EVs... no one wants them! (Vol. 2)
Discussion
loudlashadjuster said:
uktrailmonster said:
a_dreamer said:
Of those who have experience with EVs how does power delivery vary between different manufacturers
Thinking the performance cars like the taycan etron GT, BMW I m cars etc?
IME it varies a bit more than you might think. At least in terms of the way the throttle pedal is mapped. But also in the way torque is delivered initially and over sustained acceleration. Some EVs deliver a brutal initial kick and then fade away. Others feel slightly constrained initially and then build power. Tesla tends to be in the former camp, although current Performance models pull very strongly well into 3-digit speeds. The Taycan 4S I drove had a very conservative throttle map, even in Sport mode and didn t feel that quick unless flooring it. Perhaps the best EV power delivery I ve experienced was from a Lotus Emeya. Unlike most EVs it feels most impressive in its midrange acceleration and the motors were deliberately geared that way. This was the low powered 600 hp version and whilst the 0-60 was pretty quick at 4.2 seconds, it was the 30-100+ which really impressed. Rather than tailing off it absolutely rips through the mid range and feels unstoppable. I can only imagine what the 900 hp version is like! Thinking the performance cars like the taycan etron GT, BMW I m cars etc?
One thing they all have in common is instant pedal response and great modulation. I think Tesla still has the most intuitive pedal mapping. For example I drove a Polestar 3 and thought that was way too sensitive on the throttle at very low speed. The Tesla pedal is so easy to modulate power despite the brutal delivery if you floor it. It s not the on/off switch you might expect. The Taycan pedal seemed a bit tame to me, requiring a lot of pedal travel to wake it up. I never took it out of Sport mode for that reason.
All a bit tricky to explain really, but they are all a bit different.
It took me to spend some time driving a Polestar 2 to realise just how good the Tesla is in this regard.
cerb4.5lee said:
It will be a fun day if or when I ever get an EV on here I reckon! 
I will be absolutely ripped to pieces I'd imagine for back pedaling on my love for ICE...and I'll need my tin hat that day for sure.
But you don't have to back pedal on you love for ICE. You can love both ICE and EV. They have different characteristics and are good at different things.I will be absolutely ripped to pieces I'd imagine for back pedaling on my love for ICE...and I'll need my tin hat that day for sure.
As others keep saying it's not an either or option, having your cake and eating it is an option.
You already have different cars for different jobs and you love them all for the way they do the job they are designed for.
Deep Thought said:
cerb4.5lee said:
_Rodders_ said:
From my perspective if an EV and ICE car cost the same amount to run, the EV would still be far more preferable for the daily driver.
It won't come as a surprise to many, but if an EV cost the exact same to run as a daily as something like a lovely 5.0 petrol V8 for example, then I personally wouldn't be going anywhere near an EV in comparison for sure. I miss having a petrol V8 in my life for definite, well apart from the fuel costs anyway. Life doesn't get much better for me than sitting behind a nice sounding petrol V8. 
I cant imagine too many people run a 5.0 litre V8 for commuting any sort of a distance or as a daily. No doubt theres edge cases out there, but "daily driver" in the sense being discussed here is more likely going to align to your Mrs's X5 diesel.
Would anyone mis a rattly diesel in their lives? Thats not completely a dig at your X5 because no doubt its more of a well sound insulated thrum, even from the outside, but your average daily / commuter is more likely to be some four banger diesel eurobox, even in this bubble of multiple car owning enthusiasts.
lornemalvo said:
Do EV owners ever worry about power companies withdrawing the cheap tariffs for overnight charging? It would pretty much blow economic advantages out of the water,
That really depends on how you generally use electricity, it's not always going to be advantageous to have cheap overnight if the day rate, which you might use a lot of, is much higher.For example, if you one of you works from home and you have electric heating. A couple of kids and washing going on and showers for everyone, it would probably work out cheaper to be on a std 24hr tariff.
Everyone's used case will be different, so you have to do your sums properly to see if a night tariff is better for you.
cerb4.5lee said:
plfrench said:
lornemalvo said:
Do EV owners ever worry about power companies withdrawing the cheap tariffs for overnight charging? It would pretty much blow economic advantages out of the water,
No, whilst human activities tend to take place primarily during non-sleeping hours, that differential of awake vs asleep demand will continue. Longer term, ie over the next 15 years or so, and by the time EVs make up the majority of the UK car fleet, then the generation of electricity will be getting cheaper due to gas being a minor component in annual generation by that time too.Regardless, even if at full household pricing, it would still be significantly cheaper to run than petrol or diesel and that ignores the other benefits of EV running over petrol or diesel.
I just bought a 2yr old Enyaq yesterday as a replacement family car due to my ID3 company car going and it just works so well for effortless road driving.
3 cars with one being a TVR is working well for me too. First EV replaced the MX5 with the thinking it would be good for local stuff and commuting, but we gave it a go on some long journeys too and it was fine. Nice to stop for lunch and walk the dogs on a 350 mile trip to Devon.
Soon found we were hardly using the Land Rover as while in long journeys it had benefits it still needed £140 of diesel to fill up at the end rather than plugging it in on empty when we got home and filling up for £3.50.
Had two EVs for a year now and with much better range in the BYD than the id4 that makes more sense for long journeys and also works well for dirt cheap commuting.
Soon found we were hardly using the Land Rover as while in long journeys it had benefits it still needed £140 of diesel to fill up at the end rather than plugging it in on empty when we got home and filling up for £3.50.
Had two EVs for a year now and with much better range in the BYD than the id4 that makes more sense for long journeys and also works well for dirt cheap commuting.
lornemalvo said:
Do EV owners ever worry about power companies withdrawing the cheap tariffs for overnight charging? It would pretty much blow economic advantages out of the water,
Not at all, actually I think it's inevitable. Even if it became slightly more expensive than petrol/diesel I would still favour an EV as my daily driver for the many other advantages. Buzz84 said:
Oh the absolute irony, that you, the most blinkered Anti-EV stalwart would post that, Practice what you preach!
You have not been following this have you 
If you agree with me that you can spin the official statistics two ways then you must also agree that both spins need to be posted so people can make up their own minds up.
Unless that is you expect everyone to blindly trust what based users are posting which makes everything one sided.
I don't go into the EV forum and post stuff there. When have I said I was anti EV?
Bless you.
uktrailmonster said:
a_dreamer said:
This thread reads as EV buyers desperate to convince themselves by convincing others they made the right decision Vs ice buyers desperate to convince themselves by convincing others they made the right decision.
It's the whole sega Vs Nintendo flame wars of the 1990's
To me it reads more like the educated vs uneducated. You can certainly predict which posters had some form of higher education on this thread. Not saying they are all EV buyers either, but the majority probably are (on this specific EV related thread). It's the whole sega Vs Nintendo flame wars of the 1990's
TX.
MightyBadger said:
You have not been following this have you
If you agree with me that you can spin the official statistics two ways then you must also agree that both spins need to be posted so people can make up their own minds up.
Unless that is you expect everyone to blindly trust what based users are posting which makes everything one sided.
I don't go into the EV forum and post stuff there. When have I said I was anti EV?
Bless you.
What do you mean by both spins?If you agree with me that you can spin the official statistics two ways then you must also agree that both spins need to be posted so people can make up their own minds up.
Unless that is you expect everyone to blindly trust what based users are posting which makes everything one sided.
I don't go into the EV forum and post stuff there. When have I said I was anti EV?
Bless you.
You posted up Barrie Crapton's take on a battery degradation study.
Barry's take is not a spin that has a matching positive counter-spin elsewhere.
It exists in isolation as a wilful misinterpretation of the data all it's own.
Actually, more likely, Barry has no business even attempting to interpret graphical data as he probably has no idea what he is looking at, and consequently, it's not wilful, it's simply ignorant.
He claims that because the data has more samples in the 3-4 year old bracket that it is saying the opposite of what has been claimed.
No it isn't.
It's entirely obvious why there are more 3-4 year old samples than 12 year old samples for a technology that has been on the market for just 14 years.
Even Baldrick can figure that one out.
He lost it at the bar graph showing the sample distribution.
What he wasn't able to do was to observe that level-headedly and then move on to the scatter graph below it and look at the trend, regardless of sample size.
Remove all the 'excess' 3-4 year samples and the data will still shows the same trend, a gradual degradation in battery capacity with age.
Where is the 'counterspin' to Barry that wilfully or ignorantly claims the data is showing something it's not?
Terminator X said:
Lol higher levels of lunacy from you. I didn't think you could "improve"
TX.
Lunacy hey? There has been a lot of irony displayed on these EV threads lately. TX.
The thing I don’t get with you is that you appear to own one of my favourite cars (A110) and yet you waste your time trolling EV threads instead of talking about it. What’s your problem?
uktrailmonster said:
Terminator X said:
Lol higher levels of lunacy from you. I didn't think you could "improve"
TX.
Lunacy hey? There has been a lot of irony displayed on these EV threads lately. TX.
The thing I don t get with you is that you appear to own one of my favourite cars (A110) and yet you waste your time trolling EV threads instead of talking about it. What s your problem?
TX.
Terminator X said:
uktrailmonster said:
Terminator X said:
Lol higher levels of lunacy from you. I didn't think you could "improve"
TX.
Lunacy hey? There has been a lot of irony displayed on these EV threads lately. TX.
The thing I don t get with you is that you appear to own one of my favourite cars (A110) and yet you waste your time trolling EV threads instead of talking about it. What s your problem?
TX.
Terminator X said:
I barely post in any EV threads and never in the EV section. When I do post it's my personal opinion so no different from yours. You guys seem to struggle with alternative opinions. If you think otherwise it's in your head.
TX.
I dipped my toe into the EV section regrettably recently, and the place is full of nut jobs!! TX.
I won't be doing that again anytime soon for sure, and I'm definitely staying in my lane in General Gassing instead.
cerb4.5lee said:
I dipped my toe into the EV section regrettably recently, and the place is full of nut jobs!!
I won't be doing that again anytime soon for sure, and I'm definitely staying in my lane in General Gassing instead.
I think the main issue is they don’t like trolls in there mate. Same as any other forum. I won't be doing that again anytime soon for sure, and I'm definitely staying in my lane in General Gassing instead.
It's odd how you get used to the new style of driving (i.e. EV), and forget the old ones.
I still have an older petrol smooth auto (torque converter) and it's much the same as the EV apart from the noise. Being old, the throttle response is good too, not like a newer petrol car.
But yesterday I had a ride in a friend's 6-year-old Kia Sportage Diesel manual. OMG, it felt rubbish, noisy, lots of vibrations, a little juddery when moving off.... then I remembered that all cars used to be like that!
The seats gave me backache as well, after an hour. The whole thing said "cheap", and that's bad coming from someone who drives an old Leaf.
I still have an older petrol smooth auto (torque converter) and it's much the same as the EV apart from the noise. Being old, the throttle response is good too, not like a newer petrol car.
But yesterday I had a ride in a friend's 6-year-old Kia Sportage Diesel manual. OMG, it felt rubbish, noisy, lots of vibrations, a little juddery when moving off.... then I remembered that all cars used to be like that!
The seats gave me backache as well, after an hour. The whole thing said "cheap", and that's bad coming from someone who drives an old Leaf.
M4cruiser said:
It's odd how you get used to the new style of driving (i.e. EV), and forget the old ones.
I still have an older petrol smooth auto (torque converter) and it's much the same as the EV apart from the noise. Being old, the throttle response is good too, not like a newer petrol car.
But yesterday I had a ride in a friend's 6-year-old Kia Sportage Diesel manual. OMG, it felt rubbish, noisy, lots of vibrations, a little juddery when moving off.... then I remembered that all cars used to be like that!
The seats gave me backache as well, after an hour. The whole thing said "cheap", and that's bad coming from someone who drives an old Leaf.
You'd expect a Kia to feel "cheap" though surely? I would anyway. But I do know where you're coming from in terms of ICE versus electric in a lot of cases though as you say. I still have an older petrol smooth auto (torque converter) and it's much the same as the EV apart from the noise. Being old, the throttle response is good too, not like a newer petrol car.
But yesterday I had a ride in a friend's 6-year-old Kia Sportage Diesel manual. OMG, it felt rubbish, noisy, lots of vibrations, a little juddery when moving off.... then I remembered that all cars used to be like that!
The seats gave me backache as well, after an hour. The whole thing said "cheap", and that's bad coming from someone who drives an old Leaf.
Googlin said:
I'd say a good DCT is closer to an EV actually, there's nothing of that surge as the torque converter takes up the power, it's just seamless because there actually aren't any gears. A really good DCT can approximate the linearity of an EV, however the Engin has to be working hard to deliver that and most don't come anywhere close. The fact that supercar manufacturers are fitting hybrid systems to their cars, not so much for emissions (though it helps) but to try to replicate the instant torque the only an electric motor can provide sort of tells it all.
Now that utter linearity (and lack of noise) for some also equates to a lack of feel, but it all depends on your perspective. For most people and for most uses the EV powertrain is just more effective.
If you want fast, effective transport, then it's EV every day of the week, for analogue emotion you need to go pre-DCT, it's the modern ICE cars smothered with weight, DCT and electronic systems that seem to be the worst of both worlds to me for sure.
Did you mean to say CVT instead of DCT above? A DCT does have gears. The gear shifting is seamless, but the torque at the wheels is still stepped down incrementally in each gear. Now that utter linearity (and lack of noise) for some also equates to a lack of feel, but it all depends on your perspective. For most people and for most uses the EV powertrain is just more effective.
If you want fast, effective transport, then it's EV every day of the week, for analogue emotion you need to go pre-DCT, it's the modern ICE cars smothered with weight, DCT and electronic systems that seem to be the worst of both worlds to me for sure.
Googlin said:
uktrailmonster said:
Googlin said:
I'd say a good DCT is closer to an EV actually, there's nothing of that surge as the torque converter takes up the power, it's just seamless because there actually aren't any gears. A really good DCT can approximate the linearity of an EV, however the Engin has to be working hard to deliver that and most don't come anywhere close. The fact that supercar manufacturers are fitting hybrid systems to their cars, not so much for emissions (though it helps) but to try to replicate the instant torque the only an electric motor can provide sort of tells it all.
Now that utter linearity (and lack of noise) for some also equates to a lack of feel, but it all depends on your perspective. For most people and for most uses the EV powertrain is just more effective.
If you want fast, effective transport, then it's EV every day of the week, for analogue emotion you need to go pre-DCT, it's the modern ICE cars smothered with weight, DCT and electronic systems that seem to be the worst of both worlds to me for sure.
Did you mean to say CVT instead of DCT above? A DCT does have gears. The gear shifting is seamless, but the torque at the wheels is still stepped down incrementally in each gear. Now that utter linearity (and lack of noise) for some also equates to a lack of feel, but it all depends on your perspective. For most people and for most uses the EV powertrain is just more effective.
If you want fast, effective transport, then it's EV every day of the week, for analogue emotion you need to go pre-DCT, it's the modern ICE cars smothered with weight, DCT and electronic systems that seem to be the worst of both worlds to me for sure.
I actually prefer a conventional auto in a big ICE coupe (as I think do BMW which is why the 8 series ditched the DCT in favour of a ZF 8 speed)
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