EVs... no one wants them! (Vol. 2)

[cerb4.5lee]

otolith said:

cerb4.5lee said:

It will be a fun day if or when I ever get an EV on here I reckon!

I will be absolutely ripped to pieces I'd imagine for back pedaling on my love for ICE...and I'll need my tin hat that day for sure.

Dunno Lee, was there a time you could never have seen yourself wanting a diesel? How did you feel about changing your mind when you found one you liked?

That was 20 years ago Steve in fairness!

I'm more than 20 years away from wanting an electric car as it stands for sure as well!

When an electric car can do an 800 mile range, I'll be in for definite.

[lornemalvo]

Do EV owners ever worry about power companies withdrawing the cheap tariffs for overnight charging? It would pretty much blow economic advantages out of the water,

[plfrench]

lornemalvo said:

Do EV owners ever worry about power companies withdrawing the cheap tariffs for overnight charging? It would pretty much blow economic advantages out of the water,

No, whilst human activities tend to take place primarily during non-sleeping hours, that differential of awake vs asleep demand will continue. Longer term, ie over the next 15 years or so, and by the time EVs make up the majority of the UK car fleet, then the generation of electricity will be getting cheaper due to gas being a minor component in annual generation by that time too.

Regardless, even if at full household pricing, it would still be significantly cheaper to run than petrol or diesel and that ignores the other benefits of EV running over petrol or diesel.

[NDA]

lornemalvo said:

Do EV owners ever worry about power companies withdrawing the cheap tariffs for overnight charging? It would pretty much blow economic advantages out of the water,

Not really - the average price of 24p per kWh would equate to roughly £17 per 300 miles of range - this is a very rough approximation. My petrol cars cost significantly more for a similar range.

[SWoll]

lornemalvo said:

Do EV owners ever worry about power companies withdrawing the cheap tariffs for overnight charging? It would pretty much blow economic advantages out of the water,

Average cost of a kWh on a standard tariff is 24p. Average EV efficiency is around 3.5 miles/kWh which works out at 6.8p a mile.

Petrol is currently £1.29 a litre on average, so you'd need to be doing 85-90mpg to match that.

[andrewpandrew]

lornemalvo said:

Do EV owners ever worry about power companies withdrawing the cheap tariffs for overnight charging? It would pretty much blow economic advantages out of the water,

I guess it depends on exactly why you’re driving an EV. I know it’s impossible to believe, but for everyday cars I much prefer an EV drivetrain. Even if there was cost parity, I’d still choose to drive EVs day to day. I am also not on a cheap overnight tariff. My unit cost is 20.41p. This means my Polestar costs £19 to fully charge and my Honda costs £6. The former does 300+ miles (best I’ve got was 367) and the Honda will do at least 100 miles. I may be wrong, but I still think that cost per mile is much cheaper than you’d achieve with similar ICE cars.

[tamore]

wouldn't bother me if 'fuelling' and EV was the same cost as fossil fuels. just nicer to driver, more convenient (home charging), more relaxing.

would quite like a quattro S1 E2 or delta S4 to pop to the shops at the weekend though

[cerb4.5lee]

tamore said:

wouldn't bother me if 'fuelling' and EV was the same cost as fossil fuels. just nicer to driver, more convenient (home charging), more relaxing.

would quite like a quattro S1 E2 or delta S4 to pop to the shops at the weekend though

That is where I get to as well occasionally, and if I ran electric with the daily drivers, then it would mean that I'd have much more money to spend on the weekend cars from what I read as well.

[cerb4.5lee]

plfrench said:

lornemalvo said:

Do EV owners ever worry about power companies withdrawing the cheap tariffs for overnight charging? It would pretty much blow economic advantages out of the water,

No, whilst human activities tend to take place primarily during non-sleeping hours, that differential of awake vs asleep demand will continue. Longer term, ie over the next 15 years or so, and by the time EVs make up the majority of the UK car fleet, then the generation of electricity will be getting cheaper due to gas being a minor component in annual generation by that time too.

Regardless, even if at full household pricing, it would still be significantly cheaper to run than petrol or diesel and that ignores the other benefits of EV running over petrol or diesel.

I know that you're a big electric advocate bud, but does an electric car as a weekend car interest you as well, when they eventually make an interesting one of course?

[Dave Hedgehog]

lornemalvo said:

Do EV owners ever worry about power companies withdrawing the cheap tariffs for overnight charging? It would pretty much blow economic advantages out of the water,

it would still be about 70% cheaper than running an ICE car of equivalent performance

[cerb4.5lee]

otolith said:

cerb4.5lee said:

It will be a fun day if or when I ever get an EV on here I reckon!

I will be absolutely ripped to pieces I'd imagine for back pedaling on my love for ICE...and I'll need my tin hat that day for sure.

Dunno Lee, was there a time you could never have seen yourself wanting a diesel? How did you feel about changing your mind when you found one you liked?

Taking the range discussion out of the mix Steve, I guess an i4 M50 or M60 wouldn't necessarily be a bad swap for the M4 really being totally honest. Faster than the M4, and much cheaper to run as well, but I just worry about missing the brum brum noises that I love so much though really.

[loudlashadjuster]

uktrailmonster said:

a_dreamer said:

Of those who have experience with EVs how does power delivery vary between different manufacturers

Thinking the performance cars like the taycan etron GT, BMW I m cars etc?

IME it varies a bit more than you might think. At least in terms of the way the throttle pedal is mapped. But also in the way torque is delivered initially and over sustained acceleration. Some EVs deliver a brutal initial kick and then fade away. Others feel slightly constrained initially and then build power. Tesla tends to be in the former camp, although current Performance models pull very strongly well into 3-digit speeds. The Taycan 4S I drove had a very conservative throttle map, even in Sport mode and didn t feel that quick unless flooring it. Perhaps the best EV power delivery I ve experienced was from a Lotus Emeya. Unlike most EVs it feels most impressive in its midrange acceleration and the motors were deliberately geared that way. This was the low powered 600 hp version and whilst the 0-60 was pretty quick at 4.2 seconds, it was the 30-100+ which really impressed. Rather than tailing off it absolutely rips through the mid range and feels unstoppable. I can only imagine what the 900 hp version is like!

One thing they all have in common is instant pedal response and great modulation. I think Tesla still has the most intuitive pedal mapping. For example I drove a Polestar 3 and thought that was way too sensitive on the throttle at very low speed. The Tesla pedal is so easy to modulate power despite the brutal delivery if you floor it. It s not the on/off switch you might expect. The Taycan pedal seemed a bit tame to me, requiring a lot of pedal travel to wake it up. I never took it out of Sport mode for that reason.

All a bit tricky to explain really, but they are all a bit different.

That was my feeling with the Polestar as well. The Tesla's pedal mapping has been well developed and is very intuitive, both in terms of acceleration and regen. Even jumping in it the first time it feels completely natural, like you've always been driving one. That's impressive.

It took me to spend some time driving a Polestar 2 to realise just how good the Tesla is in this regard.

[mikeiow]

cerb4.5lee said:

tamore said:

wouldn't bother me if 'fuelling' and EV was the same cost as fossil fuels. just nicer to driver, more convenient (home charging), more relaxing.

would quite like a quattro S1 E2 or delta S4 to pop to the shops at the weekend though

That is where I get to as well occasionally, and if I ran electric with the daily drivers, then it would mean that I'd have much more money to spend on the weekend cars from what I read as well.

Lee, if you “ran electric with the daily drivers”, you will be embarrassed how quickly the electric will become THE daily driver.
Seriously bud: just buy one.
We will forgive your rambles, & your place in the EV sub-forum will finally be fully justified

[_Rodders_]

lornemalvo said:

Do EV owners ever worry about power companies withdrawing the cheap tariffs for overnight charging? It would pretty much blow economic advantages out of the water,

I don't worry no but definitely aware it's something that could happen.

From my perspective if an EV and ICE car cost the same amount to run, the EV would still be far more preferable for the daily driver.

It does also make you think there's a huge difference between a efficient EV and not. 2 Vs 4 miles per kWh for example. Not an issue at 7p a unit but something that's worth bearing in mind if you're paying 30p a unit.

[cerb4.5lee]

_Rodders_ said:

From my perspective if an EV and ICE car cost the same amount to run, the EV would still be far more preferable for the daily driver.

It won't come as a surprise to many, but if an EV cost the exact same to run as a daily as something like a lovely 5.0 petrol V8 for example, then I personally wouldn't be going anywhere near an EV in comparison for sure. I miss having a petrol V8 in my life for definite, well apart from the fuel costs anyway. Life doesn't get much better for me than sitting behind a nice sounding petrol V8.

[raspy]

cerb4.5lee said:

Taking the range discussion out of the mix Steve, I guess an i4 M50 or M60 wouldn't necessarily be a bad swap for the M4 really being totally honest. Faster than the M4, and much cheaper to run as well, but I just worry about missing the brum brum noises that I love so much though really.

Iconic Sounds.

[cerb4.5lee]

raspy said:

cerb4.5lee said:

Taking the range discussion out of the mix Steve, I guess an i4 M50 or M60 wouldn't necessarily be a bad swap for the M4 really being totally honest. Faster than the M4, and much cheaper to run as well, but I just worry about missing the brum brum noises that I love so much though really.

Iconic Sounds.

Not the same though for me, and I enjoy listening to a cold start in the morning for example. My neighbours probably don't though!

[TheRainMaker]

lornemalvo said:

Do EV owners ever worry about power companies withdrawing the cheap tariffs for overnight charging? It would pretty much blow economic advantages out of the water,

Not particularly worried, but if that went, we would probably just go back to ICE fairly quickly.

My i3S did around 3.8 miles per kWh on average over the year,

2p per mile with 20% charge losses at 7p per kWh
8p per mile with 20% charge losses at 25p (guess at a standard day rate) per kWh

If you take our Q4, which currently averages 2.5 miles per kWh, the costs are:

3p per mile with 15% charge losses at 7p per kWh
11.5p per mile with 15% chage losses at 25p (guess at a standard day rate) per kWh

A petrol car doing 40 mpg is 12p per mile at current prices.

If you add on the potential 3p per mile, the above costs don't look so good.

[Deep Thought]

cerb4.5lee said:

_Rodders_ said:

From my perspective if an EV and ICE car cost the same amount to run, the EV would still be far more preferable for the daily driver.

It won't come as a surprise to many, but if an EV cost the exact same to run as a daily as something like a lovely 5.0 petrol V8 for example, then I personally wouldn't be going anywhere near an EV in comparison for sure. I miss having a petrol V8 in my life for definite, well apart from the fuel costs anyway. Life doesn't get much better for me than sitting behind a nice sounding petrol V8.

You're taking that to an extreme though arent you? The key phrase there is "for the daily driver".

I cant imagine too many people run a 5.0 litre V8 for commuting any sort of a distance or as a daily. No doubt theres edge cases out there, but "daily driver" in the sense being discussed here is more likely going to align to your Mrs's X5 diesel.

Would anyone mis a rattly diesel in their lives? Thats not completely a dig at your X5 because no doubt its more of a well sound insulated thrum, even from the outside, but your average daily / commuter is more likely to be some four banger diesel eurobox, even in this bubble of multiple car owning enthusiasts.

[Deep Thought]

cerb4.5lee said:

That is where I get to as well occasionally, and if I ran electric with the daily drivers, then it would mean that I'd have much more money to spend on the weekend cars from what I read as well.

Thats where my minds at. An EV as a daily negates the requirement for me to have a four door C43 and for it to be something thats reasonably practical, so theres an opportunity there for "something for the weekend" as it were.