Dealer: the Taycan was good for us; it's now a disaster
Discussion
alock said:
What am I missing here? Don't most normal cars lose 40-50% depreciation in their first 3 years?
Brand new Taycan 4S is £87k.
3 year old versions on Autotrader start around £70k.
That's 20%. Owners should be very happy.
This is still the pertinent point, after reading this thread I had a quick shifty and they don't look cheap compared to new prices to me! We had a look at ordering one a couple of years ago when we got our EV and to get it half decent looking and feeling it was near enough £90k, certainly over £80k.Brand new Taycan 4S is £87k.
3 year old versions on Autotrader start around £70k.
That's 20%. Owners should be very happy.
Buying one a couple of years later with thousands of miles on for £15k less? Plus no tax write down as Deuce explained.
Soupdragon65 said:
It’s not so much that they will move, just that they will move the money to another tax efficient vehicle (in the Broadway sense.)
It’s not fair nor a good look but it’s real life. Making tax fair and also effective is very hard to achieve (probably impossible in fact, you can’t please everyone.) just look at how the recent pensions reforms aimed at senior doctors to help the NHS have had a massive collateral benefit to bankers and other high earners that most of the public wouldn’t want to reward better.
It could be easily fixed - set a tax free amount and then tax everything over that level at the same %age. All tax payers pay the same %age but higher earners pay more in £'s.It’s not fair nor a good look but it’s real life. Making tax fair and also effective is very hard to achieve (probably impossible in fact, you can’t please everyone.) just look at how the recent pensions reforms aimed at senior doctors to help the NHS have had a massive collateral benefit to bankers and other high earners that most of the public wouldn’t want to reward better.
TX.
The article seems to imply that there are a lot of people wanting to get out of Taycans which seems odd to me. Or is it just "its 2 years old now, I must have a new one"? From everything I've seen and read they are good cars. Just keep it?!?
And as for Porsche dealers who have been merrily selling at over list price for a couple of years? Sorry, but I have f
k all sympathy.
And as for Porsche dealers who have been merrily selling at over list price for a couple of years? Sorry, but I have f
k all sympathy.Earthdweller said:
They are not desirable because (most) people don’t want them, It’s not about the quality of the product but I really don’t think private buyers wish to spend £70k on a secondhand four door family car, what is wished for is a £20k used 3 series or a new Corsa
That is Porsche’s problem and why they are piling up on dealer forecourts
Not understanding your point TBH. Of course (most) people can't afford them, has ever been thus with any car of a similar value? That is Porsche’s problem and why they are piling up on dealer forecourts
The problem the Taycan has is that it has lived in a depreciation bubble since launch and sellers/dealers are unwilling to let that go. Used cars are clearly still considered far too close to new cars in value and with finance interest rates so high, people tightening their belts and a significant number of cars hitting the used market at 2-3 years old it's a perfect storm.
As an example the cheapest Taycan for sale on Porsche approved is a 2 owner, 2020 4S with 30k miles on the clock that they are asking £73k for. At the ludicrous 10.9% that Porsche apply on PCP that car over 3 years would cost £89k with a £20k deposit down. A brand new 4S with similar options is £92k.
Used cars will keep building up until sellers get a more realistic with their pricing as no-one is going to accept that 20% depreciation over 3 years and 30k miles on a car that is freely available is realistic. Who wants to buy a 3 year old car and then be the one to take a massive bath on depreciation over the next 3 years when the original owner (in most cases a lease company) got off so lightly?
MrBig said:
The article seems to imply that there are a lot of people wanting to get out of Taycans which seems odd to me. Or is it just "its 2 years old now, I must have a new one"? From everything I've seen and read they are good cars. Just keep it?!?
And as for Porsche dealers who have been merrily selling at over list price for a couple of years? Sorry, but I have fk all sympathy.
90%+ of them will be leased company cars on salary sacrifice etc. so no option to keep them past the end of the term.And as for Porsche dealers who have been merrily selling at over list price for a couple of years? Sorry, but I have f
k all sympathy.Agree on the dealers though, they've been taking the piss for long enough. Time for a reality check.
Edited by SWoll on Monday 20th March 08:25
Olivera said:
OutInTheShed said:
It may just be that these things have to be viewed as A N Other EV, rather than as a Porsche.
Different depreciation profile, different attitude to used cars holding their value.
People are happy to pay big money for used IC Porsches, they are used to a world of Porsche ownership where you can buy a 3 year old one and not lose too much money on it. There's no reason for the Taycan to belong to that world rather than the world where most EVs depreciate like most other cars.
Very good point, that is 'luxury' EVs might well not follow the normal slower Porsche/Ferrari etc depreciation curve and might instead depreciate more rapidly like a normal EV.Different depreciation profile, different attitude to used cars holding their value.
People are happy to pay big money for used IC Porsches, they are used to a world of Porsche ownership where you can buy a 3 year old one and not lose too much money on it. There's no reason for the Taycan to belong to that world rather than the world where most EVs depreciate like most other cars.
I recall the statistic that the majority of 911s ever made are still on the road today. Will a Taycan (arguably just VAG parts bin product) with an outdated and depleted battery even be on the road in 15 years, never mind 25+? Highly unlikely. I suspect that severe depreciation will be the norm for luxury expensive EVs.
skwdenyer said:
Is it “as a Porsche”? Last time I looked, I could pick up Cayennes cheaply second hand. Has that changed? Are *all* Porsches expected not to depreciate? Or is it just the “sporty” stuff?
Yep. Comparing anything to the 911 is pointlessas they exist in their own bubble. The Taycan needs to be looked at next to other similar sized and priced products. Panamera's can be picked up from £15k for a 13 year old first model year example, the cheapest 911 of the same vintage is £37k..Pflanzgarten said:
Plus no tax write down as Deuce explained.
Untrue - didn’t go to look for exactly what Deuce said as what perhaps matters is more that your understanding is incomplete. Buying a used EV through a company you cannot get the 100% write down in year one. But over the life of the vehicle you still get full relief. And in fact with the increase in corporation tax rate from 19% to a marginal rate above £50k profits of 26.5% in April 2023 I would not want right now to have bought a car with a 100% write down at 19% when I would be facing 26.5% tax on disposal proceeds. I would either wait until the new accounting period before buying a new EV or would even prefer a used one as I could spread the depreciation relief over a few years. You would have to have profits over £200k pa to be able to get relief at 26.5% on £60k pension contribution and a £100k EV (you want over £50k profits left after the deductions so you keep a full £50k taxed at 19% and all your relief is at 26.5%)
And the 100% first year allowance / initial allowance is just a timing difference anyway, not an absolute saving - too many people think it’s exciting, but it never was with low interest rates, and it’s not much more interesting now
oop north said:
Untrue - didn’t go to look for exactly what Deuce said as what perhaps matters is more that your understanding is incomplete.
Buying a used EV through a company you cannot get the 100% write down in year one. But over the life of the vehicle you still get full relief. And in fact with the increase in corporation tax rate from 19% to a marginal rate above £50k profits of 26.5% in April 2023 I would not want right now to have bought a car with a 100% write down at 19% when I would be facing 26.5% tax on disposal proceeds. I would either wait until the new accounting period before buying a new EV or would even prefer a used one as I could spread the depreciation relief over a few years. You would have to have profits over £200k pa to be able to get relief at 26.5% on £60k pension contribution and a £100k EV (you want over £50k profits left after the deductions so you keep a full £50k taxed at 19% and all your relief is at 26.5%)
And the 100% first year allowance / initial allowance is just a timing difference anyway, not an absolute saving - too many people think it’s exciting, but it never was with low interest rates, and it’s not much more interesting now
Indeed, I bought a nearly new EV a year ago and was more than happy to write it down gradually (ISTR 18% per year) for this very reason. If I'd bought a new one eligible for 100% I would have still done the same. Why go for 100% tax relief at 19% knowing you might have to repay a chunk of it at 26.5%Buying a used EV through a company you cannot get the 100% write down in year one. But over the life of the vehicle you still get full relief. And in fact with the increase in corporation tax rate from 19% to a marginal rate above £50k profits of 26.5% in April 2023 I would not want right now to have bought a car with a 100% write down at 19% when I would be facing 26.5% tax on disposal proceeds. I would either wait until the new accounting period before buying a new EV or would even prefer a used one as I could spread the depreciation relief over a few years. You would have to have profits over £200k pa to be able to get relief at 26.5% on £60k pension contribution and a £100k EV (you want over £50k profits left after the deductions so you keep a full £50k taxed at 19% and all your relief is at 26.5%)
And the 100% first year allowance / initial allowance is just a timing difference anyway, not an absolute saving - too many people think it’s exciting, but it never was with low interest rates, and it’s not much more interesting now
Speaking with a dealer recently they seemed to think 100% write down was a big deal for most company buyers hence people placing factory orders over ample discounted pre-registered stock.
I’m surprised it’s taken so long for this info to come out into the public domain, I mentioned it on here 2 months ago when I got shot of my 2nd one. Which is actually still up for sale with the dealer even though it’s had multiple price drops! They’ve gone from being highly sought after to a bit of a pariah. I honestly believe this is down to the dire range issue in colder weather and the very poor reliability. Earlier cars didn’t have these issues but the substituted chips are letting them down.
SWoll said:
Earthdweller said:
They are not desirable because (most) people don’t want them, It’s not about the quality of the product but I really don’t think private buyers wish to spend £70k on a secondhand four door family car, what is wished for is a £20k used 3 series or a new Corsa
That is Porsche’s problem and why they are piling up on dealer forecourts
Not understanding your point TBH. Of course (most) people can't afford them, has ever been thus with any car of a similar value? That is Porsche’s problem and why they are piling up on dealer forecourts
The problem the Taycan has is that it has lived in a depreciation bubble since launch and sellers/dealers are unwilling to let that go. Used cars are clearly still considered far too close to new cars in value and with finance interest rates so high, people tightening their belts and a significant number of cars hitting the used market at 2-3 years old it's a perfect storm.
As an example the cheapest Taycan for sale on Porsche approved is a 2 owner, 2020 4S with 30k miles on the clock that they are asking £73k for. At the ludicrous 10.9% that Porsche apply on PCP that car over 3 years would cost £89k with a £20k deposit down. A brand new 4S with similar options is £92k.
Used cars will keep building up until sellers get a more realistic with their pricing as no-one is going to accept that 20% depreciation over 3 years and 30k miles on a car that is freely available is realistic. Who wants to buy a 3 year old car and then be the one to take a massive bath on depreciation over the next 3 years when the original owner (in most cases a lease company) got off so lightly?
MrBig said:
The article seems to imply that there are a lot of people wanting to get out of Taycans which seems odd to me. Or is it just "its 2 years old now, I must have a new one"? From everything I've seen and read they are good cars. Just keep it?!?
And as for Porsche dealers who have been merrily selling at over list price for a couple of years? Sorry, but I have fk all sympathy.
90%+ of them will be leased company cars on salary sacrifice etc. so no option to keep them past the end of the term.And as for Porsche dealers who have been merrily selling at over list price for a couple of years? Sorry, but I have f
k all sympathy.Agree on the dealers though, they've been taking the piss for long enough. Time for a reality check.
Edited by SWoll on Monday 20th March 08:25
oop north said:
Pflanzgarten said:
Plus no tax write down as Deuce explained.
Untrue - didn’t go to look for exactly what Deuce said as what perhaps matters is more that your understanding is incomplete. Buying a used EV through a company you cannot get the 100% write down in year one. But over the life of the vehicle you still get full relief. And in fact with the increase in corporation tax rate from 19% to a marginal rate above £50k profits of 26.5% in April 2023 I would not want right now to have bought a car with a 100% write down at 19% when I would be facing 26.5% tax on disposal proceeds. I would either wait until the new accounting period before buying a new EV or would even prefer a used one as I could spread the depreciation relief over a few years. You would have to have profits over £200k pa to be able to get relief at 26.5% on £60k pension contribution and a £100k EV (you want over £50k profits left after the deductions so you keep a full £50k taxed at 19% and all your relief is at 26.5%)
And the 100% first year allowance / initial allowance is just a timing difference anyway, not an absolute saving - too many people think it’s exciting, but it never was with low interest rates, and it’s not much more interesting now
SWoll said:
The counter argument would be that the poorest in society aren't subsiding anything, it's the high earners who are subsidising them with tax contributions that far outweigh what they take out of the system over the same period?
As an example 4 x £30k earners will pay a combined £20k in tax over a year. 1 x £120k earner will pay £45k in tax over the same period.
Although if you include all elements of taxation such as NI and VAT (which is if course a highly regressive tax) then those figures change quite a bitAs an example 4 x £30k earners will pay a combined £20k in tax over a year. 1 x £120k earner will pay £45k in tax over the same period.
The prices of 3 year old large luxury cars have always plummeted to between 30-50%. Presumably precisely because they are a ‘luxury’ (ie something people want rather than need as a mid sized saloon or now cross over does the same job adequately well.)
The Government has created a bubble where the sales of Taycans has been inflated by attracting people who would in previous years have previously leased those mid sized cars (3/5 series, Audi A6) on the one hand or 911’s on the other hand.
That’s now deflating. Trying to manipulate markets is rarely a good idea.
None of this has much to do with the qualities of a Taycan or EVs in general it’s just market dynamics.
The mugs were the traders/ dealers buying them in the first place instead of leaving the lease companies holding the baby.
The Taycan should be following the depreciation curve of an S class not a 911
The Government has created a bubble where the sales of Taycans has been inflated by attracting people who would in previous years have previously leased those mid sized cars (3/5 series, Audi A6) on the one hand or 911’s on the other hand.
That’s now deflating. Trying to manipulate markets is rarely a good idea.
None of this has much to do with the qualities of a Taycan or EVs in general it’s just market dynamics.
The mugs were the traders/ dealers buying them in the first place instead of leaving the lease companies holding the baby.
The Taycan should be following the depreciation curve of an S class not a 911
Edited by Soupdragon65 on Wednesday 22 March 05:56
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