Model X after 2 years and 28k.

[gangzoom]

Wingo said:

How has the car faired at holiday/trip time. Any long distance journeys done at home or abroad?

Holiday/trip time can mean up to 500 miles in a day for us or very rarely 850 miles in one day fully loaded up with clutter and two mountain bikes on a bike carrier.

Our usage isnt that heavy, longest one day trip was 300 miles. The driving/comfort is fine, but clearly 850 miles in a day needs stops.

The website below gives you an idea how long charging stops are needed for a 850 mile one day trip.

Thats some driving though, even at a non stop 85mph thats 10hr, average 70mph and 12hrs.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com

Edited by gangzoom on Tuesday 3rd September 06:17

[gangzoom]

simonwhite2000 said:

Also they 'stole' some range by one of these updates recently - bit like Ford coming round and swapping your fuel tank out for a smaller one. Its no longer what your purchased - have you been impacted by this?

Not yet but in future who knows.

What Tesla has recently done with reducing the usable kWh on some 85pack cars show how little real world data there is on lithium ion battery ageing for cars.

Anyone buying an EV should be under no illusions about the 'risk' they are taking with the newer tech.

I woudlnt go back to a combustion car but that doesn't mean EVs are for everyone.

If you want cheap, reliable, well tested motoring Tesla isn't the car for you, a sub £10k Nissan Leaf is a much better buy.....However with a real life Mway range of sub 50 miles in winter when new, so close to sub 40 miles after battery degredation the smaller range EVs really are only good for inner city use!

[Evanivitch]

simonwhite2000 said:

updates recently - bit like Ford coming round and swapping your fuel tank out for a smaller one. Its no longer what your purchased - have you been impacted by this?

Didn't VW do the similar with the emissions fix? Many certainly report reduced MPG.

[Heres Johnny]

gangzoom said:

Not yet but in future who knows.

What Tesla has recently done with reducing the usable kWh on some 85pack cars show how little real world data there is on lithium ion battery ageing for cars.

Anyone buying an EV should be under no illusions about the 'risk' they are taking with the newer tech.

I woudlnt go back to a combustion car but that doesn't mean EVs are for everyone.

If you want cheap, reliable, well tested motoring Tesla isn't the car for you, a sub £10k Nissan Leaf is a much better buy.....However with a real life Mway range of sub 50 miles in winter when new, so close to sub 40 miles after battery degredation the smaller range EVs really are only good for inner city use!

A first generation leaf isn’t the best example. If I was recommending a car to the ensure but wanted to take the first step I’d say head to a bmw i3, a 94ah Rex can be had for £17k, a 120+ mile battery range and a mini petrol generator on board to charge the battery if you get caught out. No real range anxiety but can typically be used in EV mode 99% most days.

[gangzoom]

Heres Johnny said:

A first generation leaf isn’t the best example. If I was recommending a car to the ensure but wanted to take the first step I’d say head to a bmw i3, a 94ah Rex can be had for £17k, a 120+ mile battery range and a mini petrol generator on board to charge the battery if you get caught out. No real range anxiety but can typically be used in EV mode 99% most days.

£17k is alot more than £8k which is what you can get a Leaf ok for now. Most people don't have £17k to waste on a town run around, even £8k is pushing it. Tesla prices even Model 3, is totally nuts to waste on any car for most people.

What we really need is for the like of Nissan to bring back the old £200/month no deposit deals.

Edited by gangzoom on Tuesday 3rd September 07:29

[gangzoom]

Evanivitch said:

Didn't VW do the similar with the emissions fix? Many certainly report reduced MPG.

I suppose your right!

[Heres Johnny]

gangzoom said:

Heres Johnny said:

A first generation leaf isn’t the best example. If I was recommending a car to the ensure but wanted to take the first step I’d say head to a bmw i3, a 94ah Rex can be had for £17k, a 120+ mile battery range and a mini petrol generator on board to charge the battery if you get caught out. No real range anxiety but can typically be used in EV mode 99% most days.

£17k is alot more than £8k which is what you can get a Leaf ok for now. Most people don't have £17k to waste on a town run around, even £8k is pushing it. Tesla prices even Model 3, is totally nuts to waste on any car for most people.

What we really need is for the like of Nissan to bring back the old £200/month no deposit deals.

Edited by gangzoom on Tuesday 3rd September 07:29

A leaf with a sub 50 mile range isn’t a car for 99.9999% of people. That’s a working range of more like 40 miles as you’d not want to arrive anywhere with less than 5-10 miles and a single public charger failure could leave you with insufficient range to get anywhere

Edited by Heres Johnny on Tuesday 3rd September 08:09

[RobDickinson]

Problem with smaller pack cars is they just get thrashed.

High C for power use, large discharge cycles and full charges, more frequent fast charges etc

The i3 does look to be coping well though

[jjwilde]

Heres Johnny said:

A leaf with a sub 50 mile range isn’t a car for 99.9999% of people. That’s a working range of more like 40 miles as you’d not want to arrive anywhere with less than 5-10 miles and a single public charger failure could leave you with insufficient range to get anywhere

Edited by Heres Johnny on Tuesday 3rd September 08:09

As a second car for communing though it does work. That's probably what drove the prices way back up from how low they got a couple of years ago (£4k-ish).

[anonymous-user]

I know a few people who bought Japan-made Leafs with 8 or 9 bars left (out of 12) on the battery, just for commuting. One just sold his for what he paid for it a year ago.

A year of commuting for the price of the electricity (and even some of that was provided by his work) sounds pretty good.

[xjay1337]

gangzoom said:

Our usage isnt that heavy, longest one day trip was 300 miles. The driving/comfort is fine, but clearly 850 miles in a day needs stops.

The website below gives you an idea how long charging stops are needed for a 850 mile one day trip.

Thats some driving though, even at a non stop 85mph thats 10hr, average 70mph and 12hrs.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com

Edited by gangzoom on Tuesday 3rd September 06:17

Interesting

And also disheartening

I'm going from near Swindon to South Wales (Near cardiff) almost daily and have been for several weeks.

If i had an EGolf which 36kwh which is the kind of electric car people may actually buy, assuming I am fully charged when I start I would still need to stop for nearly 40 minutes on the return leg.

40 minutes per day adds up as I'm sure you can appreciate is a lot.

I also ran this with an Ioniq EV and it says I would have to do 56mph maximum the whole way to avoid having to charge!

While a Tesla could make the 160 mile (roughly) round trp with ease it's obvious that there is not sufficient technology in "smaller" cars to comfortably do such journey.
While I do appreciate this is not "in line with the average", lots of people do lots of miles for work and I can only imagine the queues at these chargers should say 60 or 70% of the motoring public decide to use EVs. So you may end up needing to wait 40 minutes to then charge for 40 minutes.

This is what my issue with electric cars, unfortunately the only cars that "make sense" in terms of range and the supercharging functionality are outside the affordability range for many people. I am a relatively high earner and I could not afford a Tesla! :-(

Edited by xjay1337 on Tuesday 3rd September 19:21

[anonymous-user]

xjay1337 said:

While a Tesla could make the 160 mile (roughly) round trp with ease it's obvious that there is not sufficient technology in "smaller" cars to comfortably do such journey.

Leaf 62, eNiro or Kona could easily do that without charging.

Leaf 40 could do it if you kept the speed down, or stopped for a 10 minute charge.

If you have destination charging then even an old Leaf 24 could do it. I used to regularly do a 130 mile round trip in a Leaf 24 with 2-3 hours of destination charging.

[Heres Johnny]

kuro68k said:

I know a few people who bought Japan-made Leafs with 8 or 9 bars left (out of 12) on the battery, just for commuting. One just sold his for what he paid for it a year ago.

A year of commuting for the price of the electricity (and even some of that was provided by his work) sounds pretty good.

I’d argue that’s not so much a car, it’s more a means to a very specific end

[Fat Wolfie]

Thanks @gangzoom for a very interesting thread.

I drove a Model 3 recently and have changed from being a sceptic to a convert, but don’t plan to change yet as what I really want is an estate version of the 3, although maybe Y will suit when they come out. Estate is needed to dog carriage, and I feel the X is too expensive for my pocket.

But what was more interesting is the route planner, I envisage hours of fun!

I regularly do a 205 mile trip to south west Scotland and was concerned about potential range. However planning the trip with a standard range RWD Model 3, setting off with 90% charge, I would need a 5 minute recharge (taking it from 33% to 53% charge) en route, and I could get to the destination with 13% left. This is using a normal (not Tesla) charger.

As we always stop for 20 mins at the services where the charger was located this won’t be a problem at all.

The route showed speed at 70 mph on the motorway section and 60 mph on the A65 and A 75 - very unlikely to reach those dizzy heights on those roads though!

There’s certainly plenty of food for thought here...

[Evanivitch]

xjay1337 said:

Interesting

And also disheartening

I'm going from near Swindon to South Wales (Near cardiff) almost daily and have been for several weeks.

If i had an EGolf which 36kwh which is the kind of electric car people may actually buy, assuming I am fully charged when I start I would still need to stop for nearly 40 minutes on the return leg.

40 minutes per day adds up as I'm sure you can appreciate is a lot.

I also ran this with an Ioniq hybrid and it says I would have to do 56mph maximum the whole way to avoid having to charge!

While a Tesla could make the 160 mile (roughly) round trp with ease it's obvious that there is not sufficient technology in "smaller" cars to comfortably do such journey.
While I do appreciate this is not "in line with the average", lots of people do lots of miles for work and I can only imagine the queues at these chargers should say 60 or 70% of the motoring public decide to use EVs. So you may end up needing to wait 40 minutes to then charge for 40 minutes.

This is what my issue with electric cars, unfortunately the only cars that "make sense" in terms of range and the supercharging functionality are outside the affordability range for many people. I am a relatively high earner and I could not afford a Tesla! :-(

None of that makes sense.

The eGolf is comparatively poor selling and has one of the smaller batteries on the market (despite a recent update).

An Ioniq Hybrid doesn't need charging.

Charging infrastructure will grow with demand, and is already growing rapidly with a very small demand.

Second hand Zoe40 can be had for decent money and would meet most commuting needs. Newer 50 kWh cars will cover even your needs for approx £20k brand new. That's cheaper than the average UK car.

[xjay1337]

Evanivitch said:

xjay1337 said:

Interesting

And also disheartening

I'm going from near Swindon to South Wales (Near cardiff) almost daily and have been for several weeks.

If i had an EGolf which 36kwh which is the kind of electric car people may actually buy, assuming I am fully charged when I start I would still need to stop for nearly 40 minutes on the return leg.

40 minutes per day adds up as I'm sure you can appreciate is a lot.

I also ran this with an Ioniq hybrid and it says I would have to do 56mph maximum the whole way to avoid having to charge!

While a Tesla could make the 160 mile (roughly) round trp with ease it's obvious that there is not sufficient technology in "smaller" cars to comfortably do such journey.
While I do appreciate this is not "in line with the average", lots of people do lots of miles for work and I can only imagine the queues at these chargers should say 60 or 70% of the motoring public decide to use EVs. So you may end up needing to wait 40 minutes to then charge for 40 minutes.

This is what my issue with electric cars, unfortunately the only cars that "make sense" in terms of range and the supercharging functionality are outside the affordability range for many people. I am a relatively high earner and I could not afford a Tesla! :-(

None of that makes sense.

The eGolf is comparatively poor selling and has one of the smaller batteries on the market (despite a recent update).

An Ioniq Hybrid doesn't need charging.

Charging infrastructure will grow with demand, and is already growing rapidly with a very small demand.

Second hand Zoe40 can be had for decent money and would meet most commuting needs. Newer 50 kWh cars will cover even your needs for approx £20k brand new. That's cheaper than the average UK car.

Feels like that is a bit harsh to cast my entire post as nonsensical. I feel I made some fair points. I acknowledged my current commute is not the "average" but is far from unheard of (with regards to the "most commuting needs" comment).

I am not an EV expert.
I used the default settings on the linked traffic planner on my current commute based upon cars that I would actually consider buying.

I've checked using the Kona and it would make it, but I don't want or need a larger SUV type vehicle, certainly being an EV it would be restricted to more like the role of a "daily car" and as such being a bit smaller would be beneficial.

I am specifically avoiding hybrid, we are talking about pure EV. My M135i wouldn't need charging either, but it's not a comparable car in this discussion in the same way that the Ioniq Hybrid isn't. .


5 years ago I was completely anti EV but now I can see with improvements to range they are more viable as solutions for transport especially around town environments and shorter commutes. I still don't personally believe an EV is suitable for long distance high speed driving and without major improvements, I can't see how it would be in the future so I would always be the view that it would be a second car in a typical 2 adult / 2 car household.

[Heres Johnny]

Fat Wolfie said:

Thanks @gangzoom for a very interesting thread.

I drove a Model 3 recently and have changed from being a sceptic to a convert, but don’t plan to change yet as what I really want is an estate version of the 3, although maybe Y will suit when they come out. Estate is needed to dog carriage, and I feel the X is too expensive for my pocket.

But what was more interesting is the route planner, I envisage hours of fun!

I regularly do a 205 mile trip to south west Scotland and was concerned about potential range. However planning the trip with a standard range RWD Model 3, setting off with 90% charge, I would need a 5 minute recharge (taking it from 33% to 53% charge) en route, and I could get to the destination with 13% left. This is using a normal (not Tesla) charger.

As we always stop for 20 mins at the services where the charger was located this won’t be a problem at all.

The route showed speed at 70 mph on the motorway section and 60 mph on the A65 and A 75 - very unlikely to reach those dizzy heights on those roads though!

There’s certainly plenty of food for thought here...

You think you'll add 20% in 5 mins using a normal charger?

Its a side point if you're stopping for 20 mins anyway but all but superchargers and some of the new (but still rare) 100kw+ rapids are going to to help and 20% is around 15kwh and at 100kw thats at best 10 mins.

[Fat Wolfie]

Heres Johnny said:

You think you'll add 20% in 5 mins using a normal charger?

Its a side point if you're stopping for 20 mins anyway but all but superchargers and some of the new (but still rare) 100kw+ rapids are going to to help and 20% is around 15kwh and at 100kw thats at best 10 mins.

I’ve no idea if you’re right or wrong, I just restated what the Better Route thingy said.

If I’m honest I was surprised at the short time is said - but also found it enlightening as in my head I’d always kind of assumed I’d be topping up to 100% when plugged in, just as I do in the car (I.e. always go to full when I stop for fuel even if I don’t need a full tank to get to my destination).

I suppose it’s a mindset change to go through that you don’t always need a “full tank” in the battery when you stop.

[Daaaveee]

xjay1337 said:

I've checked using the Kona and it would make it, but I don't want or need a larger SUV type vehicle, certainly being an EV it would be restricted to more like the role of a "daily car" and as such being a bit smaller would be beneficial.

Have you seen a Kona in person? They are not large cars at all, neither is the Niro.

xjay1337 said:

5 years ago I was completely anti EV but now I can see with improvements to range they are more viable as solutions for transport especially around town environments and shorter commutes. I still don't personally believe an EV is suitable for long distance high speed driving and without major improvements, I can't see how it would be in the future so I would always be the view that it would be a second car in a typical 2 adult / 2 car household.

There are some EVs that are suitable for long distance and high speed driving already, Teslas, iPace, eTron, latest Leaf, Kona, Niro... with plenty more due in the next 1 to 2 years. I mean if you don't stop after 3 hours of driving, fair enough, but in reality its not a big deal to factor in a stop on a long distance trip like most normal people do.

Then you have all the 'small battery' cars. I have a 2019 i3 which will happily sit at motorway speeds for 2 hours before being empty, and I'm happy to stretch my legs after then anyway, and this is with a relatively small 38kwh usable battery! Not bad for a city car

[Wingo]

gangzoom said:

Our usage isnt that heavy, longest one day trip was 300 miles. The driving/comfort is fine, but clearly 850 miles in a day needs stops.

The website below gives you an idea how long charging stops are needed for a 850 mile one day trip.

Thats some driving though, even at a non stop 85mph thats 10hr, average 70mph and 12hrs.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com

Edited by gangzoom on Tuesday 3rd September 06:17

Thanks, that link to the planner is very useful. Using a middle of the road model X and tesla superchargers 3 hours and 25 mins stop time in the 850 mile day, making the journey time 17 hours 36 mins on the planner.

This year we did the 850 mile trip in 14 hours, sharing the driving, one rest as we went through the Eurotunnel, one stop for fuel, food and drink and one more stop for food and drink.
No one moaned, we saved an overnight halt, got to our holiday destination over half a day earlier and got a lie in on the day of arrival rather than have to get up and complete the journey.

We usually do an overnight halt but for a few years now when we get to the halt we always say another four or five hours and we could be at our destination so this year we went for it.

All done in the handbrakes French diseasal estate car that was six months old and £11k when we bought it a few years ago.

There is no doubt the Teslas and other EVs can do irregular, one off road trips or big miles but I'm not sure I'm ready to put up with the lengthy refueling/recharging halts just yet. Not sure I could afford to buy a model X either, way over my usual budget for the family car.

We regularly see a few Dutch registered Teslas up in the French/Swiss mountains and quite a few hotels in the towns and villages have tesla chargers now. Not to mention the e bikes that are everywhere now!! (We still rely on gravity for downhilling and the leccy powered lifts to get back up!!)

Thanks again for the insight and useful link, a mate who has an EV already as his family car will be interested in the link.

Wingo.