Best 4-cylinder diesel engine?...

[Artsy]

white_goodman said:

Should have mentioned that I don't need an auto (in fact in an older car, auto is probably less efficient), it's just that my current car happens to be automatic. It was the spec that I was after (leather, pan roof, 18" wheels etc) and the right age and mileage and importantly price but just happened to be automatic rather than manual. I still like it and my wife prefers an automatic, so that's all fine but I'm good with and usually buy manual. Thanks for the other suggestions. A friend had a 1.9 TDI Polo and had a few gearbox issues with it. My Polo (2008) wasn't as comfortable as my mk4 Golf and although the mk4 Golf is hardly a beacon for handling, I think that it did feel a bit more surefooted than the Polo. Never tried an Ibiza though and they're certainly more attractive looking than the older Polos. Honda is also a good shout. Always liked the "spaceship" shape Civic, had a later 2013 Civic with the 1.8 petrol and was rather disappointed by it but I've never tried the diesel, so worth taking a look. MG ZT is also a guilty pleasure but quite rare now, not sure whether the manual or automatic would suit that car best with the 135bhp diesel engine?

Another thought is the Mercedes C220 CDI Coupe circa 2007 model.

A friend has this with over 140k miles and no issues at all. It's lightly remapped at around 180BHP and returns around 50mpg with a 5-speed auto. So far it's been completely reliable and comfortable. Prices seem to be under £2,500 easily.

[A1VDY]

RobM77 said:

I don't really understand the love for the VW diesels. Surely they produce less power and have poorer economy than the equivalent BMW engine? (320d ED is 163bhp and a genuine 70mpg+, so it trumps the VW on both). The VW engines also have a noticeably narrower power band and a less natural turbo feeling. I'm not saying they're bad in absolute terms, but I'm struggling to see in what way they're better.

Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 8th July 14:17

Youre right, the BMW unit may have more power as standard and is more refined. The PD engine though is such a great all rounder. Its capable of huge mileage (correct VW 0w30 oil is essential for the unit injectors) and apart from the odd issue is pretty much bullet proof.
They do have a narrow power band and are a bit agricultural sounding but personally think they're one of the best 4pot Diesels out there (Imho)..

[bearman68]

A1VDY said:

Youre right, the BMW unit may have more power as standard and is more refined. The PD engine though is such a great all rounder. Its capable of huge mileage (correct VW 0w30 oil is essential for the unit injectors) and apart from the odd issue is pretty much bullet proof.
They do have a narrow power band and are a bit agricultural sounding but personally think they're one of the best 4pot Diesels out there (Imho)..

0w30? No, the PD engine run on 5-40 VW 505. Not to be confused with the 507 which is not compatible but required in the common rails (an I use it for just about anything else too). 0/30 will kill the cam / injector interface. Seriously 505 in these engines.

But refined????? Really, these engines are a bag of spanners in a washing machine. Almost any other modern diesel is more refined. (Not 'better', just more refined. )

[RobM77]

A1VDY said:

RobM77 said:

I don't really understand the love for the VW diesels. Surely they produce less power and have poorer economy than the equivalent BMW engine? (320d ED is 163bhp and a genuine 70mpg+, so it trumps the VW on both). The VW engines also have a noticeably narrower power band and a less natural turbo feeling. I'm not saying they're bad in absolute terms, but I'm struggling to see in what way they're better.

Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 8th July 14:17

Youre right, the BMW unit may have more power as standard and is more refined. The PD engine though is such a great all rounder. Its capable of huge mileage (correct VW 0w30 oil is essential for the unit injectors) and apart from the odd issue is pretty much bullet proof.
They do have a narrow power band and are a bit agricultural sounding but personally think they're one of the best 4pot Diesels out there (Imho)..

That’s the power you get if you want 70mpg+. If you just want power (I notice you didn’t mention mpg), the non-ED variant is up to 190bhp now, with 330Nm. The Passat is down at 147bhp and 320Nm: https://www.parkers.co.uk/volkswagen/passat/saloon...

[white_goodman]

Thanks for all the suggestions, getting a bit of a shortlist together now.

mk4 Golf GT TDI (130 probably)

W203 C220CDi/W211 E220 CDi

Honda Civic 2.2 CDTi

MG ZT 135 CDTi

BMW 320d (E46/E90)

Volvo S60 D5

The PSA/Vauxhall diesels may be decent but it's the cars that they're available in which I have more of an issue with. It's certainly been a while since I've driven a mk4 Golf GT TDI but I remember that engine being pretty untouchable at the time and whilst certainly not refined, the Focus 1.5 TDCi that I drove more recently certainly seemed harsher/more abrasive. Do Ford use their own diesel engines now, as I seem to remember they were in bed with PSA at some point?

Certainly some that I hadn't considered there: Civic, Volvo D5 (because I didn't think they were that economical), 320d, as my understanding was that they had a few reliability issues.

I'm probably still leaning towards the Golf. I bought a cheap mk4 Golf many years ago with the 2 litre petrol and it was awful, a complete lemon and only lasted me a year. I should have spent a bit more and got the GT TDI, as I know people who still run them and they've been going for years. Also, they're fairly fun to drive.

A W203/W211 is also tempting though for the luxury/cosseting factor. I had a W202 C-Class Estate with the 2.5 5-pot turbodiesel (OM605?) as a cheap stopgap a few years ago. Hardly refined but 220k, pulled like a train, surprisingly economical and felt bulletproof. Is the 5 cylinder diesel (OM612) in the C270CDi/E270CDi just as good or is there a significant drop off in fuel economy/reliability over the 4 cylinder diesel? A bit more "shove" would certainly be welcome if there's not too much of a penalty to pay.

[AJB88]

white_goodman said:

Thanks for all the suggestions, getting a bit of a shortlist together now.

mk4 Golf GT TDI (130 probably)

Dont discount the 150, think somebody above mentioned but the Anniversary edition goes for £££ but if looked after and maintained will be worth more going forward as well. Ibiza Cupra TDI PD160 is another "rarer" car.

I've got a Leon 150 (Stage 2 mapped) as a daily, goes well.

Previously had the PD170 Stage 2 mapped as well.

[uncleluck]

Another vote for PD. Our weapon of choice as a runner when I used to run around buying in the car trade. Knew a few car traders that’d use them which says a lot. 200k on our last one.

Sod all the over complex new stuff (I work in a garage part time)

[anonymous-user]

white_goodman said:

Thanks for all the suggestions, getting a bit of a shortlist together now.

BMW 320d (E46/E90)

Are we seriously going to ignore the elephant in the room with the N47, the camchain stretching? This engine has led to loads of 1 and 3 series cars being scrapped due to issues with the engine.

[reiimii]

I have a 1.9tdi pd Audi (115bhp) and a remapped E46 320d.

The Audi pulls really hard from the bottom end which i think is the characteristic of the pd engines. However it is thirsty and more unrefined than the 320d. Remapped the audi will still make less hp than the 320d when it was stock so i didnt bother.

Both engines are bulletproof but the audi costs more to maintain as it is belt driven and you have to change the waterpump as well when you change the belt.

[wiliferus]

Joey Deacon said:

white_goodman said:

Thanks for all the suggestions, getting a bit of a shortlist together now.

BMW 320d (E46/E90)

Are we seriously going to ignore the elephant in the room with the N47, the camchain stretching? This engine has led to loads of 1 and 3 series cars being scrapped due to issues with the engine.

I think it has been mentioned.

But I’m with you. A £3-4k N47 is basically waiting to die, unless of course it’s had remedial cam chain work. I wouldn’t touch one at that price point.

[njw1]

wiliferus said:

Joey Deacon said:

white_goodman said:

Thanks for all the suggestions, getting a bit of a shortlist together now.

BMW 320d (E46/E90)

Are we seriously going to ignore the elephant in the room with the N47, the camchain stretching? This engine has led to loads of 1 and 3 series cars being scrapped due to issues with the engine.

I think it has been mentioned.

But I’m with you. A £3-4k N47 is basically waiting to die, unless of course it’s had remedial cam chain work. I wouldn’t touch one at that price point.

E46's and early (up to and including early 57 reg cars IIRC) E90's had the M47 engine, these don't suffer with cam chain issues, they're very reliable engines.

[wiliferus]

njw1 said:

E46's and early (up to and including early 57 reg cars IIRC) E90's had the M47 engine, these don't suffer with cam chain issues, they're very reliable engines.

Couldn’t agree more. It’s only the N47 I’d avoid. The M47 was a good unit.
On a side note, I ran a 325tds once. Loved that car, except that for a diesel the mpg was shocking Strangely enough it was a stretched cam chain that killed that car it did have over 150k on it though to be fair..

[bearman68]

I really don't know who'd have a PD over

1) D5 Volvo jobbie.
2) DV10 PSA / Ford 2.0.
3) 2.2 of the above.
4) The M9R engine gives fine service in cars. Less so in vans die to water getting onto the engine and seizing the injectors.

And as for small engines, anyone thought of the Toyota 1.4 d4d? What a little cracker that is.Compare that to a 3 cylinder PD with the same output, :no no no:

You have to remember as well the PD engine is really really bad when matched to a DPF. It just becomes really awful to maintain. There is just so much better stuff out there than that bloody 1.9 PDi.

[RobM77]

white_goodman said:

320d, as my understanding was that they had a few reliability issues.

The later chain drive engine did, but not the E90 generation discussed here. A friend’s is on well over 200k and still going strong. My ED went right up to 140k miles with only £100-£150 a year servicing costs, and the SE before it pulled a similar trick up to 155k. At that mileage the ED was still getting over 70mpg, and my SE 60mpg. I can’t think of a better 4cyl Diesel engine.

[Mr Tidy]

Joey Deacon said:

Are we seriously going to ignore the elephant in the room with the N47, the camchain stretching? This engine has led to loads of 1 and 3 series cars being scrapped due to issues with the engine.

No, I mentioned it in my post on Tuesday!

If I was buying a 1 Series or E9* 3 Series diesel now I'd get an early one with the M47 engine, or do what my BMW Indy recommended and buy one with 6 cylinders, preferably petrol!

[csd19]

white_goodman said:

Thanks for all the suggestions, getting a bit of a shortlist together now.

mk4 Golf GT TDI (130 probably)

W203 C220CDi/W211 E220 CDi

Honda Civic 2.2 CDTi

MG ZT 135 CDTi

BMW 320d (E46/E90)

Volvo S60 D5

You've also got the choice of the Volvo D3 and D4 engines which were a 2.0 version of the 5-pot with 150 and 163/177bhp respectively. Not to be confused with the new 4-pot D4 engine with 181bhp.

[imperium]

I think the 2.2 cdti is nicer to drive than an m47 / n47.

I have an E90 m47, it’s a noisy thing and feels a bit old school compared to the cdti. Might be wrong but think the m47 is from the E46. If I could go back in time I’d get a non turbo petrol.

[RobM77]

Mr Tidy said:

Joey Deacon said:

Are we seriously going to ignore the elephant in the room with the N47, the camchain stretching? This engine has led to loads of 1 and 3 series cars being scrapped due to issues with the engine.

No, I mentioned it in my post on Tuesday!

If I was buying a 1 Series or E9* 3 Series diesel now I'd get an early one with the M47 engine, or do what my BMW Indy recommended and buy one with 6 cylinders, preferably petrol!

This is why the model is against the nomination above. I've had two '20d engined cars (a 2007 and a 2011), as have friends, and all have gone to high mileages reliably. I don't know of another car that'll produce that ratio of mpg to bhp, which is why it's my nomination for the best 4cyl diesel engine.

[Don Roque]

PixelpeepZ4 said:

the honda 1.6 diesel i-DTEC i think is a pretty special engine..

zero road tax, 120bhp and 80mpg if driven carefully.

they respond well to remaps, 165bhp with no hardware changes.

This is a noteworthy engine (I think it wad the first 'Earth Dreams' Honda engine). They did a lot of work with it to improve over the areas where the old 2.2 let them down. The obvious compromise was the loss of about 20bhp or whatever it was, not a huge amount in the scheme of things given the change in displacement.

On the flipside, they put a lot of effort into reducing the friction in the engine to make it comparable to an equivalent petrol. The turbo was worked on to give it more flexibility, and the economy that you can get out of those engines is just staggering. I had nearly 80mpg out of one on a long run without any real effort to be frugal with fuel. They are a very smooth unit that is very nice to drive, for a diesel four banger.

[Sc0tchland]

Don Roque said:

PixelpeepZ4 said:

the honda 1.6 diesel i-DTEC i think is a pretty special engine..

zero road tax, 120bhp and 80mpg if driven carefully.

they respond well to remaps, 165bhp with no hardware changes.

This is a noteworthy engine (I think it wad the first 'Earth Dreams' Honda engine). They did a lot of work with it to improve over the areas where the old 2.2 let them down. The obvious compromise was the loss of about 20bhp or whatever it was, not a huge amount in the scheme of things given the change in displacement.

On the flipside, they put a lot of effort into reducing the friction in the engine to make it comparable to an equivalent petrol. The turbo was worked on to give it more flexibility, and the economy that you can get out of those engines is just staggering. I had nearly 80mpg out of one on a long run without any real effort to be frugal with fuel. They are a very smooth unit that is very nice to drive, for a diesel four banger.

Do you have any Autotrader examples?
Edit: This engine? https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/202...

Edited by Sc0tchland on Saturday 11th July 20:54