NHS lease scheme

[pavarotti1980]

garpat32 said:

Have you's actually looked at the "deal"?

Seems to be a lot of people here "know" what is a good deal or not, but do not actually have a clue what they are on about. It's like reading the Sun headlines man

You best explain it for everyone. Just so we "know" what is a good deal

[GT72]

gangzoom said:

GT72 said:

My wife’s quote on the Tesla Model 3 Performance was £382pcm for 10,000 miles per year over 24 months.

The impact on her gross salary is a deduction of £7,577 per annum.

As per Mustache’s calculation that’s a reduction of £140 per annum to her annual pension, based upon 1/54. Therefore a reduction of £280 per annum to her pensionable salary for having the car for 2 years. So assuming she takes the pension for 20 years, that’s a reduction of £5,600 in total over a 20 year period.

Your figures don't match what calculators on a NHS trust are showing. A £7,577 per annum is £631/month gross deduction, presuming she as 20 years left to retirement the amount lost is £247/year, so a 2 year deal over 20 years will reduce the pension by £9800.

https://www.benefitseveryone.co.uk/salary-sacrific...

You are right that £631/month gross is cheap for a P Model 3, Tusker which supplies our Trust is showing a P Model 3 at £1000/month gross reduction.

For me a NHS rental P Model 3 at £1000/month gross and 28 years to retirement over 3 years will reduce my pension worth by £25K, in addition to paying around £500/month out of pocket now, making the total cost of a 3 year 'cheap' NHS rental deal £45K - It hard to imagine a more costly way to get into a P Model 3 for 3 years!

Edited by gangzoom on Monday 27th January 20:13

The pension calculator is incorporating The Consumer Price Index and growing the contributions in line with it. So the number it's chucking out is the value of a pound in 48 years time incorporating growth. So you're trying to compare a cost today with a value in 48 years. Everything in 48 years time will be considerably more expensive than it is today, that's inflation.

It's like trying to out work which is the cheapest to buy today - a 2020 Mars bar at 69p or a 2068 Snickers at £2.85. To compare costs you have to compare at a single point in time, whether that's the value of a pound today or the value of a pound in the future. The reality is the Mars and Snickers cost the same today and in theory should cost the same in 2068.

I've now had the paperwork through confirming the pension shortfall at £58.72 per month for the Model 3 Performance, add that to the £382.38pm lease cost and the total cost of the car over 2 years is £441.10 - which guarantees no pension shortfall, assuming you do something with the £58.72 such as create an AVC alongside the pension. That's a total cost of £10,586.40 in today's money or £43,745.67 in 48 years time, with zero impact on pension.

[zoolando]

garpat32 said:

Have you's actually looked at the "deal"?

Seems to be a lot of people here "know" what is a good deal or not, but do not actually have a clue what they are on about. It's like reading the Sun headlines man

Using the NHS Fleet Solutions website alone it is difficult to workout whether an employee is getting a good deal or not due to pension implications. With significant initial cost of electric cars such as Tesla, e-tron etc the impact on pension is greater.

Certainly the people I have talked to who have taken out multiple Fleet deals do not fully understand impact on pension or appear not to have mitigated the impact. I guess everyone is free to make their own choices however this isn't a straight forward calculation for the average consumer therefore risk of mis-selling?

It would not be too hard for the Fleet to develop a calculator to show estimated shortfall on long term pension pot however appreciate they are a business so may feel this puts people off getting a 'good deal' on the latest car?

[pavarotti1980]

zoolando said:

Using the NHS Fleet Solutions website alone it is difficult to workout whether an employee is getting a good deal or not due to pension implications. With significant initial cost of electric cars such as Tesla, e-tron etc the impact on pension is greater.

Certainly the people I have talked to who have taken out multiple Fleet deals do not fully understand impact on pension or appear not to have mitigated the impact. I guess everyone is free to make their own choices however this isn't a straight forward calculation for the average consumer therefore risk of mis-selling?

It would not be too hard for the Fleet to develop a calculator to show estimated shortfall on long term pension pot however appreciate they are a business so may feel this puts people off getting a 'good deal' on the latest car?

I dont think there is even a calculator to work out what your potential pension will be never mind the implications of reduced contributions.

Happy to be corrected but there is very little on ESR to help

[garpat32]

Ok, here's a real world example.

This is from when I had a GTE on salary sacrifice back in October 2015. I've checked payslip and the previous one before I had the car shows roughly that I paid £28 less pension per month until I hit the spine point the following April, I then paid £20 less for that full year.

Note the mileage allowance showing .56 p per mile also. Lol

[sawman]

pavarotti1980 said:

I dont think there is even a calculator to work out what your potential pension will be never mind the implications of reduced contributions.

Happy to be corrected but there is very little on ESR to help

You are right, the only info that you can really get about pension is the annual TRS statement, but you cant use this to model changes, i suppose you could see how the forecast changes after you have had a lease car for a bit, bit late by then i guess!.
I am no longer contributing to the pension so this aspect doesn't apply to me, thanks to this thread i am now thinking about spending a couple of years with an electric audi!

[pavarotti1980]

garpat32 said:

Ok, here's a real world example.

This is from when I had a GTE on salary sacrifice back in October 2015. I've checked payslip and the previous one before I had the car shows roughly that I paid £28 less pension per month until I hit the spine point the following April, I then paid £20 less for that full year.

Note the mileage allowance showing .56 p per mile also. Lol

Im still confused as to why you think nobody has a clue about the system then. You only have to use something like www.salarycalculator.co.uk to determine the difference in pension contributions with or without a salary sacrifice car.

I dont claim for mileage as never do enough to make it worth my while but isnt a salary sacrifice vehicle classed as a company car? Hence why there are no income tax savings anymore and the need to pay VAT (which i didnt have to on the first 2 cars i had) as HMRC classed it as an employee benefit

[garpat32]

pavarotti1980 said:

garpat32 said:

Ok, here's a real world example.

This is from when I had a GTE on salary sacrifice back in October 2015. I've checked payslip and the previous one before I had the car shows roughly that I paid £28 less pension per month until I hit the spine point the following April, I then paid £20 less for that full year.

Note the mileage allowance showing .56 p per mile also. Lol

Im still confused as to why you think nobody has a clue about the system then. You only have to use something like www.salarycalculator.co.uk to determine the difference in pension contributions with or without a salary sacrifice car.

I dont claim for mileage as never do enough to make it worth my while but isnt a salary sacrifice vehicle classed as a company car? Hence why there are no income tax savings anymore and the need to pay VAT (which i didnt have to on the first 2 cars i had) as HMRC classed it as an employee benefit

As I have pointed out, and others have also said, salary sacrifice lease vehicles are paid the same mileage rate that the NHS guidelines state. I have explained, linked to website and shown evidence of this.

However, as per the NHS guidelines that I have linked to previously, this figure "CAN BE SET BY LOCAL AGREEMENT" so not every NHS trust etc will use these 'guidleines' ours does and so do many more.

A colleague from another trust has actually already commented here to say they are able to claim more that the 'guidleines' show.

[dave_s13]

garpat32 said:

Ok, here's a real world example.

This is from when I had a GTE on salary sacrifice back in October 2015. I've checked payslip and the previous one before I had the car shows roughly that I paid £28 less pension per month until I hit the spine point the following April, I then paid £20 less for that full year.

Note the mileage allowance showing .56 p per mile also. Lol

Here's a snippet from our "ask the ceo" bit of the intranet




It links to here
https://www.nhsemployers.org/tchandbook/annex-11-t...

But that uses the term "lease vehicles".

The term "salary sacrifice" isn't used anywhere. So, I wonder if our trust should be paying salary sacrifice users the 0.56p rate for the 1st 3.5k miles?
As far as I know at the moment the mileage rate for salary sacrifice cars is as above (.26p).......I'm just in the process of finding out for sure.

[jackofall84]

Sorry to go off on a slight tangent, I was wondering though if the lease deals are available to all NHS staff or if it's done by trust?

[garpat32]

jackofall84 said:

Sorry to go off on a slight tangent, I was wondering though if the lease deals are available to all NHS staff or if it's done by trust?

Yeh, different trust's can and do use other lease companies.

[pavarotti1980]

garpat32 said:

As I have pointed out, and others have also said, salary sacrifice lease vehicles are paid the same mileage rate that the NHS guidelines state. I have explained, linked to website and shown evidence of this.

However, as per the NHS guidelines that I have linked to previously, this figure "CAN BE SET BY LOCAL AGREEMENT" so not every NHS trust etc will use these 'guidleines' ours does and so do many more.

A colleague from another trust has actually already commented here to say they are able to claim more that the 'guidleines' show.

You havent answered the question.

As HMRC declared salary sacrifice vehicles as an employee benefit, thus no tax savings (as of 2017) but attracting VAT (as of 2011) & BIK. Does this mean by definition they are classed as a company car. If not then why is BIK applicable?

[garpat32]

pavarotti1980 said:

garpat32 said:

As I have pointed out, and others have also said, salary sacrifice lease vehicles are paid the same mileage rate that the NHS guidelines state. I have explained, linked to website and shown evidence of this.

However, as per the NHS guidelines that I have linked to previously, this figure "CAN BE SET BY LOCAL AGREEMENT" so not every NHS trust etc will use these 'guidleines' ours does and so do many more.

A colleague from another trust has actually already commented here to say they are able to claim more that the 'guidleines' show.

You havent answered the question.

As HMRC declared salary sacrifice vehicles as an employee benefit, thus no tax savings (as of 2017) but attracting VAT (as of 2011) & BIK. Does this mean by definition they are classed as a company car. If not then why is BIK applicable?

You are moving the goalposts and providing no relevant information to the OP.

Regards that last question, no idea, couldn't care less. Our organisation has used fleet solutions for longer that the 10 years I have been here. We have around 2000 staff, and a good percentage have lease cars through them.

If there were issues I'm quite sure HMRC would have caught up with this by now.

Edited by topsey.mod on Tuesday 28th January 15:56

[garpat32]

HMRC clarifies Salary Sacrifice Car Scheme Tax
1ST OCT 2017

As reported previously, Salary Sacrifice schemes changed in April 2017; they were renamed to Optional Remuneration Arrangements, and the government largely removed any tax benefits from getting a new vehicle via a salary sacrifice scheme.

However, HMRC have recently clarified that the changes to the tax treatment on salary sacrifice vehicles only applies to the finance rental of the vehicle. This is good news as it means salary sacrifice drivers will save income tax and employers will save Class 1A NI on the insurance and maintenance elements of the agreement.

For vehicles ordered from April 2017:

A driver will be taxed on whatever the greatest is between:

a) the Income Tax due on the amount of salary sacrificed on the finance rental of the vehicle, or

b) the Benefit in Kind charge on the car, which is determined by the P11D and CO2 emission levels of the vehicle.

[pavarotti1980]

garpat32 said:

I really can't be arsed to with you as you are moving the goalposts and providing no relevant information to the OP.

Regards that last question, no idea, couldn't care less. Our organisation has used fleet solutions for longer that the 10 years I have been here. We have around 2000 staff, and a good percentage have lease cars through them.

If there were issues I'm quite sure HMRC would have caught up with this by now.

Im not interested in the mileage thing I was merely asking the question as to whether they are classed as company cars.

Stop frothing at every opportunity and flouncing around like a huffy 10 year old because someone doesn't agree with you. Its already tedious and we only have 6 pages so far.

The topic is NHS lease scheme and all aspects are pertinent so please don't dictate what "you" think is relevant and what isn't.

[garpat32]

pavarotti1980 said:

garpat32 said:

I really can't be arsed to with you as you are moving the goalposts and providing no relevant information to the OP.

Regards that last question, no idea, couldn't care less. Our organisation has used fleet solutions for longer that the 10 years I have been here. We have around 2000 staff, and a good percentage have lease cars through them.

If there were issues I'm quite sure HMRC would have caught up with this by now.

Im not interested in the mileage thing I was merely asking the question as to whether they are classed as company cars.

Stop frothing at every opportunity and flouncing around like a huffy 10 year old because someone doesn't agree with you. Its already tedious and we only have 6 pages so far.

The topic is NHS lease scheme and all aspects are pertinent so please don't dictate what "you" think is relevant and what isn't.

You need to Take a leaf out of your own book then.

You have provided no information to the OP and this whole thread, all you have done is pick at facts presented and waffled on about irrelevant crap.

If you have nothing to offer the OP why are you here? Apart from contradiction on almost everything I have said.

[pavarotti1980]

garpat32 said:

You need to Take a leaf out of your own book then.

Which is? So far no frothing, huffy behaviour and simple facts. I even posted the e-Tron for everyone to see too.

You post and then when picked up on something resort to childish insults and huffy posts about not being arsed etc etc etc. Common theme from the lease car thread too it seems

[garpat32]

pavarotti1980 said:

garpat32 said:

You need to Take a leaf out of your own book then.

Which is?

You post and then when picked up on something resort to childish insults and huffy posts about not being arsed etc etc etc. Common theme from the lease car thread too it seems

As I said, if you have nothing to offer the OP why are you here?

You have picked issues at almost every opportunity.

Oh and looking at my previous posts to score points? Now who's being childish?

[Phatbenito]

garpat32 said:

You need to Take a leaf out of your own book then.

You have provided no information to the OP and this whole thread, all you have done is pick at facts presented and waffled on about irrelevant crap.

If you have nothing to offer the OP why are you here? Apart from contradiction on almost everything I have said.

You’ve not posted one bit of supportive evidence (what you think is evidence, you are misreading) other than a copy payslip proving you’ve been claiming the 56p. Doesn’t prove you were entitled to. I can show a payslip showing a claim at the reduced rate. We can’t both be right!

[sawman]

Just to go back to the e tron example this next year is 0% bik, the following is 1% and then 2% any what this roughly amount to on a 70k car!