New Ford electric Explorer
Discussion
C.A.R. said:
Ford is desperate - news today that their EV sector is losing them billions annually and set to cost them another $3b this year.
They were sitting ducks, like a lot of manufacturers, when Tesla was scaling everything up and has become almost the defacto white-goods EV, Ford who have historically made those mainstream white-goods cars have literally nothing to offer. Fiesta / Focus sales down to the point where they're being pulled altogether.
Their new strategy needs to be to create a half-decent, cheap-but-profitable car. No small task, especially when the ID4 isn't exactly a bargain...
Based on the ID4 - why is that? Platform sharing isn't uncommon but Ford had their own EV program in the form of the Mach-E and F150 Lightning already.
All the big producers will report massive losses as they transition to EV - which they must. Toyota are holding back thus far but they will take a huge hit too.They were sitting ducks, like a lot of manufacturers, when Tesla was scaling everything up and has become almost the defacto white-goods EV, Ford who have historically made those mainstream white-goods cars have literally nothing to offer. Fiesta / Focus sales down to the point where they're being pulled altogether.
Their new strategy needs to be to create a half-decent, cheap-but-profitable car. No small task, especially when the ID4 isn't exactly a bargain...
Based on the ID4 - why is that? Platform sharing isn't uncommon but Ford had their own EV program in the form of the Mach-E and F150 Lightning already.
Imagine needing to run production lines for dying ICE cars and also starting new lines for an expanding EV range... It's inefficient, they will all pay a price in order to survive and thrive later on.
Ignore shock horror headlines, the big players in the auto industry have been working with the worlds governments for a decade to sort out how to make this expensive and awkward transition viable.
Edited by TheDeuce on Thursday 23 March 20:24
TheDeuce said:
The problem is that Ford's heritage is that they made a mass produced car for the masses, from scratch, and thus created the mass personal transportation movement. I can't quite tie that in with them tackling the EV movement by repackaging a VW car 
I'm not really a Ford fan, but if I was, I'm certain I would buy a Ford car because it was a Ford, not a VW.
I'm sure there are boring corporate reasons for this arrangement but as car enthusiasts... I don't think there is anything here that we can expect to give a toss about in 15 years time.
Not sure what Ford's heritage brings to EV's?I'm not really a Ford fan, but if I was, I'm certain I would buy a Ford car because it was a Ford, not a VW.
I'm sure there are boring corporate reasons for this arrangement but as car enthusiasts... I don't think there is anything here that we can expect to give a toss about in 15 years time.
They have zillions of driver-miles experience of providing what Mondeo Man wanted.
They obviously know the manufacturing and design of a bodyshell/chassis and the dynamics of a car that steers/handles/brakes etc.
But their heritage counts for zilch in electric power trains. But that's fundamentally not hard to overcome.
The killer with modern cars is software.
All the driver aid BS which Ford's recent IC cars have been pissing a lot of people off with.
Apart from how comfortable the seats are, it's that kind of thing that has the biggest impact on how the driver feels about the car.
Plus the styling which looks like some savage throwback to LandRover being a Ford brand.
rodericb said:
LOL. That front overhang is the same as any ICE equipped car, SUV whatever.
You could make the overhang look even smaller by making the wheels even bigger.It's not the distance from the axle to the most forward point which makes it look a lump, it's the way there is a lot of 'front' a long way forwards and high up
OutInTheShed said:
TheDeuce said:
The problem is that Ford's heritage is that they made a mass produced car for the masses, from scratch, and thus created the mass personal transportation movement. I can't quite tie that in with them tackling the EV movement by repackaging a VW car
I'm not really a Ford fan, but if I was, I'm certain I would buy a Ford car because it was a Ford, not a VW.
I'm sure there are boring corporate reasons for this arrangement but as car enthusiasts... I don't think there is anything here that we can expect to give a toss about in 15 years time.
Not sure what Ford's heritage brings to EV's?I'm not really a Ford fan, but if I was, I'm certain I would buy a Ford car because it was a Ford, not a VW.
I'm sure there are boring corporate reasons for this arrangement but as car enthusiasts... I don't think there is anything here that we can expect to give a toss about in 15 years time.
They have zillions of driver-miles experience of providing what Mondeo Man wanted.
They obviously know the manufacturing and design of a bodyshell/chassis and the dynamics of a car that steers/handles/brakes etc.
But their heritage counts for zilch in electric power trains. But that's fundamentally not hard to overcome.
The killer with modern cars is software.
All the driver aid BS which Ford's recent IC cars have been pissing a lot of people off with.
Apart from how comfortable the seats are, it's that kind of thing that has the biggest impact on how the driver feels about the car.
Plus the styling which looks like some savage throwback to LandRover being a Ford brand.
EV is a blank piece of paper - Ford are essentially advertising to the world that they've forgotten how to draw.
TheDeuce said:
They're dead easy to drive and you can absolutely drive one on a UK license in the UK.
But don't, you'd look a proper tit with a car the size of a full sized US pickup truck when you attempt to park it, anywhere, in this country. I knew a bloke who owns part of a US firm and ended up importing a huge Chevy truck that he fell in love with - it was very impressive but totally hopeless in the UK.
As a holiday drive in the States however, the Full sized Explorer or Chevy Suburban are great if you're a family/big group - because all the parking 'lots' are designed for such lumpy beasts. In Florida one year we got 7 people and 7 suitcases in an Explorer... Think about how big that makes the car
Full size US trucks are not a problem to own in the UK unless you are the sort of person who is too incompetent and/or frightened to drive a Transit, Transporter etc. But don't, you'd look a proper tit with a car the size of a full sized US pickup truck when you attempt to park it, anywhere, in this country. I knew a bloke who owns part of a US firm and ended up importing a huge Chevy truck that he fell in love with - it was very impressive but totally hopeless in the UK.
As a holiday drive in the States however, the Full sized Explorer or Chevy Suburban are great if you're a family/big group - because all the parking 'lots' are designed for such lumpy beasts. In Florida one year we got 7 people and 7 suitcases in an Explorer... Think about how big that makes the car
Edited by benny.c on Thursday 23 March 21:04
benny.c said:
TheDeuce said:
They're dead easy to drive and you can absolutely drive one on a UK license in the UK.
But don't, you'd look a proper tit with a car the size of a full sized US pickup truck when you attempt to park it, anywhere, in this country. I knew a bloke who owns part of a US firm and ended up importing a huge Chevy truck that he fell in love with - it was very impressive but totally hopeless in the UK.
As a holiday drive in the States however, the Full sized Explorer or Chevy Suburban are great if you're a family/big group - because all the parking 'lots' are designed for such lumpy beasts. In Florida one year we got 7 people and 7 suitcases in an Explorer... Think about how big that makes the car
Full size US trucks are not a problem to own in the UK unless you are the sort of person who is too incompetent and/or frightened to drive a Transit, Transporter etc. But don't, you'd look a proper tit with a car the size of a full sized US pickup truck when you attempt to park it, anywhere, in this country. I knew a bloke who owns part of a US firm and ended up importing a huge Chevy truck that he fell in love with - it was very impressive but totally hopeless in the UK.
As a holiday drive in the States however, the Full sized Explorer or Chevy Suburban are great if you're a family/big group - because all the parking 'lots' are designed for such lumpy beasts. In Florida one year we got 7 people and 7 suitcases in an Explorer... Think about how big that makes the car
Edited by benny.c on Thursday 23 March 21:04
In the States, a car that size really can be a convenient daily. The fact I have the ability to park such a lump of car in the UK doesn't make me want to recommend one for daily use...
Not everyone lives or works in Central London and a Luton van is a metre longer than a Ram Quadcab. I’ve had Rams and GMCs as daily drivers and other than being LHD so a slight pain if you are regular toll booth/car park user, the size isn’t an issue. Not sure what it’s like elsewhere but where I live there’s been a big increase in the private use of Transporters, Vitos etc.
A single cab Ram is 600mm longer than an I-Pace. Not a direct use comparison obviously but they really aren’t that much bigger than a lot of stuff on UK roads.
A single cab Ram is 600mm longer than an I-Pace. Not a direct use comparison obviously but they really aren’t that much bigger than a lot of stuff on UK roads.
Edited by benny.c on Thursday 23 March 23:13
benny.c said:
Full size US trucks are not a problem to own in the UK unless you are the sort of person who is too incompetent and/or frightened to drive a Transit, Transporter etc.
I've driven enough vans in my life never to want to drive a van-sized vehicle if not necessary.
It might be that they work for you but that doesn't mean it's not inconvenient.
My car is nearly 2m wide without mirrors and it's a hassle in almost every parking lot in the Netherlands. 5m in length makes it too long but manageable. Anything bigger you just have to illegally park everywhere you go. If you just use your truck to go from the AA to the Domestic-Violence Rehabilitation you'll probably be fine, if you go anywhere near a city centre on a regular basis, they are a major inconvenience.
ZesPak said:
I've driven enough vans in my life never to want to drive a van-sized vehicle if not necessary.
It might be that they work for you but that doesn't mean it's not inconvenient.
My car is nearly 2m wide without mirrors and it's a hassle in almost every parking lot in the Netherlands. 5m in length makes it too long but manageable. Anything bigger you just have to illegally park everywhere you go. If you just use your truck to go from the AA to the Domestic-Violence Rehabilitation you'll probably be fine, if you go anywhere near a city centre on a regular basis, they are a major inconvenience.
Sometimes.
ZesPak said:
I've driven enough vans in my life never to want to drive a van-sized vehicle if not necessary.
It might be that they work for you but that doesn't mean it's not inconvenient.
My car is nearly 2m wide without mirrors and it's a hassle in almost every parking lot in the Netherlands. 5m in length makes it too long but manageable. Anything bigger you just have to illegally park everywhere you go. If you just use your truck to go from the AA to the Domestic-Violence Rehabilitation you'll probably be fine, if you go anywhere near a city centre on a regular basis, they are a major inconvenience.
My Jeep is only about 100mm shorter and narrower than your Tesla but I can’t recall any issues parking when we’ve been on holiday in NL.
Not sure what your AA and domestic violence reference relates to - you’ll have to explain it sorry.
Edited by benny.c on Thursday 23 March 23:55
Lil_Red_GTV said:
The angle that shot is taken at doesn't show the forward protuberance of the section between the headlights. Granted it's not huge bit it's certainly hidden. Anyway, having an internal combustion engine doesn't mean a car can't have short frontal overhang.
Ford Bronco
Do I even need to mention the Willys Jeep? Yeah, lets....
Mitsubishi i-Car:
Just kidding with the Mitsubish - they're mid-engined. The engine is just in front of the rear axle. Anyway, with all those maufacturers embracing short overhangs on their EV's:
Oh whoops, that was the Panamera. Here's the Taycan:
Maybe my eyesight is going - it looks like the Taycan has more overhang at the front than the Panamera.....
SydneyBridge said:
A capri is rumoured shortly
A Model T is rumoured soon, too.Not a joke. A really cheap EV for the masses. Apparently, they're considering using the Model T moniker to reflect the revolution and mass adoption of the original. The only thing that's holding them back is the similarity of the name to Tesla. That and the $3bn loss they've just reported on their current EV models. Do perhaps something revolutionary is needed.
However, a Capri or a Model T is not compatible their new strategy of focusing on non-passenger vehicles due to their higher profit margins.
rodericb said:
Lil_Red_GTV said:
The angle that shot is taken at doesn't show the forward protuberance of the section between the headlights. Granted it's not huge bit it's certainly hidden. Anyway, having an internal combustion engine doesn't mean a car can't have short frontal overhang.Ford Bronco
Do I even need to mention the Willys Jeep? Yeah, lets....
Mitsubishi i-Car:
Just kidding with the Mitsubish - they're mid-engined. The engine is just in front of the rear axle. Anyway, with all those maufacturers embracing short overhangs on their EV's:
Oh whoops, that was the Panamera. Here's the Taycan:
Maybe my eyesight is going - it looks like the Taycan has more overhang at the front than the Panamera.....
The Explorer clearly has a relatively short front overhang. Compare another recent Ford SUV, the Edge, and you will see what I mean about the sort of ungainly proportions modern ICE cars often have, with a relatively short wheelbase and a long front overhang.
It's possible that that was a completely free design choice, but I'll wager that the car ended up looking like that because of significant packaging and regulatory constraints that the design team had to work with, principally the need to accommodate an engine and pedestrian impact mitigation. Some ICE are better than others, of course, but in general all recent ICE have suffered with this to some degree. I'm hopeful that with EVs we may see nicer proportions return to cars, but time will tell. It has been a pretty mixed bag so far.
rodericb said:
Oh whoops, that was the Panamera. Here's the Taycan:
Maybe my eyesight is going - it looks like the Taycan has more overhang at the front than the Panamera.....
Two of the best selling EV's are good examples.Maybe my eyesight is going - it looks like the Taycan has more overhang at the front than the Panamera.....
My friend noticed (because of his driveway breakover) that the Model 3's wheelbase is nearly as long as the XF, while the XF is 30cm longer.
Also the ID3's wheelbase is 15cm up from the Golf, while being a bit shorter overall.
I don't know if that's a good thing or not, they're making the car platform bigger and then hiding it, so you get all the handling compromises of a big car in a smaller car, then the extra weight on top too. Looking at the styling, the driver is sat in the same position relative to the front of the car, so that bigger platform isn't translating into more internal space either.
I'm a little sceptical about the 2007 crash regs as small cars manage to meet those regs with tiny front over-hangs and very little distance from the engine block to the outside world. My Skoda Citigo's engine could be moved 6" further back if the regs required it, there's a huge gap between engine and bulkhead, with the engine position essentially dictated by where the gearbox puts the driveshafts. So I'm not convinced front over-hangs are there to give distance to the hard-points, unless it's a cost argument.
I think it's just a drift in the styling fashion as they need to convince us that the compromises needed to package the battery aren't' making the cars look terrible. There's another issue here in that styling everything like a small car makes it look quite good in the pictures, compact purposeful etc - Honda, that Kia thing etc - then you see them in real-life and realise they're f
king massive.
I'm a little sceptical about the 2007 crash regs as small cars manage to meet those regs with tiny front over-hangs and very little distance from the engine block to the outside world. My Skoda Citigo's engine could be moved 6" further back if the regs required it, there's a huge gap between engine and bulkhead, with the engine position essentially dictated by where the gearbox puts the driveshafts. So I'm not convinced front over-hangs are there to give distance to the hard-points, unless it's a cost argument.
I think it's just a drift in the styling fashion as they need to convince us that the compromises needed to package the battery aren't' making the cars look terrible. There's another issue here in that styling everything like a small car makes it look quite good in the pictures, compact purposeful etc - Honda, that Kia thing etc - then you see them in real-life and realise they're f
king massive.You see it in cars like the Mini, which after about 2007/09 developed pronounced snouts which I can only assume were to meet impact regs, as I can't see any designer in their right mind saying "I know how to improve this generation of Mini, let's make the nose a lot longer"). Compare the original R50 BMW Mini with an F56 BMW Mini, for example.
There are undoubtedly packaging challenges with EVs too, mainly it seems the height caused by the batteries being in the floor. The huge wheel sizes appearing on many EVs (Explorer is 19 to 21 inch) is partly fashion but presumably also to help disguise the height, and a lot of the designs so far are quasi-SUVs, which again makes height less of an issue. They do seem to have better interior space, though, and potentially better handling if the weight is in the floor rather than up front.
I just want cars that are actually good looking or at least handsome. The Explorer is a decent effort (much better than the ID4 on which it is based IMO) but the Hyundai Ioniq 5 is probably the best effort yet, to my eyes. I'm hopeful they can execute the Renault 5 EV properly. I like retro stuff though and everyone's tastes are different.
There are undoubtedly packaging challenges with EVs too, mainly it seems the height caused by the batteries being in the floor. The huge wheel sizes appearing on many EVs (Explorer is 19 to 21 inch) is partly fashion but presumably also to help disguise the height, and a lot of the designs so far are quasi-SUVs, which again makes height less of an issue. They do seem to have better interior space, though, and potentially better handling if the weight is in the floor rather than up front.
I just want cars that are actually good looking or at least handsome. The Explorer is a decent effort (much better than the ID4 on which it is based IMO) but the Hyundai Ioniq 5 is probably the best effort yet, to my eyes. I'm hopeful they can execute the Renault 5 EV properly. I like retro stuff though and everyone's tastes are different.
Lil_Red_GTV said:
You have referenced a US market only Bronco, a 1940s Jeep, and a mid-engined car, none of which are affected by post-2007 EU pedestrian impact regs. I'll grant you that the Taycan has a similar front overhang to the Panamera: I did not say that all EVs have minimal front overhangs, just that fewer packaging constraints seems to enable designers to avoid them, if they choose to do so. Hence we are seeing more EVs with the wheels pushed out closer to the corners.
The Explorer clearly has a relatively short front overhang. Compare another recent Ford SUV, the Edge, and you will see what I mean about the sort of ungainly proportions modern ICE cars often have, with a relatively short wheelbase and a long front overhang.
It's possible that that was a completely free design choice, but I'll wager that the car ended up looking like that because of significant packaging and regulatory constraints that the design team had to work with, principally the need to accommodate an engine and pedestrian impact mitigation. Some ICE are better than others, of course, but in general all recent ICE have suffered with this to some degree. I'm hopeful that with EVs we may see nicer proportions return to cars, but time will tell. It has been a pretty mixed bag so far.
I'm pulling your chain a bit. I threw those ones in as they're examples of where styling demands low front overhang and they get it - provided there's no silly legacy engineering to get in the way (i.e. Audis longitudinal engine from the 70's and 80's). I've read the odd article about some EV with the writer spaffing over the skateboard architecture liberating designers so they can push the wheels out to the corners but it's complete wThe Explorer clearly has a relatively short front overhang. Compare another recent Ford SUV, the Edge, and you will see what I mean about the sort of ungainly proportions modern ICE cars often have, with a relatively short wheelbase and a long front overhang.
It's possible that that was a completely free design choice, but I'll wager that the car ended up looking like that because of significant packaging and regulatory constraints that the design team had to work with, principally the need to accommodate an engine and pedestrian impact mitigation. Some ICE are better than others, of course, but in general all recent ICE have suffered with this to some degree. I'm hopeful that with EVs we may see nicer proportions return to cars, but time will tell. It has been a pretty mixed bag so far.
k. If a manufacturer wants to make a car with an internal combustion engine and with smaller overhangs they've always been able to. The skateboard design will place restrictions on design in its own right - such as there wouldn't be the room for all the batteries in a Honda E if it was to have a 400 mile range.rodericb said:
The skateboard design will place restrictions on design in its own right - such as there wouldn't be the room for all the batteries in a Honda E if it was to have a 400 mile range.
odd thing to say. It doesn't have space for a V8 and a massive petrol tank either.The skateboard design offers possibilities, but the entire industry has just gotten started. Hell, most brands still have huge front grills on their EVs.
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