Differences between Noble V6 TT and the common Duratec V6?

Differences between Noble V6 TT and the common Duratec V6?

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Boosted LS1

21,167 posts

259 months

Friday 4th March 2011
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andygtt said:
supports up to 500bhp like that tho so whilst surprising it wasn't exactly a bodge
I've got over that from a 2.9 12v pushrod ford v6.

Boosted LS1

21,167 posts

259 months

Friday 4th March 2011
quotequote all
Mike Tuckwood said:
Scarey huh! :-o
I'll say. It's not exactly an engineering solution is it. No squish or quench etc. If the stock rods are half decent it would have been cheaper to install a set of forged pistons and lower compression that way. Who know's what motivated them? At least they didn't double up on head gaskets.

andygtt

8,344 posts

263 months

Friday 4th March 2011
quotequote all
Boosted LS1 said:
andygtt said:
supports up to 500bhp like that tho so whilst surprising it wasn't exactly a bodge
I've got over that from a 2.9 12v pushrod ford v6.
i bet you do more than fit longer rods to get that

YellowShed

587 posts

282 months

Saturday 5th March 2011
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Boosted LS1 said:
Mike Tuckwood said:
Scarey huh! :-o
I'll say. It's not exactly an engineering solution is it. No squish or quench etc. If the stock rods are half decent it would have been cheaper to install a set of forged pistons and lower compression that way. Who know's what motivated them? At least they didn't double up on head gaskets.
There's the rub, The stock rods went S-shaped when we tried boosting the standard engine to half a bar for the single turbo 300bhp Noble. Rods alone was a cheap solution and it worked well enough. Combustion doesn't seem to be too badly affected. However, we always try and fit the correct length rods and lower the compression with pistons.

YellowShed

Boosted LS1

21,167 posts

259 months

Saturday 5th March 2011
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^ Out of interest, does this engine share any common ancestry to the cologne engines?

Boosted LS1

21,167 posts

259 months

Saturday 5th March 2011
quotequote all
andygtt said:
i bet you do more than fit longer rods to get that
To be fair, yes I did. 'H' beam rods from the US, bowled pistons, a pair of GT28's, 7000 rpm ish and 21 psi.

YellowShed

587 posts

282 months

Saturday 5th March 2011
quotequote all
Boosted LS1 said:
^ Out of interest, does this engine share any common ancestry to the cologne engines?
None at all, AFAIK. It is US developed from a Mazda V6, I believe.

YellowShed

AMG Merc

11,954 posts

252 months

Saturday 5th March 2011
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In connection to the original posted question - exactly what did John Noble Motorsport do to the stock Ford engines to meke them Noble ready?

renrut

Original Poster:

1,478 posts

204 months

Monday 7th March 2011
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So just to recap -

Shorter and stronger rods (spec/part numbers anyone?), definitely necessary for over 300bhp.

T25 turbos.

Intercoolers (obviously).

That's all the mechanical differences.

I'd assume bigger injectors and a remap to suit to finish it off.

So it sounds quite doable assuming I'm prepared to open up the engine and shell out the money.

I need to weigh up the pros/cons of rotrex vs turbo.

mgbond

6,749 posts

231 months

Monday 7th March 2011
quotequote all
renrut said:
So just to recap -

Shorter and stronger rods (spec/part numbers anyone?), definitely necessary for over 300bhp.

T25 turbos.

Intercoolers (obviously).

That's all the mechanical differences.

I'd assume bigger injectors and a remap to suit to finish it off.

So it sounds quite doable assuming I'm prepared to open up the engine and shell out the money.

I need to weigh up the pros/cons of rotrex vs turbo.
Don't forget oil squirters and the extra oil ways as in previous posts

YellowShed

587 posts

282 months

Monday 7th March 2011
quotequote all
renrut said:
So just to recap -

Shorter and stronger rods (spec/part numbers anyone?), definitely necessary for over 300bhp.

T25 turbos.

Intercoolers (obviously).

That's all the mechanical differences.

I'd assume bigger injectors and a remap to suit to finish it off.

So it sounds quite doable assuming I'm prepared to open up the engine and shell out the money.

I need to weigh up the pros/cons of rotrex vs turbo.
Just curious. How are you going to manage all this? The OE ECU won't work with boost, and if you've an auto, good luck on getting that to still change gear when you've played about with the ECU.

It's not trivial.

YellowShed


andrewr

409 posts

197 months

Monday 7th March 2011
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Do the M400 not have Forged Pistons rather than Ford cast items?

renrut

Original Poster:

1,478 posts

204 months

Monday 7th March 2011
quotequote all
YellowShed said:
Just curious. How are you going to manage all this? The OE ECU won't work with boost, and if you've an auto, good luck on getting that to still change gear when you've played about with the ECU.

It's not trivial.

YellowShed
I'm aware its not trivial. My current project could be summed up as 'just drop in a bike engine', something I know to be far far from trivial but the way some people talk you'd think they do it every other weekend. rolleyes

So this is all research at the minute. Not expecting to start anything until next year either. It might turn out to make more sense just to buy an S-Type R but I do so love the involvement of a manual box and having something unique.

Mine's a manual so no worries about the gearbox not wanting to play, however I haven't looked into how much the getrag manual box can take, so it might play for long.

I haven't even started to look into ECU stuff as well but at worst case its standalone management which isn't the end of the world but obviously a lot of extra expense and hassle.

chuntington101

5,733 posts

235 months

Monday 7th March 2011
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very off topic here, but have you not thought about dropping the V8 in there?.... just thinking the jag parts bin/scrappers should be abale to donate a SH!T load of parts you need.... just an idea.

Chris.

chuntington101

5,733 posts

235 months

Monday 7th March 2011
quotequote all
andygtt said:
TuxMan said:
I thought the Jag engine had VVT , so I do wonder if the manifolds will fit ???
yes they do smile

dont think for one moment that they would be an easy fit on our car, believe me I have considered it hard... but with mine reving to nearly 8k Im just not sure I need the extra revs of the Jag head.
Andy, how much benifit do you think the VVT could have on a road going Noble with a similar rev range to yours? I have heard that this VVT stuff is'nt that great when you start to push an engine esp. with aftermarket cams. i know alot of the EVO guys dump it for race builds. THink they only use the EVO9 head (the one with the VVT) because it flows better....

Chris.

Gadgeroonie

5,362 posts

235 months

Monday 7th March 2011
quotequote all
andrewr said:
Do the M400 not have Forged Pistons rather than Ford cast items?
yes

renrut

Original Poster:

1,478 posts

204 months

Tuesday 8th March 2011
quotequote all
chuntington101 said:
very off topic here, but have you not thought about dropping the V8 in there?.... just thinking the jag parts bin/scrappers should be abale to donate a SH!T load of parts you need.... just an idea.

Chris.
Not that far off topic. And yes I've thought about it.

The jag 4.0 V8 is only 40bhp more than the V6, the bigger more powerful engines are a lot more expensive to get hold of. 40bhp is a fair gain but not huge compared to the effort as the V8 only came with the auto box and from what I can tell the engine ecu expects to see the autobox ecu, if it doesn't it won't come out to play.

This is all 3rd hand info btw, so if anyone knows to the contrary I'd be glad to hear about it as it would be the cheapest option for an easy power hike and probably a better base engine to build off.

chuntington101

5,733 posts

235 months

Tuesday 8th March 2011
quotequote all
renrut said:
Not that far off topic. And yes I've thought about it.

The jag 4.0 V8 is only 40bhp more than the V6, the bigger more powerful engines are a lot more expensive to get hold of. 40bhp is a fair gain but not huge compared to the effort as the V8 only came with the auto box and from what I can tell the engine ecu expects to see the autobox ecu, if it doesn't it won't come out to play.

This is all 3rd hand info btw, so if anyone knows to the contrary I'd be glad to hear about it as it would be the cheapest option for an easy power hike and probably a better base engine to build off.
Sorry i have no idea on the jag. What else is the V8 used in? Maybe there is a similar car that will let you rob the ECU aswell? alternatively, maybe the V8 will bolt to the V6 box?

renrut

Original Poster:

1,478 posts

204 months

Wednesday 9th March 2011
quotequote all
chuntington101 said:
renrut said:
Not that far off topic. And yes I've thought about it.

The jag 4.0 V8 is only 40bhp more than the V6, the bigger more powerful engines are a lot more expensive to get hold of. 40bhp is a fair gain but not huge compared to the effort as the V8 only came with the auto box and from what I can tell the engine ecu expects to see the autobox ecu, if it doesn't it won't come out to play.

This is all 3rd hand info btw, so if anyone knows to the contrary I'd be glad to hear about it as it would be the cheapest option for an easy power hike and probably a better base engine to build off.
Sorry i have no idea on the jag. What else is the V8 used in? Maybe there is a similar car that will let you rob the ECU aswell? alternatively, maybe the V8 will bolt to the V6 box?
If I was to put the jag V8 in I'd like to reuse the existing manual box if I could. I don't know of any manual box cars that use the AJV8 engine so robbing an ECU or box from them isn't really an option. I know it was used in the Disco and the Range Rover but as far as I'm aware they were only autos as well. I know theres a place doing a manual conversion on XK8s so there probably is a way around it but it's not clear from their blurb if they reuse the jaguar ecu or go standalone.

I guess it comes down to smiles per pound. I've gotta look into the numbers really. I can buy an S-type R for £5-6K which will give 400bhp out the box, only marginally less mpg, but get stung for road tax (my jag is an X reg). And then its a question of if I'd get on with the auto box.

chuntington101

5,733 posts

235 months

Wednesday 9th March 2011
quotequote all
renrut said:
If I was to put the jag V8 in I'd like to reuse the existing manual box if I could. I don't know of any manual box cars that use the AJV8 engine so robbing an ECU or box from them isn't really an option. I know it was used in the Disco and the Range Rover but as far as I'm aware they were only autos as well. I know theres a place doing a manual conversion on XK8s so there probably is a way around it but it's not clear from their blurb if they reuse the jaguar ecu or go standalone.

I guess it comes down to smiles per pound. I've gotta look into the numbers really. I can buy an S-type R for £5-6K which will give 400bhp out the box, only marginally less mpg, but get stung for road tax (my jag is an X reg). And then its a question of if I'd get on with the auto box.
I have heard of the Jag 4.0 being bolted to a T56 gearbox. This was in a race/trackday jag XK though. He deff ran a standalone. Has anyone craked the Jag software for these V8s? Im guessing there is a way to get them to run without the auto being attached.

Anotehr alternative might be to see if you can get a manual valve bodie for the Auto. This would turn it into a manual trans but you would still have the torque convertor. I have seenthis used in a very intresting track car but cant add much more ifno on it. Dont even know what Auto box the jag uses! sorry im not much help here. lol

Like you said it might be cheaper to turbo the current engine. Might be wrth having a word with Tux, Andy or BoostedLS! on here and see if they cna help/recomend anyone to get the V6 built. Im guessign you would only REALLY need forged rods and pistons. These are problably off the self from someone like Mountue.

As for a place to mount the turbos, it MIGHT (and thats a BIG might) be worth having a look at where these guys mount the turbos on the Corvette.

http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=APS%20C...

Alot of companies are mounting the turbos low down where the front cats normally sit. IF you are only looking at squezing in small turbos (say T28s) then there might be enough room down low. There might even be enough room to use the stock manifolds! This dose however mean that additionally to ALL the other bit you would need you will also need an external oil pump to scav the turbos oil. There have been problems with these but i think they are getting better.

Keep us posted anyway.

THanks,

Chris.