 Performance (roughly equivalent) looks to be a a few hundred quid more expensive to insure and the cheapest quote mandates a black box! I might be an outlier though, would be interested in other's experiences...Chris
PastelNata said:
It's true that a 1000bhp saloon (EV or ICE) is potentially dangerous when driven by someone who decides to use that much power and doesn't have the skillset.
I can also see where the OP is coming from in terms of a Lambo etc being 'obviously' fast and demanding of respect where a supercar quick saloon might catch an unwitting driver unawares if they haven't paid too much attention to what it actually is they are driving. But then one would hope anyone buying a 1000bhp vehicle would realise what that is and it doesn't need to be 1000bhp to be too much...EV or ICE.
I would argue that most cars on roads today have more power and speed potential than their drivers have skill to control in any emergency. The driving exam only tests the ability to understand the basic rules of the road and driving ability and doesn't test for any speed over the legal limits - nor does it test for any kind of emergency.
Professional drivers still crash. The OP might fancy himself as being above Mr Average in the driving skill stakes - might also just be in his own mind - as he hoons about in his 400bhp ICE car because 'speed matters' innit? Perhaps this is more a nightmare the OP has being overtaken by "Sharon" in her Tesla and not liking it. Not one bit.
One does wonder if part of the upset/worry might be down to the fact that once upon a time 400bhp was quite impressive, but now loads of EV's offer that and more - certainly the faster Tesla's don't shout about their power but could easily humiliate a traditional performance car, 911 etc.I can also see where the OP is coming from in terms of a Lambo etc being 'obviously' fast and demanding of respect where a supercar quick saloon might catch an unwitting driver unawares if they haven't paid too much attention to what it actually is they are driving. But then one would hope anyone buying a 1000bhp vehicle would realise what that is and it doesn't need to be 1000bhp to be too much...EV or ICE.
I would argue that most cars on roads today have more power and speed potential than their drivers have skill to control in any emergency. The driving exam only tests the ability to understand the basic rules of the road and driving ability and doesn't test for any speed over the legal limits - nor does it test for any kind of emergency.
Professional drivers still crash. The OP might fancy himself as being above Mr Average in the driving skill stakes - might also just be in his own mind - as he hoons about in his 400bhp ICE car because 'speed matters' innit? Perhaps this is more a nightmare the OP has being overtaken by "Sharon" in her Tesla and not liking it. Not one bit.
But I just don't see how anyone could buy any significantly powerful EV without being aware of the power. I can't think of any powerful EV's that aren't also available as far less powerful, cheaper variants. No one is going to buy the more expensive version of a car without first having some vague idea of why it is more expensive - and if the only difference is power output, they sure as hell won't pay the extra unless they actually care about power.
This really does seem like worrying over nothing tbh. We've had high powered EV's on the roads for getting on a decade now and whilst the media have keenly reported on any incidents that could be purely down to the EV nature of the car, the fact is that there isn't a demonstrable increase in incidents or a reduction in overall safety - if there was insurance premiums would be through the roof and mobs of victims would be marching to downing street to demand the insanity is stopped.
ScoobyChris said:
TheDeuce said:
Depends on the exact car, but apparently several are now on average cheaper to insure than the ICE equivalent - so all things being roughly equal I would expect the premiums for a young driver to be about the same in either car type.
For me, swapping the M140i for a Model 3 Performance (roughly equivalent) looks to be a a few hundred quid more expensive to insure and the cheapest quote mandates a black box! I might be an outlier though, would be interested in other's experiences...Chris
And what is the value of your current M140i vs the M3P you were looking at? Assuming the M3P has a greater value, and far greater power output, would you not expect the premium to be quite a bit higher?
PastelNata said:
It's true that a 1000bhp saloon (EV or ICE) is potentially dangerous when driven by someone who decides to use that much power and doesn't have the skillset.
Quite.It's likely that 'Sharon' or 'the average punter' would actually be safer than someone who likes to drive fast but doesn't actually have the skills to do so safely.
Maybe the OP should hand back his 400BHP supercharged whatsit, just in case
smn159 said:
Quite.
It's likely that 'Sharon' or 'the average punter' would actually be safer than someone who likes to drive fast but doesn't actually have the skills to do so safely.
Maybe the OP should hand back his 400BHP supercharged whatsit, just in case
I guess it's projection: "I can't handle my car, therefore any car with more power is dangerous"It's likely that 'Sharon' or 'the average punter' would actually be safer than someone who likes to drive fast but doesn't actually have the skills to do so safely.
Maybe the OP should hand back his 400BHP supercharged whatsit, just in case
PastelNata said:
It's true that a 1000bhp saloon (EV or ICE) is potentially dangerous when driven by someone who decides to use that much power and doesn't have the skillset.
I can also see where the OP is coming from in terms of a Lambo etc being 'obviously' fast and demanding of respect where a supercar quick saloon might catch an unwitting driver unawares if they haven't paid too much attention to what it actually is they are driving. But then one would hope anyone buying a 1000bhp vehicle would realise what that is and it doesn't need to be 1000bhp to be too much...EV or ICE.
I would argue that most cars on roads today have more power and speed potential than their drivers have skill to control in any emergency. The driving exam only tests the ability to understand the basic rules of the road and driving ability and doesn't test for any speed over the legal limits - nor does it test for any kind of emergency.
Professional drivers still crash. The OP might fancy himself as being above Mr Average in the driving skill stakes - might also just be in his own mind - as he hoons about in his 400bhp ICE car because 'speed matters' innit? Perhaps this is more a nightmare the OP has being overtaken by "Sharon" in her Tesla and not liking it. Not one bit.
Having qualified as a driving instructor with BSM, I'm happy my driving is better than average. I'm not averse to making progress (safely) when the opportunity arises. It never ceases to make me laugh at those who make comments on assumptions they've made.I can also see where the OP is coming from in terms of a Lambo etc being 'obviously' fast and demanding of respect where a supercar quick saloon might catch an unwitting driver unawares if they haven't paid too much attention to what it actually is they are driving. But then one would hope anyone buying a 1000bhp vehicle would realise what that is and it doesn't need to be 1000bhp to be too much...EV or ICE.
I would argue that most cars on roads today have more power and speed potential than their drivers have skill to control in any emergency. The driving exam only tests the ability to understand the basic rules of the road and driving ability and doesn't test for any speed over the legal limits - nor does it test for any kind of emergency.
Professional drivers still crash. The OP might fancy himself as being above Mr Average in the driving skill stakes - might also just be in his own mind - as he hoons about in his 400bhp ICE car because 'speed matters' innit? Perhaps this is more a nightmare the OP has being overtaken by "Sharon" in her Tesla and not liking it. Not one bit.
ScoobyChris said:
For me, swapping the M140i for a Model 3 Performance (roughly equivalent) looks to be a a few hundred quid more expensive to insure and the cheapest quote mandates a black box! I might be an outlier though, would be interested in other's experiences...
Chris
My 440i and my Model 3 Performance are both similar to insure, as was my previous S3 Saloon.Chris
The Model 3 is the easiest of the three to drive sedately, and also the easiest of the three to drive with gusto.
robinessex said:
Having qualified as a driving instructor with BSM, I'm happy my driving is better than average. I'm not averse to making progress (safely) when the opportunity arises. It never ceases to make me laugh at those who make comments on assumptions they've made.
Wouldn’t catch you making assumptions, would we, Robin?robinessex said:
Having qualified as a driving instructor with BSM, I'm happy my driving is better than average. I'm not averse to making progress (safely) when the opportunity arises. It never ceases to make me laugh at those who make comments on assumptions they've made.
Speaking of assumptions, what was it about “Sharons” in powerful cars?Edited by Undercover McNoName on Friday 17th March 19:30
TheDeuce said:
OutInTheShed said:
What's it like for a young person, getting insurance on a mid-range EV?
Given that quotes can be pretty high for a 22 year old in a 2 litre Mondeo, am I right in guessing a 150BHP EV could be pricy?
Depends on the exact car, but apparently several are now on average cheaper to insure than the ICE equivalent - so all things being roughly equal I would expect the premiums for a young driver to be about the same in either car type.Given that quotes can be pretty high for a 22 year old in a 2 litre Mondeo, am I right in guessing a 150BHP EV could be pricy?
Why would you assume a 150bhp EV would cost more to insure than a 2L ICE car, which itself probably has about the same power?
And it's not like we're in the worst of the Urban Badlands.
We're mostly old gits one here, we forget there's a world of young people needing transport.
I suspect black boxes and software power limits may come into play?
What were your cohort like when you were 17?
Most of mine were a menace in 1300cc Escorts and the like, although some of us had learned a few things falling off 'high powered' 50cc mopeds.
OutInTheShed said:
TheDeuce said:
OutInTheShed said:
What's it like for a young person, getting insurance on a mid-range EV?
Given that quotes can be pretty high for a 22 year old in a 2 litre Mondeo, am I right in guessing a 150BHP EV could be pricy?
Depends on the exact car, but apparently several are now on average cheaper to insure than the ICE equivalent - so all things being roughly equal I would expect the premiums for a young driver to be about the same in either car type.Given that quotes can be pretty high for a 22 year old in a 2 litre Mondeo, am I right in guessing a 150BHP EV could be pricy?
Why would you assume a 150bhp EV would cost more to insure than a 2L ICE car, which itself probably has about the same power?
And it's not like we're in the worst of the Urban Badlands.
We're mostly old gits one here, we forget there's a world of young people needing transport.
I suspect black boxes and software power limits may come into play?
What were your cohort like when you were 17?
Most of mine were a menace in 1300cc Escorts and the like, although some of us had learned a few things falling off 'high powered' 50cc mopeds.
Add in the age of the car and relative lack of safety kit, and a newer car with the same power could actually be cheaper. The golf GTi dropped 3 insurance groups with the simple addition of radar brake assist..
And as said, if it's an EV they all have the modern safety kit and are almost impossible to break reaction in. I expect the EV premiums to keep dropping as more data comes in.
TheDeuce said:
A 22 yo in a 2 litre car is going to get a high quote
Add in the age of the car and relative lack of safety kit, and a newer car with the same power could actually be cheaper. The golf GTi dropped 3 insurance groups with the simple addition of radar brake assist..
And as said, if it's an EV they all have the modern safety kit and are almost impossible to break reaction in. I expect the EV premiums to keep dropping as more data comes in.
They're expensive to insure as they're difficult and time consuming to repair. Can take a considerable period to get spare parts for most EV's apparently, which adds significantly to the overall cost.Add in the age of the car and relative lack of safety kit, and a newer car with the same power could actually be cheaper. The golf GTi dropped 3 insurance groups with the simple addition of radar brake assist..
And as said, if it's an EV they all have the modern safety kit and are almost impossible to break reaction in. I expect the EV premiums to keep dropping as more data comes in.
SWoll said:
TheDeuce said:
A 22 yo in a 2 litre car is going to get a high quote
Add in the age of the car and relative lack of safety kit, and a newer car with the same power could actually be cheaper. The golf GTi dropped 3 insurance groups with the simple addition of radar brake assist..
And as said, if it's an EV they all have the modern safety kit and are almost impossible to break reaction in. I expect the EV premiums to keep dropping as more data comes in.
They're expensive to insure as they're difficult and time consuming to repair. Can take a considerable period to get spare parts for most EV's apparently, which adds significantly to the overall cost.Add in the age of the car and relative lack of safety kit, and a newer car with the same power could actually be cheaper. The golf GTi dropped 3 insurance groups with the simple addition of radar brake assist..
And as said, if it's an EV they all have the modern safety kit and are almost impossible to break reaction in. I expect the EV premiums to keep dropping as more data comes in.
TheDeuce said:
In what way are those cars roughly equivalent? BMW = 340bhp, 4.6 seconds, M3P = 527bhp, 3.1 seconds.
And what is the value of your current M140i vs the M3P you were looking at? Assuming the M3P has a greater value, and far greater power output, would you not expect the premium to be quite a bit higher?
About £5k difference in value, similar class car and real world performance not world’s apart. M140i is £540 and M3P over £800 with big excess.And what is the value of your current M140i vs the M3P you were looking at? Assuming the M3P has a greater value, and far greater power output, would you not expect the premium to be quite a bit higher?
What ICE car should I be comparing the M3P to?
Chris
ETA, an equivalent value/age M4 competition is £650.
Edited by ScoobyChris on Friday 17th March 21:07
oop north said:
Had a few quotes in the last week:
1. Tesla model s long range 2020 value £56k quote £1,600
2. Volvo c40 2022 value £55k (that’s the new value) £560
3. Volvo xc90 T8 2017 value £30k £560
4. New shape Range Rover sport 440e value £90k, £860
The model s seems to be an outlier
Tesla parts supply is deeply crap (though not actually very expensive) so a pranged Tesla might put its owner in an expensive rental car for quite a long time. 1. Tesla model s long range 2020 value £56k quote £1,600
2. Volvo c40 2022 value £55k (that’s the new value) £560
3. Volvo xc90 T8 2017 value £30k £560
4. New shape Range Rover sport 440e value £90k, £860
The model s seems to be an outlier
May partly explain the price?
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