RE: PH Competes: EnduroKa

[ginettajoe]

Some Gump said:

Here's what i completely don't get about these series: They all use the sttest cars going.

116i trophy? Why not a 120i? 120d?.something better? The total cost of a season is so little influenced by the initial cost of the car, I just don't get it.

I love the concept of low cost endurance racing, but just can't fathom the idea of a 2 hour stint at Oulton in a 1.3 Ka or a 1.6 bmw. Both of those would be frustrating as hell on the morning commute, never mind one of the tracks with the best high speed bits on that I've driven. Surely a.relatively unstressed but higher output base car would be a much better start point? As long as it didn't get massively heavier then e.g brake and tyre wear wouldn't be hugely changed...

I understand the points you have raised, and initially I felt the same, but having been involved, having driven one at Silverstone on the Motorsport Days event at the beginning of November, I now have a totally different train of thought. The car is based around the 116 produced from 2004 to 2006 with a five speed gearbox, and tends to have a lighter engine and gearbox, which helps to keep the weight down, it has a high capacity fuel tank relative to its low consumption, and the race cars will be running a sealed ECU programmed to give 125bhp initially, but once the cars have been competing, it is likely that the power will be increased, by 10 or 15 bhp. It is unlikely there will be a big gain in laptimes, because it is the torque developed that is the important factor!!
You almost answered your own question when questioning the reason why that car was chosen, when you mentioned tyre wear, and brake pads. It isn't just those components, it is also drive shafts, wheel bearings, suspension components, and anything else that has to take the abuse in a heavier and more powerful car! Remember, these cars are being built to withstand long distances, not a 20 minute sprint race, but anything up to 24 hours.
Regarding your point about pace at somewhere like Oulton, I would tend to disagree having driven a 116, and having been a regular racer at Oulton Park for over 34 years, in many different formulae, with a grid full of them, it will produce good close and reliable racing!!!
Just to put it into a slightly better perspective, when I drove the 116 at Silverstone, there were Ka's and C1's on track at the same time, and the pace of the 116 was far, far greater than either of the other two, both down Hangar Straight, and though both high and low speed corners!! Now your analogy would accurately describe either of those other two cars at Oulton Park, and bear in mind, the car I did numerous laps in, had all the interior in place, and was only partly prepared as a race car!!
To sum up the idea behind the 116 Trophy is to provide inexpensive endurance racing, in a car that looks like a race car, has rear wheel drive, is proven to be reliable, and safe car to race. When the interior is stripped out, it is like brand new, with carpets coming out cleanly, with out chunks of rusty floor pan attached to them!
Also, for numerous years, I raced Mini Miglias, and I was a member of the Mini 7 Racing Club, and each January, they held an AGM at Silverstone Circuit, and drivers would propose a change to the spec of the car, someone would second that proposal, and then the vote was put to the floor! If it was a unanimous vote, that change would be implemented from the following January, and everyone was happy! The 116 Trophy is going to operate a similar idea, so any changes will be decided by the drivers, no-one else!
I hope this explained a little more about the thinking behind the series, and I really do know where I want my money, because I don't want it to be similar to a frustrating morning commute!!

[Sandpit Steve]

BenLowden said:

Turbobanana said:

But of advice from a very long term spectator though: if you really want the public to get behind you, invest time and effort in your livery. If you create a distinctive looking car the crowd (especially the kids) will love you.

Thank you, that's a good shout. Our car is black and my plan was white wheels/decals to match the old PH logo colours, but maybe we need to get a bit more creative. Perhaps Matt will get his way with gold decals/wheels after all!

SpudLink said:

Can we expect the race events to coincide with PH SS meetings?

Absolutely. We're going to hold a Sunday Service at Snetterton on the 16th June and we'll have a discount code that PHers can use for every event in the series for anyone that wants to come along and watch.

Deadlysub said:

Are you going to detail the buld and the costs involved?

Definitely. At the moment we're estimating £15K for the series for everything. So buying the car, all the parts required plus spares, fixing it, fuel/tyres, breaking it and fixing it some more and race entry fees. That doesn't include personal costs though, such as race suit, HANS, helmet etc.

There's six of us on our team so it'll be around £2,500 each and we'll have to sit out one race each (I think) apart from Snetterton where we can all race as it's 12 hours. All the others are max four drivers but we'll probably all go to most events where we can to help out.

Mr-B said:

And what licence is required?

National B. A couple of us took our ARDS this week; a full article to come on that in due course but you'll need a Go Racing pack from Motorsport UK (£100), which includes your first years licence fee. The ARDS test is around £300 depending on where you take it.

This sounds like an absolutely awesome project, what’s not to like about cheap and fun motorsport? Definitely look forward to reading all about your adventures over the course of the season and hope to get to a race or two in person.

Good luck to Team PH, especially given that you’re doing it ‘properly’ yourselves rather than taking the easy ‘celebrity car’ option. This has all the makings of a great little series if they can get a good field together.

[BenLowden]

Some Gump said:

Here's what i completely don't get about these series: They all use the worst cars going.

As a team sport, the actual car choice is almost irrelevant to me. The whole point of this series (to me) is getting together with a group of mates and going racing for the first time and having a right giggle together in the process. If I was racing on my own, no I wouldn't enter a series in a Ford KA. But my perception of the car is seemingly different in this situation.

In my very limited time driving our car on the road, it does actually feel like it's going to be good fun. Time will tell when we get it on track but I'd much rather learn how to drive a (very) slow car fast to start with as a basis to then do something different next year in a faster car.

Sandpit Steve said:

This sounds like an absolutely awesome project, what’s not to like about cheap and fun motorsport? Definitely look forward to reading all about your adventures over the course of the season and hope to get to a race or two in person.

Good luck to Team PH, especially given that you’re doing it ‘properly’ yourselves rather than taking the easy ‘celebrity car’ option. This has all the makings of a great little series if they can get a good field together.

Thank you! There are 39 teams registered so far and I expect a few of those teams will have more than one car, so I don't think MSV are struggling to fill the grids.

[itcaptainslow]

The one time buying the rustiest Ka possible is beneficial, as it’ll be lighter than the competition...

Looks great fun, keep us posted!

[ribiero]

Some Gump said:

Here's what i completely don't get about these series: They all use the sttest cars going.

116i trophy? Why not a 120i? 120d?.something better? The total cost of a season is so little influenced by the initial cost of the car, I just don't get it.

I love the concept of low cost endurance racing, but just can't fathom the idea of a 2 hour stint at Oulton in a 1.3 Ka or a 1.6 bmw. Both of those would be frustrating as hell on the morning commute, never mind one of the tracks with the best high speed bits on that I've driven. Surely a.relatively unstressed but higher output base car would be a much better start point? As long as it didn't get massively heavier then e.g brake and tyre wear wouldn't be hugely changed...

I dont get the 116's it's a much more expensive shell than what else is out there.. I like the idea of launching a class within club enduro, but a 116 compared to mk1 mx5's/compacts/mr2 or another production car that are plentyful and already available?

I know it doesnt make the reg setters or the car builders any money but the reason fwd low powered cars are popular is their meant to be built for 3-4k (enduroka is £1,600ish for kit and sub £1k doners plentyful) I had a look for doner 116's, I thought c1 doners were rare (compared to a couple of years ago) but these are even worse and that's before people start hoovering them up as spares.

2hrs in a KA around Oulton, i'm a fan of, it's 500 laps of Brands Indy! ouch!

Edited by ribiero on Monday 25th February 09:48

[Turbobanana]

Pericoloso said:

12 Heures du Norfolk......LOL......

Hope they can fill the grid up ,nothing worse than a race with only a dozen or so cars, or KAs.

You laugh, but from 1980-1994 there was the legendary Willhire 24 hour race at Snetterton, usually held the weekend after Le Mans. That used to draw a huge entry (admittedly also a huge variety of machinery), as well as a huge crowd.

From my first visit in 1988 to the last running in 1994 I used to book a couple of weeks off work, do Le Mans the first weekend then straight to Snet once I got back. In a way the Willhire was more fun because you camped in the infield, had your car with you and could walk everywhere because it was much smaller than La Sarthe.

Happy days!

[Sandpit Steve]

Turbobanana said:

You laugh, but from 1980-1994 there was the legendary Willhire 24 hour race at Snetterton, usually held the weekend after Le Mans. That used to draw a huge entry (admittedly also a huge variety of machinery), as well as a huge crowd.

From my first visit in 1988 to the last running in 1994 I used to book a couple of weeks off work, do Le Mans the first weekend then straight to Snet once I got back. In a way the Willhire was more fun because you camped in the infield, had your car with you and could walk everywhere because it was much smaller than La Sarthe.

Happy days!

That sounds a lot like the 24 hours of LeMons which still goes on every year in Colorado. Teams have a $500 budget for everything bar the safety equipment (which does have to be done properly!), and the event for most of the entrants is much more about having a good time than anything else. Which is just as well, because not a lot of them make the finish!

Shed racing at its finest
https://youtube.com/watch?v=zMuu3Q2O17g

[Truckosaurus]

Indeed. I suspect these endurance racing series are deliberately using little cars to set an expectation that it is primarily for amusement not proving you are the next Lewis Hamiltons. It's also a good way of filtering out people with fragile egos who might cause trouble by taking things too seriously.

[thatdude]

Well, if anyone fancies this and needs a driver, and doesn't mind one with absolutely no track driving experience whatsoever but can put money in for a few bits and pieces...I'm your guy

Seriously though, this looks like a really good racing series for people who want to do racing but not so seriously. There is still the thrill of competition.

Edited by thatdude on Monday 25th February 13:42

[ginettajoe]

ribiero said:

Some Gump said:

Here's what i completely don't get about these series: They all use the sttest cars going.

116i trophy? Why not a 120i? 120d?.something better? The total cost of a season is so little influenced by the initial cost of the car, I just don't get it.

I love the concept of low cost endurance racing, but just can't fathom the idea of a 2 hour stint at Oulton in a 1.3 Ka or a 1.6 bmw. Both of those would be frustrating as hell on the morning commute, never mind one of the tracks with the best high speed bits on that I've driven. Surely a.relatively unstressed but higher output base car would be a much better start point? As long as it didn't get massively heavier then e.g brake and tyre wear wouldn't be hugely changed...

I dont get the 116's it's a much more expensive shell than what else is out there.. I like the idea of launching a class within club enduro, but a 116 compared to mk1 mx5's/compacts/mr2 or another production car that are plentyful and already available?

I know it doesnt make the reg setters or the car builders any money but the reason fwd low powered cars are popular is their meant to be built for 3-4k (enduroka is £1,600ish for kit and sub £1k doners plentyful) I had a look for doner 116's, I thought c1 doners were rare (compared to a couple of years ago) but these are even worse and that's before people start hoovering them up as spares.

2hrs in a KA around Oulton, i'm a fan of, it's 500 laps of Brands Indy! ouch!

Edited by ribiero on Monday 25th February 09:48

In response to your comment regarding it being an expensive shell, I'm afraid you are obviously looking in the wrong places!! Even it it is £200 more expensive than a Ka shell, you wouldn't be spending valuable time cutting out rust and rebuilding the shell!! The BMW shell is as new when you remove the interior! You obviously didn't read what I explained donor cars can be accessed for!!

[Turbobanana]

Sandpit Steve said:

Turbobanana said:

You laugh, but from 1980-1994 there was the legendary Willhire 24 hour race at Snetterton, usually held the weekend after Le Mans. That used to draw a huge entry (admittedly also a huge variety of machinery), as well as a huge crowd.

From my first visit in 1988 to the last running in 1994 I used to book a couple of weeks off work, do Le Mans the first weekend then straight to Snet once I got back. In a way the Willhire was more fun because you camped in the infield, had your car with you and could walk everywhere because it was much smaller than La Sarthe.

Happy days!

That sounds a lot like the 24 hours of LeMons which still goes on every year in Colorado. Teams have a $500 budget for everything bar the safety equipment (which does have to be done properly!), and the event for most of the entrants is much more about having a good time than anything else. Which is just as well, because not a lot of them make the finish!

Shed racing at its finest
https://youtube.com/watch?v=zMuu3Q2O17g

LeMons is a fine tradition, but Willhire was nothing like that. Well organised teams, quality drivers (for the most part) and, latterly, run to Group N rules.

[frodo_monkey]

ginettajoe said:

In response to your comment regarding it being an expensive shell, I'm afraid you are obviously looking in the wrong places!! Even it it is £200 more expensive than a Ka shell, you wouldn't be spending valuable time cutting out rust and rebuilding the shell!! The BMW shell is as new when you remove the interior! You obviously didn't read what I explained donor cars can be accessed for!!

Absolutely - we built one at Autosport (ok, we cheated and put in cage mounts etc beforehand). Donor car was less than a grand. Video here:

https://youtu.be/XHlaO2zyH08

[Munter]

If you want a Ka there is an abandoned one in my road. Just apply for the V5 and take it. Please. Please take it.

[Sandpit Steve]

Turbobanana said:

LeMons is a fine tradition, but Willhire was nothing like that. Well organised teams, quality drivers (for the most part) and, latterly, run to Group N rules.

Okay cool. Hopefully a renewed interest in budget endurance racing can inspire something similar to Willhire in the future!

[SpudLink]

frodo_monkey said:

Absolutely - we built one at Autosport (ok, we cheated and put in cage mounts etc beforehand). Donor car was less than a grand. Video here:

https://youtu.be/XHlaO2zyH08

That build was featured on Forces TV.

By the way, questionable use of child labour in that video.

[ginettajoe]

frodo_monkey said:

ginettajoe said:

In response to your comment regarding it being an expensive shell, I'm afraid you are obviously looking in the wrong places!! Even it it is £200 more expensive than a Ka shell, you wouldn't be spending valuable time cutting out rust and rebuilding the shell!! The BMW shell is as new when you remove the interior! You obviously didn't read what I explained donor cars can be accessed for!!

Absolutely - we built one at Autosport (ok, we cheated and put in cage mounts etc beforehand). Donor car was less than a grand. Video here:

https://youtu.be/XHlaO2zyH08

........ now if anyone can honestly say that a Ford Ka, or a Citroen C1 look more like a racing car than the 116, there is obviously more strange people in the world than I ever imagined, and that is without even considering the performance differential!!!

[Jerseyhpc]

The best racing I ever had was in a mk1 Astra on the beach over here. As long as what you race against is even and fair, it matters not a jot what it is.

Racing takes over where being flash gets forgotten and there is nothing better.
No, it won’t be thrilling to watch, but this is more about the drivers.

The nice control is that if anyone just pisses off up the track, you know they are cheating( and some will try!)

[Kraken]

That's what makes or breaks a series like this. How strictly the rules are enforced. I know many drivers who have left other one make, so-called strictly controlled series, when other cars have just vanished up the straight and the organisers just shrug their shoulders. Mind you there's always someone who will blueprint and dyno test 10 engines to find the one that has that little bit more.

I hope it works but my personal view is it's going to be like banger racing to start with.

[clubracing]

ginettajoe said:

frodo_monkey said:

ginettajoe said:

In response to your comment regarding it being an expensive shell, I'm afraid you are obviously looking in the wrong places!! Even it it is £200 more expensive than a Ka shell, you wouldn't be spending valuable time cutting out rust and rebuilding the shell!! The BMW shell is as new when you remove the interior! You obviously didn't read what I explained donor cars can be accessed for!!

Absolutely - we built one at Autosport (ok, we cheated and put in cage mounts etc beforehand). Donor car was less than a grand. Video here:

https://youtu.be/XHlaO2zyH08

........ now if anyone can honestly say that a Ford Ka, or a Citroen C1 look more like a racing car than the 116, there is obviously more strange people in the world than I ever imagined, and that is without even considering the performance differential!!!

I don't think anyone would argue that a Ka or C1 is going to be objectively a 'better' racing car than the BMW but the fact is the BMW is significantly more expensive to buy, prepare and run than either of the other two.

For the moment at least the 116 Trophy isn't proper endurance races and it's on multi-class grid with a load of other totally different cars, so there's no point in comparing them anyway.

Seems a bit strange to bang on about the 116 trophy in a thread about the Ka series.

[pidsy]

Sounds like a great way to try motorsport!

Hopefully the rest of PH will get behind the staff and show a decent level of support - it’s good to see that car gurus are allowing stuff like this.