B-road attacking coupe in reasonable budget?

[ZackM]

Mr Tidy said:

Interesting thread!

I bought my Z4 Coupe BECAUSE of how it looked! Plus it had a straight 6 petrol N/A engine, RWD and a manual gearbox.

It can attack a B-road, but will never be a B-road weapon like an Elise, VX220, etc. - but then they don't have a 6 cylinder engine mounted in the front!

I think the OP may need to review his priorities.

Not at all. What you say about the Elise and VX220 is exactly why I don't want a middle engine for this car. They are more like precise tools on the B roads. But the front engine RWD is more fun because they will be more frisky. This is what I was talking about when I said I wasn't looking for the middle engine experience. You put it well in words. I want to attack B roads but not necessarily a B road weapon. Otherwise, like I already said I would just buy an Elise and be done.

So my priorities are right indeed for the type of experience I'm looking for.

[ZackM]

SWTH said:

Exactly this. OP, your thread title asks specifically for a “B-ROAD ATTACKING COUPE”. Therefore, it might be considered that being good on a B-road was the highest priority. If you’d asked for “Best all round coupe for £10k” you might be getting different responses, maybe more in line with your expectations.

And by the way, treating everyone like they need everything explaining syllable by syllable because they’re not all just turning around and agreeing that the Z is the best option, when all everyone is doing is trying suggest different alternatives, is a surefire way of winding people up. Ease off a bit, you’ve clearly fixed on buying the Z. Go and test one, see what YOU think of it, then IF it meets your high expectations, buy one.

Why are people focusing so much on the title only? Are they not reading the actual opening post? Isn't that like judging a book by the cover?

In the OP I explain it well I thought. But maybe I should have indeed chosen a different title. I put B road attacking there to avoid people would suggest big 2 doors saloons etc.

Now this part of your post totally throws me off:

"And by the way, treating everyone like they need everything explaining syllable by syllable because they’re not all just turning around and agreeing that the Z is the best option, when all everyone is doing is trying suggest different alternatives, is a surefire way of winding people up. Ease off a bit,"

If trying to explain well I'm still being misunderstood, I can only imagine how it would be if I wasn't trying my best to make myself clear. So I don't understand your point. Sorry.

By the way, I have not yet fixed on buying the Z. It is just looking like the best option so far. It's either that or a rebodied Z4 Coupe with reworked steering, which seems like too much work and money to do.

[ZackM]

blueg33 said:

Given the extremely restrictive brief, you are right the 350z is probably the only car that meets it! Hope you like it when you drive it.

(ps forgot the Jag was auto only)

I think the biggest restriction is the price really, rather than specs. if money was no object a V8 Vantage would also check all boxes I would think. And there are probably a few others. Yes, I know the Vantage is no B-road weapon as an Elise. But I hope we are passed that now. If I wanted the ultimate B road car I would start with middle engine I think.

But I think the biggest limitation is price. I'm sure we could come up with more options if there was no price roof. Coupe, RWD, manual, 6 cly. and up, any price. But in the real world price is always a factor.

[SWTH]

ZackM said:

As for being rude, I'm really not trying to be. Don't know why I'm coming across this way. Is it because I'm debating? I thought this was the point of forums too.

Debate is fine. Pointing out every little issue with suggestions in what reads as a very condescending manner is what is getting rather tiresome.

You’ve already said that because the Fifth Gear team like it very much then it should be fine. Independent folk (I.e those whose incomes do not depend on keeping car manufacturers happy) are saying that for your purposes you might feel a little let down, though it would be a very good car in general. Again, that title saying “B-road attacking coupe” does rather suggest that handling is right at the forefront of your needs.

It reads as though you’ve set your mind on a 350Z, and nothing else will do. Research is all well and good, but as you’ve already worked out, nothing else will satisfy your requirements because nobody else makes anything like a 350Z that is less than 10yrs old, less than £10k and still fits your definition of a coupe.

[SWTH]

ZackM said:

Why are people focusing so much on the title only? Are they not reading the actual opening post? Isn't that like judging a book by the cover?

In the OP I explain it well I thought. But maybe I should have indeed chosen a different title. I put B road attacking there to avoid people would suggest big 2 doors saloons etc.

Now this part of your post totally throws me off:

"And by the way, treating everyone like they need everything explaining syllable by syllable because they’re not all just turning around and agreeing that the Z is the best option, when all everyone is doing is trying suggest different alternatives, is a surefire way of winding people up. Ease off a bit,"

If trying to explain well I'm still being misunderstood, I can only imagine how it would be if I wasn't trying my best to make myself clear. So I don't understand your point. Sorry.

By the way, I have not yet fixed on buying the Z. It is just looking like the best option so far. It's either that or a rebodied Z4 Coupe with reworked steering, which seems like too much work and money to do.

We aren’t misunderstanding you, we’re trying to offer alternatives that because of your requirements cannot be all of what you have listed, but may still be worthy of consideration.

As for judging books by their covers, a good cover should suggest what the book is about, and lead into the story. A bad cover can easily throw people off the scent.

[ZackM]

SWTH said:

We aren’t misunderstanding you, we’re trying to offer alternatives that because of your requirements cannot be all of what you have listed, but may still be worthy of consideration.

As for judging books by their covers, a good cover should suggest what the book is about, and lead into the story. A bad cover can easily throw people off the scent.

Actually that would be the job of the preface.

A cover's job is to get you to look at the book.

Not very different than the job of an article title really.

I know you brought up that pointing out every little issue reads as condescending. But I felt I had to comment on this one as this is what I do for a living. I work in marketing and advertising.

I will definitely test the 350Z.

And I don't think The Fifth Gear crew is being corrupt and lying to please Nissan. I have seen several disfavorable reviews by Tiff.

For example, they compared the Z4 and 350Z and even though the 350Z won everything, in the end they said they would buy the Z4 themselves. Talk about badge bias.

[blueg33]

ZackM said:

SWTH said:

We aren’t misunderstanding you, we’re trying to offer alternatives that because of your requirements cannot be all of what you have listed, but may still be worthy of consideration.

As for judging books by their covers, a good cover should suggest what the book is about, and lead into the story. A bad cover can easily throw people off the scent.

Actually that would be the job of the preface.

A cover's job is to get you to look at the book.

Not very different than the job of an article title really.

I know you brought up that pointing out every little issue reads as condescending. But I felt I had to comment on this one as this is what I do for a living. I work in marketing and advertising.

I will definitely test the 350Z.

And I don't think The Fifth Gear crew is being corrupt and lying to please Nissan. I have seen several disfavorable reviews by Tiff.

For example, they compared the Z4 and 350Z and even though the 350Z won everything, in the end they said they would buy the Z4 themselves. Talk about badge bias.

A car can win in every category in a test, but sometimes its the je ne sais quoi that gives something the edge.

[Herbs]

I've read this thread a few times over the last couple of days but refrained from posting as thought the OP had made his mind up despite his post but as opinions are being asked, and i'd like to think mine is relevant, here's mine:

For a bit of context, with the exception of the coupe element (I prefer roadsters) you are looking for my favourite type of car and have owned amongst others.

3 Elises
3 Z4 3.0L's (1 E85 & 2 E89's)
2 Z4M's
1 Twin Turbo Supra
1 RX7
2 SLK
2 Aston V8 Vantages (4.3 & N400)
1 SL500
1 BMW 645
1 911 C4S

I have also driven a 350Z and Boxster on numerous occasions. The 350Z is bottom of all of those cars listed above. The engine is fine, but the car feels cheap and drives lazily. It definitely more of a GT cruiser than sports car which is fine - except that then you bring in a whole raft of cars that are better at that.

If you want a 350Z, then great, get one but do not get it on the thinking it is the best car in it's class because it isn't. Out of all the cars listed, I love the Z4M the most because it is flawed and it takes a long time to learn how to drive it properly and get confidence that it isn't going to throw you off the road which makes it the most enjoyable and rewarding car to drive. In contrast the 911 was the worst because it was so accomplished it was boring as hell and how i didn't lose my license in it I don't know.

I recommend going and test driving a 350Z and see if YOU like it because it is impossible to tell from a forum. I did not get on with the S2000 when I owned it as it did not suit my driving style but they still have a cult following and people rave about them. If you are dead set on a coupe and rule out the Z4, GT86 etc and 350Z then i would look at a Supra which has the benefit of zero depreciation these days.

[ZackM]

blueg33 said:

A car can win in every category in a test, but sometimes its the je ne sais quoi that gives something the edge.

Yes. Personal preference.

But it does show the 350z is more than o pair with a z4. The put forward notion a z4 is better or would blow a 350z out of the water is clearly not factual.

Edited by ZackM on Thursday 20th September 12:41

[SWTH]

ZackM said:

Actually that would be the job of the preface.

A cover's job is to get you to look at the book.

Not very different than the job of an article title really.

I know you brought up that pointing out every little issue reads as condescending. But I felt I had to comment on this one as this is what I do for a living. I work in marketing and advertising.

I will definitely test the 350Z.

And I don't think The Fifth Gear crew is being corrupt and lying to please Nissan. I have seen several disfavorable reviews by Tiff.

For example, they compared the Z4 and 350Z and even though the 350Z won everything, in the end they said they would buy the Z4 themselves. Talk about badge bias.

Are you quite sure the covers job is just to get you to look? A good cover also tells some of the story.

To take an example, I have a book about how during WWII Britain ran a network of double agents feeding Germany with false information. The book is called Double Cross and the cover is of a silhouetted man in an overcoat and hat superimposed over a picture of troops storming the Normandy Beaches. Just by that alone I know the book is about spies and WWII. By inference I can also guess its to do with the British SIS pulling the wool over Nazi Germany, and June 6th 1944 is probably important to the story too.

Now, that book could have been called ‘The Twenty Committee’ and had a picture of cricketers on the front. For anyone who hasn’t read the book both of these elements are actually central to the book, but also to anyone who isn’t familiar with the story of SIS in WWII completely irrelevant. Therefore had I seen such a book in the military history section of Waterstones, I’d have discounted it as being anything of interest because it had clearly been filed incorrectly. Why would a book on cricket be any interest to someone researching war history?

Anyway, enough off topic.

Whilst you have a number of criteria listed, have you taken into account how the car will make you feel? Bear in mind also that a reviewer will review a car according to his or her needs and priorities, the Fifth Gear team may not have to be favourable to Nissan but equally they may be looking at the Nissan as a GT car (which it is), not as a pure handling machine (which it isn’t). That factor alone (the feel) is probably why the Z4 won overall in their test. A car can be brilliant, tick every box in every test, but if it doesn’t give you the fizz and make you feel good, or doesn’t do it as good as another car could, then it may well disappoint in that most subjective of tests, how it makes you, not me, not any of the other posters here, not Tiff Needell, feels.

[blueg33]

ZackM said:

blueg33 said:

A car can win in every category in a test, but sometimes its the je ne sais quoi that gives something the edge.

Yes. Personal preference.

But it does show the 350z is more than o pair with a z4. The put forward notion a z4 is better or would blow a 350z out of the water is clearly not factual.

Edited by ZackM on Thursday 20th September 12:41

As has been said, it’s subjective, I wouldn’t have either.

[RobM77]

I may be able to offer some perspective, as I've owned a Z4 Coupé and an Elise. They overlapped by a year, so I've often driven both in one day.

I owned a 2003 Elise S2 111S from 4k miles and a year old until it was about 8 or 9 years old. The Elise is, for me, the nicest road car that I've ever driven for twisty roads. A bit of a pain on the motorway and dual carriageways compared to more comfortable options, but on a twisty road, they're fantastic. The steering feel is utterly sublime, the damping spot on, and the feedback full of detail and in perfect stereo (unlike many FE/RWD cars where you sit very close to the rear). The driving position as standard is a bit dodgy (legs bent double, arms out-stretched), but a spacer in the steering wheel solves that problem.

I owned my 2007 Z4 Coupé for 18 months and bought it at a year old with 10k on the clock. The Z4 Coupé, on paper, is my ideal car. A large boot, n/a straight six, good driving position, quiet enough for long trips but enough sound to enjoy back roads, quite lightweight, extremely stiff. It is a bit of a rough diamond though. The steering is what you notice first; there really is almost no feel at all. I did get used to driving it without feedback after a few days, but it was always missed. If you ever need very quick opposite lock, the rack can't keep up its assistance, which is a bit odd. Secondly, the throttle... there's a small delay at the top, which whilst not being a deal breaker, did ultimately piss me off. There's also not enough sensitivity on the throttle to heel and toe, which is odd, but if you press the 'sport' button the throttle becomes non linear, with the top 10% doing about 40-50% of the work, which is great for H&T but very odd when driving normally. Finally, the ride with the 19" wheels that I had was very jiggly - the car never settled. It either made you feel involved in the drive or irritated - mostly the former for me, but I did notice driving other BMWs with more sensible wheel size.

I've driven most of the other cars being discussed here. The 350Z I found a very big and heavy car with heavy lifeless steering, with a nasty throttle lag that featured a step function pickup (most cars ramp up to the value you request after the delay, whereas the 350Z jumped). The interior was also quite plasticky. The handling and engine were lovely though. The chassis platform shares with a massive SUV, which may be responsible for all that weight.

[coldel]

350z was built a GT car not a B roader, that said it doesn't mean its not great fun on a B road. A remap with some basic aftermarket work (plenum, exhaust, sports cats lightened flywheel + coilovers) will give you a strong engine, great noise, free revving with good handling. You will not fail to have fun on the B roads and having driven a number of cars in 350z convoys from a Celica GT4 to a VX220 everyone is having fun. Just dont get too hung up on people looking at specs on wikipedia about weight etc. just go drive one, it can be heavier than others but still chuckable and fun.

[RobM77]

coldel said:

350z was built a GT car not a B roader, that said it doesn't mean its not great fun on a B road. A remap with some basic aftermarket work (plenum, exhaust, sports cats lightened flywheel + coilovers) will give you a strong engine, great noise, free revving with good handling. You will not fail to have fun on the B roads and having driven a number of cars in 350z convoys from a Celica GT4 to a VX220 everyone is having fun. Just dont get too hung up on people looking at specs on wikipedia about weight etc. just go drive one, it can be heavier than others but still chuckable and fun.

My observations on the 350Z were purely on feel from driving one - I really felt the weight of the thing. Yes, I agree entirely; it's a GT. I did find that the Z4 Coupé did the GT thing whilst feeling dainty on its feet at the same time. One thing I forgot to mention was that if you really pushed the Z4C in the dry you got some quite heavy understeer. I didn't push the 350Z that far, but it didn't feel like it was going to do that. In the wet it was another matter entirely, with very neutral handling, so I suspect the understeer at those higher loadings in the dry was a geo issue.

[ZackM]

Thanks for the replies RobM77 and coldel. And here I thought the thread was basically over and you two come in late and add so much to it.

About the Z4 vs 350Z, as expected neither is perfect. But based on what you said about the Z4 and 350Z RobM77, I must say I think I can more easily live with the 350Z faults than with the Z4's. Also because the 350Z is such a great platform to build. So I have the impression it will be way easier and cheaper to address the faults with the 350Z than with the Z4.

And coldel, thanks for the great tips for improving the 350Z. It's good to hear it can still be chuckable and fun even with the weight. Since you compliment the handling RobM77, I guess you are not entirely disagreeing with coldel. I have driven heavier GTs before which were still fun. I was never expecting Elise driving experience.

By the way, have any of you also driven the 370Z and can compare? On paper it doesn't look that much better if any. Not particularly more powerful or particularly much lighter. Neither it's particularly better looking. Would be interesting to read your thoughts if you have driven one. Here they cost almost double of a 350Z. Thanks again.

[coldel]

Not much between an HR 350z and a 370z. Interior is improved, the car feels a bit newer and refined, but if you want something to chuck about on the weekend an HR (later 350z) is what you should go for and save the money. Unless of course you like the styling more of the 370z. Do check for oil gallery gaskets though on the HR upwards, common problem that will cost north of £800 to fix if it goes wrong.

[RobM77]

ZackM said:

Thanks for the replies RobM77 and coldel. And here I thought the thread was basically over and you two come in late and add so much to it.

About the Z4 vs 350Z, as expected neither is perfect. But based on what you said about the Z4 and 350Z RobM77, I must say I think I can more easily live with the 350Z faults than with the Z4's. Also because the 350Z is such a great platform to build. So I have the impression it will be way easier and cheaper to address the faults with the 350Z than with the Z4.

And coldel, thanks for the great tips for improving the 350Z. It's good to hear it can still be chuckable and fun even with the weight. Since you compliment the handling RobM77, I guess you are not entirely disagreeing with coldel. I have driven heavier GTs before which were still fun. I was never expecting Elise driving experience.

By the way, have any of you also driven the 370Z and can compare? On paper it doesn't look that much better if any. Not particularly more powerful or particularly much lighter. Neither it's particularly better looking. Would be interesting to read your thoughts if you have driven one. Here they cost almost double of a 350Z. Thanks again.

That's exactly it. Both are great cars, but with obvious flaws. For me, agility and control response are my top two things in a car, and I was never going to change the 350Z's clumsy throttle, leaden steering and big kerbweight. If you can forgive it of those things, there's not really anything else wrong.

[coldel]

RobM77 said:

That's exactly it. Both are great cars, but with obvious flaws. For me, agility and control response are my top two things in a car, and I was never going to change the 350Z's clumsy throttle, leaden steering and big kerbweight. If you can forgive it of those things, there's not really anything else wrong.

You can fix the throttle with a few mods i.e. Uprev mapping or similar which is circa £350 for an install. Steering is unfortunately what it is as it is a GT car. kerb weight can be addressed, a chap pulled all the sound deadening out of the boot on his car and around the rear arches and knocked something like 40kgs off. With a few mods you can get a pretty well set up car - obviously tyres and geo make all the difference so don't scrimp on those.

[RobM77]

coldel said:

RobM77 said:

That's exactly it. Both are great cars, but with obvious flaws. For me, agility and control response are my top two things in a car, and I was never going to change the 350Z's clumsy throttle, leaden steering and big kerbweight. If you can forgive it of those things, there's not really anything else wrong.

You can fix the throttle with a few mods i.e. Uprev mapping or similar which is circa £350 for an install. Steering is unfortunately what it is as it is a GT car. kerb weight can be addressed, a chap pulled all the sound deadening out of the boot on his car and around the rear arches and knocked something like 40kgs off. With a few mods you can get a pretty well set up car - obviously tyres and geo make all the difference so don't scrimp on those.

I can't speak for the Nissan, but I wasted a lot of time and money on my E46 330ci throttle lag and nothing ever fixed it. I'm not denying what you're saying, but just wanted to log that for future readers.

[coldel]

RobM77 said:

I can't speak for the Nissan, but I wasted a lot of time and money on my E46 330ci throttle lag and nothing ever fixed it. I'm not denying what you're saying, but just wanted to log that for future readers.

Its no problem on the Zed I did it on mine, the timing of the throttle is pulled back on the first few gears on the default ECU, so putting in 50% of the pedal does not return 50% of throttle. Its just to make driving smoother. You can dial this out with the uprev/ecutek at one of the tuners around the country who can put in any map you want really. Add a lightened flywheel and you will feel a much more free revving car. Problem solved.