How will the end of ICE availability affect buyer attitudes?
Discussion
Len Clifton said:
If that family were that concerned about running costs, they probably wouldn't choose to run a 16 yr old 2.8v6 Turbo... They could drop down to something like a 2.0 TSi Superb and tax would be half that Saab as well as being a few years younger:http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/2025031300...
TheDeuce said:
Len Clifton said:
survivalist said:
Len Clifton said:
TheDeuce said:
The emissions fines (ULEZ etc) are for all cars that produce emissions, so that's not a wealth level thing. Obviusly it is the case that motoring in general is getting more expensive... But that's why buses are provided.
I guess the real upset is from those that used to have no problem affording personal transport, but now find it a stretch they may not be able to maintain. That's not really the fault of EV introduction though. It's also the case the relative affordability of things does change, it always has. We can each afford only what we can afford and we shouldn't feel so entitled as to expect that to never change.
Difference is, all cars used to be taxed at the same rate. £60 for 6m or £120 per year if I remember correctly. Now, anything with a 2.0 petrol engine made after 2006 will cost its owner almost £800/year. Meanwhile, only reason EV drivers can afford to drive new cars is salary sacrifice, lower VED, and cheap energy tariffs. It’s discrimination against poor people for the benefit of people who work in offices and have off street parking. The answer cannot be that they catch the bus, especially when we need every working age person in work and able to get there.I guess the real upset is from those that used to have no problem affording personal transport, but now find it a stretch they may not be able to maintain. That's not really the fault of EV introduction though. It's also the case the relative affordability of things does change, it always has. We can each afford only what we can afford and we shouldn't feel so entitled as to expect that to never change.
Level the playing field for EVs vs ICEs and see how many people choose electric.
Edited by Len Clifton on Saturday 15th March 13:58
That’s obviously only the ones for sale.
Highest band for older cars is currently £735, but I’d suggest that anyone buying an older car with a 5L V8 bought it knowing that it wouldn’t be a cheap ownership proposition.
If anything, they’ll have to increase taxes on all the EV owners as the market share grows to offset the loss of fuel duty.
Pretty much any family petrol or diesel car is being priced off the road
It might still cost a little more per month but they get a far newer and safer car for the family to enjoy and also are giving less cancer to the other families they drive past.
If that change can be encouraged via tax, why should it not be? If anyone really can't afford it then that's sad, but why would anyone expect to forever be able to afford something? The price of things does change.
Len Clifton said:
Meanwhile, only reason EV drivers can afford to drive new cars is salary sacrifice, lower VED, and cheap energy tariffs. It’s discrimination against poor people for the benefit of people who work in offices and have off street parking. The answer cannot be that they catch the bus, especially when we need every working age person in work and able to get there.
I’ve quoted my previous response to this. I can see EV fan boys don’t want to listen, so I’ll leave it there.
Len Clifton said:
TheDeuce said:
Len Clifton said:
survivalist said:
Len Clifton said:
TheDeuce said:
The emissions fines (ULEZ etc) are for all cars that produce emissions, so that's not a wealth level thing. Obviusly it is the case that motoring in general is getting more expensive... But that's why buses are provided.
I guess the real upset is from those that used to have no problem affording personal transport, but now find it a stretch they may not be able to maintain. That's not really the fault of EV introduction though. It's also the case the relative affordability of things does change, it always has. We can each afford only what we can afford and we shouldn't feel so entitled as to expect that to never change.
Difference is, all cars used to be taxed at the same rate. £60 for 6m or £120 per year if I remember correctly. Now, anything with a 2.0 petrol engine made after 2006 will cost its owner almost £800/year. Meanwhile, only reason EV drivers can afford to drive new cars is salary sacrifice, lower VED, and cheap energy tariffs. It’s discrimination against poor people for the benefit of people who work in offices and have off street parking. The answer cannot be that they catch the bus, especially when we need every working age person in work and able to get there.I guess the real upset is from those that used to have no problem affording personal transport, but now find it a stretch they may not be able to maintain. That's not really the fault of EV introduction though. It's also the case the relative affordability of things does change, it always has. We can each afford only what we can afford and we shouldn't feel so entitled as to expect that to never change.
Level the playing field for EVs vs ICEs and see how many people choose electric.
Edited by Len Clifton on Saturday 15th March 13:58
That’s obviously only the ones for sale.
Highest band for older cars is currently £735, but I’d suggest that anyone buying an older car with a 5L V8 bought it knowing that it wouldn’t be a cheap ownership proposition.
If anything, they’ll have to increase taxes on all the EV owners as the market share grows to offset the loss of fuel duty.
Pretty much any family petrol or diesel car is being priced off the road
It might still cost a little more per month but they get a far newer and safer car for the family to enjoy and also are giving less cancer to the other families they drive past.
If that change can be encouraged via tax, why should it not be? If anyone really can't afford it then that's sad, but why would anyone expect to forever be able to afford something? The price of things does change.
Len Clifton said:
Meanwhile, only reason EV drivers can afford to drive new cars is salary sacrifice, lower VED, and cheap energy tariffs. It’s discrimination against poor people for the benefit of people who work in offices and have off street parking. The answer cannot be that they catch the bus, especially when we need every working age person in work and able to get there.
I’ve quoted my previous response to this. I can see EV fan boys don’t want to listen, so I’ll leave it there.As for salary sacrifice, that has nothing to do with the example I gave. An EV can be bought used for affordable monthlies which will be largely covered by the fuel savings - in many cases probably entirely covered.
Len Clifton said:
survivalist said:
Len Clifton said:
TheDeuce said:
The emissions fines (ULEZ etc) are for all cars that produce emissions, so that's not a wealth level thing. Obviusly it is the case that motoring in general is getting more expensive... But that's why buses are provided.
I guess the real upset is from those that used to have no problem affording personal transport, but now find it a stretch they may not be able to maintain. That's not really the fault of EV introduction though. It's also the case the relative affordability of things does change, it always has. We can each afford only what we can afford and we shouldn't feel so entitled as to expect that to never change.
Difference is, all cars used to be taxed at the same rate. £60 for 6m or £120 per year if I remember correctly. Now, anything with a 2.0 petrol engine made after 2006 will cost its owner almost £800/year. Meanwhile, only reason EV drivers can afford to drive new cars is salary sacrifice, lower VED, and cheap energy tariffs. It’s discrimination against poor people for the benefit of people who work in offices and have off street parking. The answer cannot be that they catch the bus, especially when we need every working age person in work and able to get there.I guess the real upset is from those that used to have no problem affording personal transport, but now find it a stretch they may not be able to maintain. That's not really the fault of EV introduction though. It's also the case the relative affordability of things does change, it always has. We can each afford only what we can afford and we shouldn't feel so entitled as to expect that to never change.
Level the playing field for EVs vs ICEs and see how many people choose electric.
Edited by Len Clifton on Saturday 15th March 13:58
That’s obviously only the ones for sale.
Highest band for older cars is currently £735, but I’d suggest that anyone buying an older car with a 5L V8 bought it knowing that it wouldn’t be a cheap ownership proposition.
If anything, they’ll have to increase taxes on all the EV owners as the market share grows to offset the loss of fuel duty.
Pretty much any family petrol or diesel car is being priced off the road
There are fewer than 6000 5 seater cars with VED of £400+
I’d suggest that if running costs are important to you, it’s it hard to find a car with a low VED cost. That’s an old car with a big engine. Never has been, as even if VED was free, the fuel costs are likely to be significant.
Edited by survivalist on Saturday 15th March 16:44
Len Clifton said:
I’ve quoted my previous response to this. I can see EV fan boys don’t want to listen, so I’ll leave it there.
It seems you're the one who doesnt want to listen. You made some sweeping statements and dont want to be corrected.For the record, i've a 3.0i v6 twin turbo'd petrol car, wife has a turbo'd 2.0i convertible.
Not yet ready to make the move to EVs though i can see how they can work for many people - and how very soon, given range increases and infra expansion, they will work for many more.
Being very honest, i could easily make an EV work right now, as could most, if not all, of my family circle. Its just a matter of time....
QBee said:
I have lived for 45 of the last 50 years in the countryside in the UK, but never more than 5 miles from a town for 43 of those years. I have needed a car to travel 20,000 business miles a year for most of that time. I currently live 3 miles from my local town, work from home, but with fields all around me. No bus service, no shops in my local village. My life is made far more convenient by having a car. When I am totally crocked I will have everything delivered, including dentists, opticians and doctors. 
In the mean time, here’s the view.
Very similar here. In the mean time, here’s the view.
We could make an EV work no problem, if we chose to.
The other advantage for anyone living somewhere rural is that they've almost certainly got the off road space to charge from home.
Deep Thought said:
Len Clifton said:
You said "anything with a 2.0 litre engine" is being taxed at £800 a year?Thats a 2.8 v6 turbo?
I cant really see too many families living on the poverty line running 2.8 turbo'd SAABs.
But as we know, it's easy to put several hundred a month in fuel into such a car, which means it could be replaced by a used EV for the same ££ a month overall.
If the family in question only does limited mileage and therefore don't spend much on fuel, the car can be replaced by a bus.
Or as you point out, simply a far more economical petrol car...
TheDeuce said:
I think old, cheap 'but well rapid, bruv' cars like that are quite often run by people on the poverty line actually, which suggests their priorities might not be fully in order!
But as we know, it's easy to put several hundred a month in fuel into such a car, which means it could be replaced by a used EV for the same ££ a month overall.
If the family in question only does limited mileage and therefore don't spend much on fuel, the car can be replaced by a bus.
Or as you point out, simply a far more economical petrol car...
Dont get me wrong - i'm all for older performance quirky stuff like that. They can be great buys.But as we know, it's easy to put several hundred a month in fuel into such a car, which means it could be replaced by a used EV for the same ££ a month overall.
If the family in question only does limited mileage and therefore don't spend much on fuel, the car can be replaced by a bus.
Or as you point out, simply a far more economical petrol car...
It was the "all 2006+ 2.0 litre cars are now £800 a year to tax" i was questioning.
But yes, generally speaking if someone is one the bread line but needs a car to get to work, they'd be looking for some 1.4 petrol or a diesel car, rather than a fire breathing 2.8 turbo.
I dont think those looking to spend just a few £K really need to be considering a EV at this point - or any time soon.
I've a 2014 Golf 1.6 TDI that is currently £0 road tax (rising to a heady £20 from April!) and can do 60+mpg on a run. Lots of stuff like that for people who are running a car on a budget.
Deep Thought said:
TheDeuce said:
I think old, cheap 'but well rapid, bruv' cars like that are quite often run by people on the poverty line actually, which suggests their priorities might not be fully in order!
But as we know, it's easy to put several hundred a month in fuel into such a car, which means it could be replaced by a used EV for the same ££ a month overall.
If the family in question only does limited mileage and therefore don't spend much on fuel, the car can be replaced by a bus.
Or as you point out, simply a far more economical petrol car...
Dont get me wrong - i'm all for older performance quirky stuff like that. They can be great buys.But as we know, it's easy to put several hundred a month in fuel into such a car, which means it could be replaced by a used EV for the same ££ a month overall.
If the family in question only does limited mileage and therefore don't spend much on fuel, the car can be replaced by a bus.
Or as you point out, simply a far more economical petrol car...
It was the "all 2006+ 2.0 litre cars are now £800 a year to tax" i was questioning.
But yes, generally speaking if someone is one the bread line but needs a car to get to work, they'd be looking for some 1.4 petrol or a diesel car, rather than a fire breathing 2.8 turbo.
I dont think those looking to spend just a few £K really need to be considering a EV at this point - or any time soon.
I've a 2014 Golf 1.6 TDI that is currently £0 road tax (rising to a heady £20 from April!) and can do 60+mpg on a run. Lots of stuff like that for people who are running a car on a budget.
otolith said:
Len Clifton said:
Won’t be many years before the people running fast old sheds can afford an old Tesla which will make that Saab look ridiculous. 
But many people running an old 'used be posh' motor think that all EV's are hopelessly expensive and that they'll never last long enough to become cheap because the daily mail said so.
Mahalo said:
King Gary seems to have stopped posting on 8th February (banned?). Len Clifton registered on 11th February and has posted phrases about EVs that are uncannily similar to the phrases KingGary used.
Stop it!!!That would mean Gary has literally nothing in life other than forcing himself on people that think he's a pillock.
I always pictured him as a man that lives alone, has a sparsely furnished home with a games console and overly large pair of speakers in the lounge. The bedding gets changed once every few months (if it needs it) and drives the sort of car that is 'legendary' amongst other people that have also failed at life. To be fair I only think that because that was my life, when I was 20 and had my first proper house of my own
Thank god he was banned, I'd hate to say anything like that if he was still around!
Why was he banned? Because he doesn’t like EVs? That would be a bit of a strange move for “piston” heads.
Anyhow, will the end of ICE availability affect buyer attitudes?
Firstly, let’s see about the end of ICE availability.
Secondly, if I were an EV fanatic I think I would wish for EVs to become the go to car because they are a better choice, not because there is no choice.
Thirdly, speaking for myself and just having added another V8 to the stable, I can’t say I’m thinking much about EVs tbh. Hopefully the I-Pace keeps trucking as it does what it does well and no reason why it won’t if things continue as they are. A major barrier to car buying for me are the ultra annoying hard to switch off driver aids. Another “driver” is that we are basically done with family cars which doesn’t exactly lead one to dream of EVs.
So in summary, no there is nothing in our household that is pointing towards more EV buying and from what I can tell there is plenty of ICE available and will continue to be the case. I’m not even sure it matters as the good stuff is in the past anyhow which is strongly reflected by lack of depreciation.
Anyhow, will the end of ICE availability affect buyer attitudes?
Firstly, let’s see about the end of ICE availability.
Secondly, if I were an EV fanatic I think I would wish for EVs to become the go to car because they are a better choice, not because there is no choice.
Thirdly, speaking for myself and just having added another V8 to the stable, I can’t say I’m thinking much about EVs tbh. Hopefully the I-Pace keeps trucking as it does what it does well and no reason why it won’t if things continue as they are. A major barrier to car buying for me are the ultra annoying hard to switch off driver aids. Another “driver” is that we are basically done with family cars which doesn’t exactly lead one to dream of EVs.
So in summary, no there is nothing in our household that is pointing towards more EV buying and from what I can tell there is plenty of ICE available and will continue to be the case. I’m not even sure it matters as the good stuff is in the past anyhow which is strongly reflected by lack of depreciation.
DMZ said:
Why was he banned? Because he doesn’t like EVs? That would be a bit of a strange move for “piston” heads.
Anyhow, will the end of ICE availability affect buyer attitudes?
Firstly, let’s see about the end of ICE availability.
Secondly, if I were an EV fanatic I think I would wish for EVs to become the go to car because they are a better choice, not because there is no choice.
Thirdly, speaking for myself and just having added another V8 to the stable, I can’t say I’m thinking much about EVs tbh. Hopefully the I-Pace keeps trucking as it does what it does well and no reason why it won’t if things continue as they are. A major barrier to car buying for me are the ultra annoying hard to switch off driver aids. Another “driver” is that we are basically done with family cars which doesn’t exactly lead one to dream of EVs.
So in summary, no there is nothing in our household that is pointing towards more EV buying and from what I can tell there is plenty of ICE available and will continue to be the case. I’m not even sure it matters as the good stuff is in the past anyhow which is strongly reflected by lack of depreciation.
I agree. I’ve got 2 V8s already and am thinking of a third - been looking at XKRs. Had one in the late 90s and would like to try another before they disappear completely. No interest in EVs yet. Anyhow, will the end of ICE availability affect buyer attitudes?
Firstly, let’s see about the end of ICE availability.
Secondly, if I were an EV fanatic I think I would wish for EVs to become the go to car because they are a better choice, not because there is no choice.
Thirdly, speaking for myself and just having added another V8 to the stable, I can’t say I’m thinking much about EVs tbh. Hopefully the I-Pace keeps trucking as it does what it does well and no reason why it won’t if things continue as they are. A major barrier to car buying for me are the ultra annoying hard to switch off driver aids. Another “driver” is that we are basically done with family cars which doesn’t exactly lead one to dream of EVs.
So in summary, no there is nothing in our household that is pointing towards more EV buying and from what I can tell there is plenty of ICE available and will continue to be the case. I’m not even sure it matters as the good stuff is in the past anyhow which is strongly reflected by lack of depreciation.
My 1999 2.3 turbo Saab, on the other hand, curently costs £345 a year to tax, which will increase by 5% from next month.
My 2002 identical car costs the same.
It's only the 2.8 V6 and the 3 litre V6, first rgistered after March the somethingth 2006 that cost £735 a year.
An EV bought new 12 months ago with a list price of more than £40,000 will cost £620 a year to tax for the next 4 years.
The no tax for EVs argument has just gone out of the window for the majority of them - in 2022 a Cupra Born was over £40,000 list.
My 2002 identical car costs the same.
It's only the 2.8 V6 and the 3 litre V6, first rgistered after March the somethingth 2006 that cost £735 a year.
An EV bought new 12 months ago with a list price of more than £40,000 will cost £620 a year to tax for the next 4 years.
The no tax for EVs argument has just gone out of the window for the majority of them - in 2022 a Cupra Born was over £40,000 list.
QBee said:
The no tax for EVs argument has just gone out of the window for the majority of them - in 2022 a Cupra Born was over £40,000 list.
That only works if you ignore all the cheaper EVs coming out.https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/these-ar...
The top two of those aren't really cars, but there are plenty of viable cars well under 40k.
The adjustment of the 40k rule is very similar to what they did in NL 5 years ago. It's the complaint that all these tax breaks were for people buying 100k Teslas, who didn't really need a tax break.
If you really feel these couple hundred quid, I'd argue you shouldn't be looking at a new car. But if you do, should you really be looking at an expensive new car and then complain the tax is 600/year?
Edited by ZesPak on Monday 17th March 09:31
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