EVs... no one wants them! (Vol. 2)

[p1stonhead]

_Hoppers said:

p1stonhead said:

SWoll said:

p1stonhead said:

_Hoppers said:

p1stonhead said:

Since getting an i3 I ve absolutely loved how narrow it is especially because I m always going down country lanes.

I think the i3 looks narrow but it's deceptive (unless you're used to driving a Range Rover?). In reality it's wider than a F30, when including the mirrors and the body of the i3 is only 3.6cm narrower.

I literally came directly into the i3 from a full size Range Rover

That is surprising though it feels really thin. I have an E93 too and it feels way smaller than that too but apparently it's not. Perspective I guess!

It definitely 'fits' on my local lanes a lot more than the huge SUV's I encounter though.

Edited by p1stonhead on Wednesday 11th March 09:28

It feels a narrow car around town and b roads as it's the mirrors that add a lot to the overall width. Great for parking almost anywhere though as so maneuverable, as long as you don't have to get anyone out of the back via the suicide doors of course.

The back doors are the only negative day to day (have two small kids) but I can deal with it.

Car parks are the worst when you open both doors next to another car and you re trapped in mini jail between the doors and the neighbouring car

I don't have a problem with the doors, you're doing it wrong! When you get out leave the front door open (obviously), stand at the hinge side of the rear door and open it across you, let the rear passenger out, shut rear, they shut front, walk off. Only works if your passengers can walk though

I always think of this scene from friends

[_kitt_]

matt173407 said:

So i am not against EV's etc but at the moment they just don't really do it for me as an example just looking at 2nd hand so average (please don't quote me)
so 2018 some form of Tesla 100k+ mileage £14k or 2018 Focus ST 2.0 50k miles £10k. I would also have to have home charger installed etc. Yes fuel maybe more expensive etc for the ST (although if public charging I beleive that is not cheap either) but I feel would hold its value more and also much more fun to drive (this is just a simple example) I would then be worried about battery perfomance / loss etc and the fact I would need to plan journeys.

This is also my concern about buying a new one at say over £30k is the depreciation on an EV after 3 years unless leasing it, I get a lot of I save x amount not having to buy fuel, if you have home charger yes but so far from what i have seen is on a new EV you will lose far more in depreciation than
you save on fuel - Again correct me if I am wrong.

As per many here it probably comes down to preference.
Also I guess younger drivers now I guess want more of some kind of mobile social media entertainment rather then a drivers car. Long gone are the days of practicing handbrake turns in carparks.

I would also be interested in terms of the amount of speeding fines for EV drivers compared to ICE as yes they are quick off line and easy to exceed the limits without realising it due to lack of noise / feel. Again not saying better or worse than ICE just curious

these are just my humble thoughts and not based on any form of scientific evidence

All understandble points from someone analysing pros and cons to make the switch.

-Home charger you don't necessarily need but you would need to make sure you plug the car in when it is at home as it takes a long time to charge. You'd need to be doing in excess of something like 15,000 miles a year to make "granny" charging a real hassle though. All depends on your driving habits and timings. You'd certainly not be able to get the majority of your charge done during the cheap overnight rates either.

-Cost savings are large if you home charge vs a petrol/diesel. I have a couple of EVs and we do 25-30k per annum in them. I don't miss seeing £100 a pop disappear from my bank account every week on fuel.

-Battery performance/loss is unlikely to be an issue. Most batteries suffer some relatively minor degredation in range in the first few years, after that the curve flattens out, usually plateaing at 80% in the long term (i.e. 10 years+). Personally I just leave mine on the % rather than miles left display.

-Journey planning I just let the navigation system take care of it. It rarely requires me to stop for more than 5-15 mins on road trips.

-Tesla public charging cost is substantially cheaper than other brands. It is cheaper than fuel.

-Performance is brisk but they have a lot of regen breaking and are setup for one pedal driving. It makes it easy to hold speeds by gentle adjustment of the throttle pedal. Easier than a petrol/diesel car.

-Depreciation can be brisk if you buy new, as it is for a petrol/diesel, probably worse for an EV. However that just means you buy second hand and get a bargain!

-Also EVs are generally offered with much longer warranty periods than petrol/diesel. Tesla offer 8 years/120k miles on the drive unit and battery with zero servicing requirement. I can't think of a petrol diesel manufacturer who offers similar terms.

[CMTMB]

loudlashadjuster said:

Jte3397 said:

matt173407 said:

With servicing though my friend has Volvo Ex30 3yrs old he paid £30k , service had to be volvo to try keep the value but that cost £1200 so I could be wrong but i don't think servicing especially if you have to use dealers is going to save anything, tyres seem very expensive as well. (Apologies he may just be getting ripped off and this is not the general case)
I am not convinced that the fuel / servicing savings compensate the depreciation , in my simple mind they way the tech is changing and the speed it is a yr old EV is already outdated (Again my own unproved / unscientific view)

Ideally I would like an EV that gives me the looks , some noise and the drive and feel of a hot hatch (even though i am prob too old) that i think would get me passed rage anxiety

You're not alone. There's a lot of rage anxiety on here

And almost all of it by proxy, expressed by people who don't even own EVs!

I'd go further and say the people who shout loudest about range anxiety have never even driven an EV.

[RizzoTheRat]

_kitt_ said:

-Also EVs are generally offered with much longer warranty periods than petrol/diesel. Tesla offer 8 years/120k miles on the drive unit and battery with zero servicing requirement. I can't think of a petrol diesel manufacturer who offers similar terms.

The servicing requirement is the big one there, it's becoming more common these days to offer longer warranties with dealer servicing, which make sense as they know it's serviced properly, but means the dealer network can charge you what they like for a service as you aren't able to shop around.

[cidered77]

_Rodders_ said:

Width is the most annoying metric of modern cars.

If you drive a wide modern car don't encroach on my side of the road, take it from the curb side.

It's a daily thing on some of the narrow roads where they're taking 18 inches on their side and if you took the same you'd essentially crash.

It's tempting to stick some reinforcement into the mirror supports and just let them crack on.

this together with cars riding terribly i think are two of the biggest issues with so many modern cars, but never seem to get prominence in motoring press. Instead i read so much about "hard plastics" or "heating controls aren't buttons", and I think i don't really care much about such things (leave it at 22 degrees, innit!).

Width of so many modern cars make them totally impractical in UK carparks, and on UK B roads. A Polestar 4 is wider than a Lambourghini Diablo. A mercedes S class - say a late 90s W220, or later W221 - should be the classic benchmark for "big car", but is narrower than the 3 or 4 "mid size" EVs like Alpine A390 i just spot checked. how on earth did that happen?

[Sporky]

I quite liked the "rage anxiety" typo. Rather apt.

[PBCD]

matt173407 said:

Ideally I would like an EV that gives me the looks , some noise and the drive and feel of a hot hatch

Sounds like the upcoming Peugeot E208 Gti might tick those boxes:

[uktrailmonster]

matt173407 said:

With servicing though my friend has Volvo Ex30 3yrs old he paid £30k , service had to be volvo to try keep the value but that cost £1200 so I could be wrong but i don't think servicing especially if you have to use dealers is going to save anything, tyres seem very expensive as well. (Apologies he may just be getting ripped off and this is not the general case)
I am not convinced that the fuel / servicing savings compensate the depreciation , in my simple mind they way the tech is changing and the speed it is a yr old EV is already outdated (Again my own unproved / unscientific view)

Ideally I would like an EV that gives me the looks , some noise and the drive and feel of a hot hatch (even though i am prob too old) that i think would get me passed rage anxiety

The Volvo EX30 has only been on sale for barely 2 years and £1,200 for a routine service sounds like complete bs to me. Wtf did they do for that cost? My Tesla has cost £0 in servicing over 4 years, except for tyres which wear about the same as any other similar ICE car.

EV tech is not changing THAT fast either. A 1 year old EV is not even remotely outdated. Again my 4 year old Tesla is far from outdated. It’s no more dated than a 4 year old ICE car would be. Probably less so with frequent OTA updates.

Sounds like you are just putting mental barriers up because of your attachment to ICE hot hatches. That’s perfectly fine, but not being completely honest with your reasoning.

[confused_buyer]

RizzoTheRat said:

The servicing requirement is the big one there, it's becoming more common these days to offer longer warranties with dealer servicing, which make sense as they know it's serviced properly, but means the dealer network can charge you what they like for a service as you aren't able to shop around.

The servicing requirements from legacy manufacturers to maintain the extended warranty is a complete rip off. The "service" is way less than a MOT check. There are a *small* number of cars which require some sort of fluid change (coolant or gear oil) and one mileage or another but they are small in number and usually only once in a blue moon.

It is just there to keep their dealers in business.

[Mark V GTD]

_kitt_ said:

Depreciation can be brisk if you buy new, as it is for a petrol/diesel, probably worse for an EV. However that just means you buy second hand and get a bargain!

This is an oft made point but as most new cars are bought on finance you can just hand them back at the end of the PCP period. My Honda suffers from catastrophic depreciation but it won't be my problem.

[p1stonhead]

Mark V GTD said:

_kitt_ said:

Depreciation can be brisk if you buy new, as it is for a petrol/diesel, probably worse for an EV. However that just means you buy second hand and get a bargain!

This is an oft made point but as most new cars are bought on finance you can just hand them back at the end of the PCP period. My Honda suffers from catastrophic depreciation but it won't be my problem.

Isn't a PCP/lease just paying the depreciation plus a bit of profit? So you're paying what you might have paid if you'd bought it?

[otolith]

p1stonhead said:

Isn't a PCP/lease just paying the depreciation plus a bit of profit? So you're paying what you might have paid if you'd bought it?

Yes - and interest - difference is that you are not gambling on it.

[p1stonhead]

otolith said:

p1stonhead said:

Isn't a PCP/lease just paying the depreciation plus a bit of profit? So you're paying what you might have paid if you'd bought it?

Yes - and interest - difference is that you are not gambling on it.

True.

But the statement "My Honda suffers from catastrophic depreciation but it won't be my problem" is fine if you dont consider paying the depreciation as a problem, but its definitely yours to suffer.

[uktrailmonster]

otolith said:

p1stonhead said:

Isn't a PCP/lease just paying the depreciation plus a bit of profit? So you're paying what you might have paid if you'd bought it?

Yes - and interest - difference is that you are not gambling on it.

Plus there are all sorts of incentives involved. For example I know a BMW dealer principal who told me about offering subsidised lease deals to hit their dealer bonus targets with BMW. Those bonuses were worth pushing out cheap lease deals to secure. Lease companies are also buying their cars cheaper than a private buyer would be able to negotiate.

[otolith]

uktrailmonster said:

Plus there are all sorts of incentives involved. For example I know a BMW dealer principal who told me about offering subsidised lease deals to hit their dealer bonus targets with BMW. Those bonuses were worth pushing out cheap lease deals to secure. Lease companies are also buying their cars cheaper than a private buyer would be able to negotiate.

Yep. And at the end of the day, you don't need to care what the provider paid for it or what they will eventually sell it on for. Someone else's problem. What it costs you is what is on the agreement, take it or leave it.

[nickfrog]

p1stonhead said:

Mark V GTD said:

_kitt_ said:

Depreciation can be brisk if you buy new, as it is for a petrol/diesel, probably worse for an EV. However that just means you buy second hand and get a bargain!

This is an oft made point but as most new cars are bought on finance you can just hand them back at the end of the PCP period. My Honda suffers from catastrophic depreciation but it won't be my problem.

Isn't a PCP/lease just paying the depreciation plus a bit of profit? So you're paying what you might have paid if you'd bought it?

Except it's often a very good way to discount without affecting the headline figure (too much). The Honda EN1 (name?) was the perfect example at £179 no deposit. Paying cash would have yielded more depreciation even with the (retail) discounts. A bit of an opportunity cost saving too. The certainty is also a plus.

The alternative is to buy used or nearly new when market forces have done their thing.

[andrewpandrew]

uktrailmonster said:

matt173407 said:

With servicing though my friend has Volvo Ex30 3yrs old he paid £30k , service had to be volvo to try keep the value but that cost £1200 so I could be wrong but i don't think servicing especially if you have to use dealers is going to save anything, tyres seem very expensive as well. (Apologies he may just be getting ripped off and this is not the general case)
I am not convinced that the fuel / servicing savings compensate the depreciation , in my simple mind they way the tech is changing and the speed it is a yr old EV is already outdated (Again my own unproved / unscientific view)

Ideally I would like an EV that gives me the looks , some noise and the drive and feel of a hot hatch (even though i am prob too old) that i think would get me passed rage anxiety

The Volvo EX30 has only been on sale for barely 2 years and £1,200 for a routine service sounds like complete bs to me. Wtf did they do for that cost? My Tesla has cost £0 in servicing over 4 years, except for tyres which wear about the same as any other similar ICE car.

Well for a start the EX30 comes with 3 years free servicing, so it sounds like the friend is partial to a bit of BS.

What's it come to when people don't question things that blatantly sound ridiculous?

[_Hoppers]

p1stonhead said:

_Hoppers said:

p1stonhead said:

SWoll said:

p1stonhead said:

_Hoppers said:

p1stonhead said:

Since getting an i3 I ve absolutely loved how narrow it is especially because I m always going down country lanes.

I think the i3 looks narrow but it's deceptive (unless you're used to driving a Range Rover?). In reality it's wider than a F30, when including the mirrors and the body of the i3 is only 3.6cm narrower.

I literally came directly into the i3 from a full size Range Rover

That is surprising though it feels really thin. I have an E93 too and it feels way smaller than that too but apparently it's not. Perspective I guess!

It definitely 'fits' on my local lanes a lot more than the huge SUV's I encounter though.

Edited by p1stonhead on Wednesday 11th March 09:28

It feels a narrow car around town and b roads as it's the mirrors that add a lot to the overall width. Great for parking almost anywhere though as so maneuverable, as long as you don't have to get anyone out of the back via the suicide doors of course.

The back doors are the only negative day to day (have two small kids) but I can deal with it.

Car parks are the worst when you open both doors next to another car and you re trapped in mini jail between the doors and the neighbouring car

I don't have a problem with the doors, you're doing it wrong! When you get out leave the front door open (obviously), stand at the hinge side of the rear door and open it across you, let the rear passenger out, shut rear, they shut front, walk off. Only works if your passengers can walk though

I always think of this scene from friends

[tamore]

andrewpandrew said:

Well for a start the EX30 comes with 3 years free servicing, so it sounds like the friend is partial to a bit of BS.

What's it come to when people don't question things that blatantly sound ridiculous?

full set of tyres at the very premium end making up most of it?

[andrewpandrew]

tamore said:

andrewpandrew said:

Well for a start the EX30 comes with 3 years free servicing, so it sounds like the friend is partial to a bit of BS.

What's it come to when people don't question things that blatantly sound ridiculous?

full set of tyres at the very premium end making up most of it?

Maybe, but if some said to me "my car cost £1200 to service", I wouldn't think that included tyres.

And either way, if the servicing is free, the service cost nothing and he spent £1200 on tyres!