Replacement for a Z4

Replacement for a Z4

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Discussion

C70R

17,596 posts

103 months

Monday 27th March 2023
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Shifter1 said:
In the end of the day, you can make any excuses for the Z4 you want. Even if you don't want to concede it looks, sounds and quacks like a sports car, so it should be one, you have to at least find it ridiculous that heavier 2 door saloons are a better steer.

Anyways, like I said, good luck with improving your Z4, the car which apparently is at no fault, but still needs improvement. You are being unfair to it. Trying to force the poor "mini-GT" to be a sports car. smile But let us know how you get on. If you crack it, I might follow suit. I keep saying that. Which means I actually like the car and see the potential. But your defensive replies keep coming across as you think I'm putting the car down.
What on earth are you talking about? laugh

This is one of the weakest attempts at trolling I've seen in a long while.

Shifter1

1,078 posts

90 months

Monday 27th March 2023
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C70R said:
Shifter1 said:
In the end of the day, you can make any excuses for the Z4 you want. Even if you don't want to concede it looks, sounds and quacks like a sports car, so it should be one, you have to at least find it ridiculous that heavier 2 door saloons are a better steer.

Anyways, like I said, good luck with improving your Z4, the car which apparently is at no fault, but still needs improvement. You are being unfair to it. Trying to force the poor "mini-GT" to be a sports car. smile But let us know how you get on. If you crack it, I might follow suit. I keep saying that. Which means I actually like the car and see the potential. But your defensive replies keep coming across as you think I'm putting the car down.
What on earth are you talking about? laugh

This is one of the weakest attempts at trolling I've seen in a long while.
Alright. The troll card. biggrin

I guess you have ran out of arguments. Might as well. Time to end this nonsense. I said pages ago we would need to agree to disagree and that I was fine with that. Apparently you're not. Now that you have played your last card, we came to that anyways. So it was a moot point. Cheers.

C70R

17,596 posts

103 months

Monday 27th March 2023
quotequote all
Shifter1 said:
Alright. The troll card. biggrin

I guess you have ran out of arguments. Might as well. Time to end this nonsense. I said pages ago we would need to agree to disagree and that I was fine with that. Apparently you're not. Now that you have played your last card, we came to that anyways. So it was a moot point. Cheers.
Do you notice how the adults in this thread are capable of nuanced discussion, including the bit where I was very forthcoming about the Z4's limitations? This should be something everyone aspires to.

Instead, you say puerile things like this to try and get a rise out of people. Now, run along and play, there's a good chap.

Shifter1 said:
In the end of the day, you can make any excuses for the Z4 you want. ... good luck with improving your Z4, the car which apparently is at no fault, but still needs improvement ... Trying to force the poor "mini-GT" to be a sports car..

jm8403

2,515 posts

24 months

Monday 27th March 2023
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cerb4.5lee said:
I think I understand what he is getting at. For example the E92 M3 that I had was miles better at going across a nice B road really quickly in comparison to the Z4M...even though the M3 was much bigger/heavier.

The Z4M was unpredictable and not very compliant, whereas the M3 soaked the road up well and it gave you a lot of confidence in comparison. What I am trying to get at is BMW spent a lot of money getting it right, whereas the Z4M is/was a bit of a bodge up in comparison for me.

So basically the M3 gave you the feedback that you want from a sporty car, whereas BMWs actual sports car(the Z4M) was actually a bit of a pup if you know what I mean in comparison.
Fair enough, but you're compared different models, e92 is newer so they had time to work on it. Some even see the event of the ride as part of the character, I find it a little frustrating tbh and so would love to try one with b12's.

C70R

17,596 posts

103 months

Monday 27th March 2023
quotequote all
jm8403 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I think I understand what he is getting at. For example the E92 M3 that I had was miles better at going across a nice B road really quickly in comparison to the Z4M...even though the M3 was much bigger/heavier.

The Z4M was unpredictable and not very compliant, whereas the M3 soaked the road up well and it gave you a lot of confidence in comparison. What I am trying to get at is BMW spent a lot of money getting it right, whereas the Z4M is/was a bit of a bodge up in comparison for me.

So basically the M3 gave you the feedback that you want from a sporty car, whereas BMWs actual sports car(the Z4M) was actually a bit of a pup if you know what I mean in comparison.
Fair enough, but you're compared different models, e92 is newer so they had time to work on it. Some even see the event of the ride as part of the character, I find it a little frustrating tbh and so would love to try one with b12's.
It's really interesting, and definitely down to personal tastes, because I thought the E92 felt heavy and badly under-braked on B-roads. That said, the variable damping did really help deal with imperfect road surfaces in a way a Z4 could only dream of. The E46 M3 on the other hand felt very special when driven hard - it almost felt like it was willing you to push it harder.

TameRacingDriver

18,048 posts

271 months

Monday 27th March 2023
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C70R said:
It's really interesting, and definitely down to personal tastes, because I thought the E92 felt heavy and badly under-braked on B-roads. That said, the variable damping did really help deal with imperfect road surfaces in a way a Z4 could only dream of. The E46 M3 on the other hand felt very special when driven hard - it almost felt like it was willing you to push it harder.
In a way even the lowly 328Ci with its wood dashboard and leather seats, proper grandad car, was a little like this. I could drive it absolutely flat out everywhere and it just wouldn't bite. Almost made it a bit sterile in a way, though I'm sure an M-car isn't ever going to be described as that. However, it did demonstrate that the E46 was an excellent chassis. I had an E36 328 Sport beforehand, and while that car was more raw, and a bit more involving, there's no way you could take the liberties that I did in the E46.

cerb4.5lee

30,189 posts

179 months

Monday 27th March 2023
quotequote all
C70R said:
jm8403 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
I think I understand what he is getting at. For example the E92 M3 that I had was miles better at going across a nice B road really quickly in comparison to the Z4M...even though the M3 was much bigger/heavier.

The Z4M was unpredictable and not very compliant, whereas the M3 soaked the road up well and it gave you a lot of confidence in comparison. What I am trying to get at is BMW spent a lot of money getting it right, whereas the Z4M is/was a bit of a bodge up in comparison for me.

So basically the M3 gave you the feedback that you want from a sporty car, whereas BMWs actual sports car(the Z4M) was actually a bit of a pup if you know what I mean in comparison.
Fair enough, but you're compared different models, e92 is newer so they had time to work on it. Some even see the event of the ride as part of the character, I find it a little frustrating tbh and so would love to try one with b12's.
It's really interesting, and definitely down to personal tastes, because I thought the E92 felt heavy and badly under-braked on B-roads. That said, the variable damping did really help deal with imperfect road surfaces in a way a Z4 could only dream of. The E46 M3 on the other hand felt very special when driven hard - it almost felt like it was willing you to push it harder.
Yes jm8403 and I can definitely commend the character side of the Z4 for sure(the way it is so edgey isn't necessarily a bad thing in many ways).

I definitely echo what you're saying C70R regarding the brakes in the E92 for definite. I had a couple of scary incidents with the weight/poor brakes for sure.

Downshiftup

126 posts

19 months

Monday 27th March 2023
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TameRacingDriver said:
Shifter1 said:
And I think your last sentence is basically why it sold and why most people didn't care much. It was a cute BMW open top that looks different and looks like a sports car. In all fairness, should have driven like one too. Or at least better than the non sports car models.
Yeah I was quite happy to take my z4c out for a hoon on the weekend, as it felt special, went very well (in a straight line) and it did sound very nice with that n52 under its considerable snout.

The 328 could certainly be hustled along very well but I never really fancied going out in it for the sake of it. Felt like a rep mobile with good handling, which is what it was ultimately.

I guess this is why a lot of people say the e46 M3 was ultimately a better steer than the Z4MC.
Never driven an e46 M3. But how does it manage to be better than a Z4? I would think it's considerably heavier? Even if the M3 went on a diet compared to regular 3 series. With the Z4 using e46 underpinnings if I'm not wrong, how does the heavier car manage to be better?

TameRacingDriver

18,048 posts

271 months

Monday 27th March 2023
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Downshiftup said:
Never driven an e46 M3. But how does it manage to be better than a Z4? I would think it's considerably heavier? Even if the M3 went on a diet compared to regular 3 series. With the Z4 using e46 underpinnings if I'm not wrong, how does the heavier car manage to be better?
I don't know exactly why or how but I just felt I could push it hard with more confidence. It didn't feel quite as hard over bumpy roads and it just felt like the car rotated around me effectively. I think due to the position of the drivers seat being right in front of the back wheels in the z4, I didn't feel as though I had the same confidence in it somehow.

cerb4.5lee

30,189 posts

179 months

Monday 27th March 2023
quotequote all
Downshiftup said:
Never driven an e46 M3. But how does it manage to be better than a Z4? I would think it's considerably heavier? Even if the M3 went on a diet compared to regular 3 series. With the Z4 using e46 underpinnings if I'm not wrong, how does the heavier car manage to be better?
If my memory serves me well the E46 M3 is around 50-70kg heavier than the Z4M. However almost everyone who has driven both(and reviews back this up) say that the M3 is the much better overall car in terms of it being much more accomplished suspension/ride/chassis wise.

The M3 just flows down a nice british B road, whereas the Z4M crashes and bangs in comparison if you understand what I mean.

cerb4.5lee

30,189 posts

179 months

Monday 27th March 2023
quotequote all
TameRacingDriver said:
I don't know exactly why or how but I just felt I could push it hard with more confidence. It didn't feel quite as hard over bumpy roads and it just felt like the car rotated around me effectively. I think due to the position of the drivers seat being right in front of the back wheels in the z4, I didn't feel as though I had the same confidence in it somehow.
We've both basically said exactly the same thing there TRD! thumbup

Shifter1

1,078 posts

90 months

Monday 27th March 2023
quotequote all
C70R said:
Shifter1 said:
Alright. The troll card. biggrin

I guess you have ran out of arguments. Might as well. Time to end this nonsense. I said pages ago we would need to agree to disagree and that I was fine with that. Apparently you're not. Now that you have played your last card, we came to that anyways. So it was a moot point. Cheers.
Do you notice how the adults in this thread are capable of nuanced discussion, including the bit where I was very forthcoming about the Z4's limitations? This should be something everyone aspires to.

Instead, you say puerile things like this to try and get a rise out of people. Now, run along and play, there's a good chap.

Shifter1 said:
In the end of the day, you can make any excuses for the Z4 you want. ... good luck with improving your Z4, the car which apparently is at no fault, but still needs improvement ... Trying to force the poor "mini-GT" to be a sports car..
Like I said. You ran out of arguments. Now on to childish putdowns. Every point your brought up I addressed and you brushed over it and moved on back to your same argument that there is nothing wrong with the car. I got bored. If the sarcasm got to you, well, grown ups can deal with sarcasm. But it was just boring to see you brushing over and ignoring arguments. I don't know in which planet a 2002 car is of the same generation as a 2013 one. Just boring and pointless. I told you as much a few pages back. That this was basically a pointless conversation and we should just agree to disagree. Conceding was too much for you, even on that.

I just wonder. If BMW missed no opportunity and the car is as it should be, why are you changing yours? I guess then by your argument, if there is nothing wrong with the car, you were the one who bought the wrong car then? Which is it? You can't have your cake and eat it too. Well, regardless, it doesn't matter.

Edited by Shifter1 on Monday 27th March 19:32

TameRacingDriver

18,048 posts

271 months

Monday 27th March 2023
quotequote all
cerb4.5lee said:
We've both basically said exactly the same thing there TRD! thumbup
Great minds beer

Shifter1

1,078 posts

90 months

Monday 27th March 2023
quotequote all
TameRacingDriver said:
Downshiftup said:
Never driven an e46 M3. But how does it manage to be better than a Z4? I would think it's considerably heavier? Even if the M3 went on a diet compared to regular 3 series. With the Z4 using e46 underpinnings if I'm not wrong, how does the heavier car manage to be better?
I don't know exactly why or how but I just felt I could push it hard with more confidence. It didn't feel quite as hard over bumpy roads and it just felt like the car rotated around me effectively. I think due to the position of the drivers seat being right in front of the back wheels in the z4, I didn't feel as though I had the same confidence in it somehow.
I think cerb4.5lee gave the answer a few pages back. Apparently there was the interest of getting the M3 right. But by the looks of it there was not the same interest with the Z4. It's the explanation which makes the most sense.

C70R

17,596 posts

103 months

Monday 27th March 2023
quotequote all
cerb4.5lee said:
Downshiftup said:
Never driven an e46 M3. But how does it manage to be better than a Z4? I would think it's considerably heavier? Even if the M3 went on a diet compared to regular 3 series. With the Z4 using e46 underpinnings if I'm not wrong, how does the heavier car manage to be better?
If my memory serves me well the E46 M3 is around 50-70kg heavier than the Z4M. However almost everyone who has driven both(and reviews back this up) say that the M3 is the much better overall car in terms of it being much more accomplished suspension/ride/chassis wise.

The M3 just flows down a nice british B road, whereas the Z4M crashes and bangs in comparison if you understand what I mean.
Put succinctly.

Everything that's wrong with the Z4 (safe chassis, numb steering, overdamping) is absolutely right with the E46 M3. It feels alive. Like a bit of a hooligan's car. I'd probably be faster down that road in an Impreza or sorted MX-5, but the M3 is more fun for my style of driving.

It's the closest I've felt to my old 200sx in a German car. I've never driven an E36 M3, but a friend is in the middle of restoring an Evo coupe. I can't wait to try it.

Edited by C70R on Monday 27th March 20:17

coldel

Original Poster:

7,733 posts

145 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
And the last 3 pages is exactly why I didn't want this to go down the route of discussing the Z4C as a sports car.
What I knew would transpire has done exactly that. Its not about a discussion about the pros and cons of the car, its about proving above all else that the car is hugely flawed and not moving from that position until argument is won.

In other news...I looked at GTVs online and I dont think they are for me.

I am though thinking:

987 90k ish miles Boxster S they are kicking around the 9k entry point...am I in for a world of pain though? I read on another buying thread (981 vs 987) that bore score and IMS are very low chance issues on these cars.

Renaultsport Megane Cup 250, I really like the look of these, and the back seats for my 11 year old would be amazing, we wouldnt have to use the wifes Qashqai as a default choice for the three of us. Also I like the idea of trying FWD in the car that won all the awards for it

...dare i say it, a Z4 roadster 3.0i. This would be the best for putting cash back in my pocket. Its a drop top so a whole different world of motoring. But will it be different enough for me.

cerb4.5lee

30,189 posts

179 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
C70R said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Downshiftup said:
Never driven an e46 M3. But how does it manage to be better than a Z4? I would think it's considerably heavier? Even if the M3 went on a diet compared to regular 3 series. With the Z4 using e46 underpinnings if I'm not wrong, how does the heavier car manage to be better?
If my memory serves me well the E46 M3 is around 50-70kg heavier than the Z4M. However almost everyone who has driven both(and reviews back this up) say that the M3 is the much better overall car in terms of it being much more accomplished suspension/ride/chassis wise.

The M3 just flows down a nice british B road, whereas the Z4M crashes and bangs in comparison if you understand what I mean.
Put succinctly.

Everything that's wrong with the Z4 (safe chassis, numb steering, overdamping) is absolutely right with the E46 M3. It feels alive. Like a bit of a hooligan's car. I'd probably be faster down that road in an Impreza or sorted MX-5, but the M3 is more fun for my style of driving.

It's the closest I've felt to my old 200sx in a German car. I've never driven an E36 M3, but a friend is in the middle of restoring an Evo coupe. I can't wait to try it.
As you probably know the 200SX is arguably the most favourite car that I've ever had for overall fun, and once I'd tuned it up a bit I found it to be spot on for me.

I've driven an E36 M3(3.0) a few times and I always enjoyed driving it, and I've also been a passenger in a couple of different E36 3.2 Evos as well. There was always just something about the E36 M3 that I've always loved for sure.

It is weird because I loved driving the E36 M3, but I didn't quite fall for the E46 M3 quite as much when I had a go in one though. I think my expectations were a touch too high for the E46 M3 to be fair, plus I had the Cerbera at the time as well, so the E46 M3 felt a bit limp/heavy in comparison to that(but that isn't the E46 M3s fault though).

cerb4.5lee

30,189 posts

179 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
coldel said:
...dare i say it, a Z4 roadster 3.0i. This would be the best for putting cash back in my pocket. Its a drop top so a whole different world of motoring. But will it be different enough for me.
I know that Roadsters/Convertibles aren't universally loved, but I definitely like them, and they add a fair bit to the driving experience I reckon.

C70R

17,596 posts

103 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
coldel said:
And the last 3 pages is exactly why I didn't want this to go down the route of discussing the Z4C as a sports car.
What I knew would transpire has done exactly that. Its not about a discussion about the pros and cons of the car, its about proving above all else that the car is hugely flawed and not moving from that position until argument is won.

In other news...I looked at GTVs online and I dont think they are for me.

I am though thinking:

987 90k ish miles Boxster S they are kicking around the 9k entry point...am I in for a world of pain though? I read on another buying thread (981 vs 987) that bore score and IMS are very low chance issues on these cars.

Renaultsport Megane Cup 250, I really like the look of these, and the back seats for my 11 year old would be amazing, we wouldnt have to use the wifes Qashqai as a default choice for the three of us. Also I like the idea of trying FWD in the car that won all the awards for it

...dare i say it, a Z4 roadster 3.0i. This would be the best for putting cash back in my pocket. Its a drop top so a whole different world of motoring. But will it be different enough for me.
If you're anywhere near North Norfolk or SW London, you're welcome to drive my relatively sorted standard Z4.

I suspect you'll find all the things you enjoyed and disliked about the Z4C are exactly the same, but with the added benefit of topless motoring. £5k gets you into a good one and the moment, and next to the alternatives they look like ridiculous value (which is why I've just bought one).

TameRacingDriver

18,048 posts

271 months

Tuesday 28th March 2023
quotequote all
After owning quite a few convertibles now, I was actually after a coupe this time, mainly for the better looks, stiffer chassis (not that I'm 100% sure I can always feel any difference) but moreover convertibles are a bit more work, as in you've really got to keep on top of maintenance so they don't leak etc. Clearing drain holes and making sure that the roof is properly water proofed etc. It's not a huge deal but they're definitely a little more work...

On the flip side, as Lee says, there's little to beat the feeling of cruising through the countryside or down by the beach on a warm spring or summer day with the top down. Just be careful you don't burn your forehead laugh

As for the Porsche, I'm never really sure how much of a risk these things actually are. Obviously I'm throwing caution to the wind buying mine, and a small part of me is a little nervous about moving from a nice reliable Mazda to a potentially ruinous Porsche, but ultimately from my research they do actually seem fairly robust and reliable so long as you get a decent one and look after it.

I paid £7k for mine and the worst case scenario I can think of is engine failure. That would cost about £5k to repair, but the chances of it happening are likely no more than around 1 in 20 at the absolute most. They're also still worth a bit in parts so I could probably get rid of a broken one for £3k meaning that in the worst case scenario I'd stand to lose £4k which would be a kick in the nuts but not the absolute end of the world either. I think my advice would be, get it inspected by someone like Nick Giles and if it checks out, go for it, and hope for the best really. I also think if you're just using it as a road car the risk is probably considerably less than if you were using it as a track slag, and they're probably best suited for road use anyway. For track I'd be looking more at an s2000 or even an mx5.