Alternator & Fuel pump failures

Alternator & Fuel pump failures

Author
Discussion

Martyn P

153 posts

75 months

Friday 2nd December 2022
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Also, for electrical specialists, is it possible that the batteries fitted to our cars are insufficently robust leading to excessive electrical demand causing failure of the alternator and starter motor?

This would perhaps also explain why some owners report batteries seem to drain quickly / require trickle charge over short periods of time.

I assume battery / alternator / starter are all interconnected - if there is a weak link in the chain they all suffer?

Holgate86

464 posts

39 months

Saturday 3rd December 2022
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Really the alternator and dc rectification circuits are the top level when it comes to car electrical systems.

If the rectified voltage from the alternator is too low the battery won't be charged sufficiently, however failure of a cell in a battery can also drag the voltage down too. Most systems on a car will operate over a range of voltages, but the battery needs to see probs around 13.5 to 14 volts to charge successfully.

When the car is running, basically the battery is doing nothing except being charged (and acting as a smoothing capacitor), however when you start the car the battery is "king" supplying large current to the starter motor and still holding up the voltage to critical elements like the ECU, fuel pump and HT systems for the means to start the car. In "olden" days if you had a dirty earth connection around the battery/starter the current through the connection would pull the voltage down meaning the car wouldn't fire.

In most cars today if the alternator (and rectifier) dies, the car dies pretty quickly too, modern car have so many electronic systems and nearly every car has EPAS, electric high pressure fuel pumps, ABS, Sat Nav etc etc so the poor old battery on its own has pretty much no chance.

a110au

270 posts

50 months

Sunday 4th December 2022
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Martyn P said:
This would perhaps also explain why some owners report batteries seem to drain quickly / require trickle charge over short periods of time.
There is a French(?) YouTube guy who is very reliable with this A110 mods and subtitles his videos in English as well.

He was showing off the results of installing the (horrendously expensive) LiteBlox battery which includes an app to show SOC and drain etc. He noted that the car has a lot of parasitic drain if it is not locked, and the fans that run after a drive suck a lot of power out. He can leave his car (locked) for a couple of weeks before the Lithium battery is down to a percentage that really suggests a drive is needed.

He also disconnected the sensor so the battery charge stop/start is disabled and it always supplies 14v while the engine is running.

Apart from the notes above he has been happy with his mod and hasn't noticed any special issues.

worldwidewebs

2,313 posts

249 months

Sunday 4th December 2022
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a110au said:
There is a French(?) YouTube guy who is very reliable with this A110 mods and subtitles his videos in English as well.
Do you have a link please?

Portti

183 posts

34 months

Sunday 4th December 2022
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worldwidewebs said:
Do you have a link please?
Perhaps this? (Although it's Italian, not French)



worldwidewebs

2,313 posts

249 months

Sunday 4th December 2022
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Cheers

a110au

270 posts

50 months

Tuesday 6th December 2022
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Portti said:
Perhaps this? (Although it's Italian, not French)

https://youtu.be/E-V2wUC0DQ8
Yep spiacenteu to Fede22

Martyn P

153 posts

75 months

Wednesday 28th December 2022
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a110au said:
There is a French(?) YouTube guy who is very reliable with this A110 mods and subtitles his videos in English as well.

He was showing off the results of installing the (horrendously expensive) LiteBlox battery which includes an app to show SOC and drain etc. He noted that the car has a lot of parasitic drain if it is not locked, and the fans that run after a drive suck a lot of power out. He can leave his car (locked) for a couple of weeks before the Lithium battery is down to a percentage that really suggests a drive is needed.
It was interesting that he also stated his original battery was faulty and it was replaced - which is what happened to mine.
Since my battery change I have had no starting troubles even during the very cold weather, so seems this was my problem rather than alternator or starter (touch wood).

Perhaps add faulty battery to the title of this thread!

Whaleblue

338 posts

87 months

Wednesday 28th December 2022
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This might be a dumb question, but is it likely now the case that alternator, fuel pump and battery issues have been ironed out such that cars being made now will have far less likelihood of issues?

(Yes, I’ve a car on order that I think will be on the production line later in January).

a110au

270 posts

50 months

Monday 2nd January 2023
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the fuel pump issue may have happened to me today.

after driving normally for a couple of hours highway speed, stopped to park and started it again after a minute.. Notice appears about injectors and spanner icon and it ran rough, managed to move it 30 yards to a better place idle got worse, turned it off and tried to start again -- it was trying to start but basically all the errors appeared, including parking brake and "engine hazard" probably from voltage brownout while it was turning over but not starting, got it started for 10 seconds but it wasnt happy idling, and any gas pedal made things worse.

so either fuel pump has partly failed or fuel has gone bad (suddenly, as it drank a quarter tank without issue)

of course my roadside assistance AND warranty has lapsed 3 days ago.
roadside assist were unimpressed with my plea about expiry and want to charge an extra fee to renew PLUS call them. They would send someone "to try to fix it" then order a tow truck to "nearest Renault dealer" (which probably has never seen an Alpine anyway).
I'm electing to pay for my own flatbed to main dealer and will argue warranty and towing fee with them.

Already disappointed there was no pro-active recall on all fuel pumps (and/or alternators) it isn't safe to wait for a failure then replace them.
It could have happened in any number of highly unsafe spots on this trip.

Edited by a110au on Monday 2nd January 01:05


Edited by a110au on Monday 2nd January 01:06

worldwidewebs

2,313 posts

249 months

Monday 2nd January 2023
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Whaleblue said:
This might be a dumb question, but is it likely now the case that alternator, fuel pump and battery issues have been ironed out such that cars being made now will have far less likelihood of issues?

(Yes, I’ve a car on order that I think will be on the production line later in January).
I've not heard of any of the MY22 cars having batter/alternator issues and I think these are relatively rare now so I wouldn't be concerned about it. There was a new fuel pump issued in October/November. When I had mine fitted, the tech explained the issue so I would assume they should be on top of it by now. Again, you should be fine

worldwidewebs

2,313 posts

249 months

Monday 2nd January 2023
quotequote all
a110au said:
the fuel pump issue may have happened to me today.

after driving normally for a couple of hours highway speed, stopped to park and started it again after a minute.. Notice appears about injectors and spanner icon and it ran rough, managed to move it 30 yards to a better place idle got worse, turned it off and tried to start again -- it was trying to start but basically all the errors appeared, including parking brake and "engine hazard" probably from voltage brownout while it was turning over but not starting, got it started for 10 seconds but it wasnt happy idling, and any gas pedal made things worse.

so either fuel pump has partly failed or fuel has gone bad (suddenly, as it drank a quarter tank without issue)

of course my roadside assistance AND warranty has lapsed 3 days ago.
roadside assist were unimpressed with my plea about expiry and want to charge an extra fee to renew PLUS call them. They would send someone "to try to fix it" then order a tow truck to "nearest Renault dealer" (which probably has never seen an Alpine anyway).
I'm electing to pay for my own flatbed to main dealer and will argue warranty and towing fee with them.

Already disappointed there was no pro-active recall on all fuel pumps (and/or alternators) it isn't safe to wait for a failure then replace them.
It could have happened in any number of highly unsafe spots on this trip.

Edited by a110au on Monday 2nd January 01:05


Edited by a110au on Monday 2nd January 01:06
I didn't have those errors on my dash when mine failed so it could be something other than fuel pump.

If you do get recovered, get them to take it to Alpine - it's an Alpine, not a Renault

a110au

270 posts

50 months

Monday 2nd January 2023
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in australia renault dealers are the ones dealing with alpine service there are no alpine dealers. never were, really. they just borrowed showroom space.

nevertheless alpine assist was pretty hopeless and so for less cost than the fine for renewing plus calling on the same day, am renting a flatbed and going to move it to the local renault/alpine place that did the last service.

on page 1 in this topic injector error messages are mentioned in the list of fb group and french forum fuel pump fails, so I still think its likely the pump. Almost no fuel is getting into the injectors and the error covers all kinds of fuel system problems.

I don't think its alternator as battery is healthy - it cranks fast. anyway whatever the shop says, will pass on. I am damned if I pay for this repair tho. warranty expiry or no.

worldwidewebs

2,313 posts

249 months

Monday 2nd January 2023
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Fingers crossed you get it sorted. I'd agree you shouldn't be paying for it and I'd also be trying to get Alpine to pay for the recovery costs

Whaleblue

338 posts

87 months

Monday 2nd January 2023
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@a110au best of luck with your fix/claim.

@worldwidewebs, thanks for the information. Hopefully they’ll be as reliable as any other car generally speaking.

a110au

270 posts

50 months

Tuesday 3rd January 2023
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.

Edited by a110au on Tuesday 3rd January 05:09

a110au

270 posts

50 months

Wednesday 4th January 2023
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updates!

so the battery if it was good before is tired now from various restart attempts (disconnected before) it read 12.2 disconnected and 11.8 when connected under parasitic draw from all the systems. It could still crank car tho.

however jumped with a running car at 13.5v still no go: the car will start and it will run for 10 seconds then die on idle with
gearbox failure hazard, engine hazard, check stop start, hill start assist error, park brake error, big yellow spanner and so on.

now came the difficult part: to convince it to go into neutral and parking brake off..

manual says procedure is to turn ignition on but not start car then stab brake and N button at same time (with door closed). This didnt work from the error condition, so had to push stop and shut door as if I am leaving so dash clears, then get in and do this,
But park brake is on.
It needs to come off too so so do that not forgetting to use foot on brake pedal.. then it is flashing red park brake off and engage P.
At that point I got out and pulled the battery connection.
now finally it can roll.

next problem: tow hook at front is only tug point. So because of its particular position, I may have to get it winched up onto tilt tray by rear wishbone mount
unless someone has a better attach point?

Whaleblue

338 posts

87 months

Wednesday 4th January 2023
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@a110au - be careful - the online manual I’ve seen states:

“Only use the front towing point 2.(never use the drive shafts or any other part of the vehicle).This towing point may only be used for pulling. It must never be used for liftingthe vehicle directly or indirectly”

The text refers to a diagram.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/2380652/Alpine-A...

a110au

270 posts

50 months

Wednesday 4th January 2023
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yeah I read that.
makes sense

but unfortunately the way things are, parked nose in on a downslope, with difficult access, pulling it v slowly, 20m uphill to a flat place where it can be loaded onto tray by nose hook is best option I have.

If I make renault roadside assist do it they will verify its dead, call joes random towing, and some bloke will turn up and chuck a hook under it on first place he sees, tug it up a 30 degree tilt tray, and cart it off to nearest holding yard. Yeah they are then responsible for damage but I would rather not see that happen.

Whaleblue

338 posts

87 months

Thursday 5th January 2023
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Yup, tricky! Hope it gets sorted well for you.