KITCAR TRENDS YEAR 2008

KITCAR TRENDS YEAR 2008

Author
Discussion

feet

135 posts

239 months

Thursday 29th July 2004
quotequote all
Probably loads more 7s. Just use BMWs instead of sierras - there are millions of beemers about today, ready for when the sierra bits finally run out.

tigerk

4,285 posts

255 months

Thursday 29th July 2004
quotequote all
feet said:
Probably loads more 7s. Just use BMWs instead of sierras - there are millions of beemers about today, ready for when the sierra bits finally run out


You beat me to that one. Makes me wonder why more firms haven't switched to Bimmer donors. AFAIK Marlin (and RV Dynamics Cobra) are the only cars which use these by design. I guess the older BMWs are still seen as worth preserving, whereas a Sierra of the same age is seen as scrapheap fodder. Whether people will feel the same about a 1990s BMW in a few years is another matter. (I think probably not)

Does anyone know of a reason why a 3 (or 5) series BMW makes a less suitable donor than a Sierra? Other than potential cost?

peetbee

1,036 posts

254 months

Thursday 29th July 2004
quotequote all
The only thing I can see against the beemers makign good donors for 7's is that the straight 6 makes a pinto look svelte! Despite the extra power getting the balance right would be challenging for such a light car. Better for larger vehicles though.
The bmw 4 cylinder models would probably be ok though.


>> Edited by peetbee to fix spelling after TigerK was so kind to me!

>> Edited by peetbee on Thursday 29th July 08:52

tigerk

4,285 posts

255 months

Thursday 29th July 2004
quotequote all
peetbee said:
The only ting


What sort of rap speak is that peetbee. You'll be saying that a BMW powered seven would be well wikkid next!

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 29th July 2004
quotequote all
tigerk said:
Does anyone know of a reason why a 3 (or 5) series BMW makes a less suitable donor than a Sierra? Other than potential cost?


My guess would be that an E21 or E30 would probably be alright as a donor car, but if you start moving through the E36 and especially to the E46 you'll start running into problems with the electronics. Unless you're only planning on using the mechanical parts (diff, prop shafts, brakes, etc.) and nothing with too much electronic interference, or you're willing to start playing with aftermarket injection, etc.

Something I was reading re microcontrollers recently stated that a typical BMW these days contains 70+ microcontroller chips along with associated programming and supporting circuits.

Meeja said:
Will there be an online build diary?!

Knowing your programming knowledge and the digital camera you have access to I am expecting something rather flash.....

Not sure about it to be honest. I wasn't planning on it. I've got enough on my plate with work, a customer site in development, the kit, maintaining the daily driver and all the other hairbrain schemes I keep coming up with - microcontroller controlled composites oven with vacuum bag consolidation anyone?

But, I'll be taking loads of photos so if there turns out to be any interest, I'll be able to throw something together

>> Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 29th July 09:35

meeja

8,289 posts

247 months

Thursday 29th July 2004
quotequote all

I said:
Will there be an online build diary?!

Then,
LexSport said:

I'll be taking loads of photos so if there turns out to be any interest, I'll be able to throw something together


Is the correct answer.....

Ex-Biker

1,315 posts

246 months

Thursday 29th July 2004
quotequote all
tigerk said:
My guess would be that an E21 or E30 would probably be alright as a donor car, but if you start moving through the E36 and especially to the E46 you'll start running into problems with the electronics. Unless you're only planning on using the mechanical parts (diff, prop shafts, brakes, etc.) and nothing with too much electronic interference, or you're willing to start playing with aftermarket injection, etc.


That will be the biggest problem for future development of kits.

Costs will have to go up if we use modern engines as electronic control systems will need to be replaced.

Then you get to the stage where a good secondhand Elise will be much better value.

spartan_andy

645 posts

246 months

Thursday 29th July 2004
quotequote all
It's going to get to a point where things revert to how the industry was in the first place i.e. a gearbox from here suspension from there engine from somewhere else and the Q plate will be back with a vengance

fuoriserie

Original Poster:

4,560 posts

268 months

Thursday 29th July 2004
quotequote all
What is a Q-plate?

Ex-Biker

1,315 posts

246 months

Thursday 29th July 2004
quotequote all
Q-plate: Of questionable registration.?!#

Italo
A Q registration plate is issued when the DVLA (government) can't age relate the vehicle.

Our regitration numbers normally relate to the age of the car. Not sure yours do. I know German ones relate to the town the owner lives.

meeja

8,289 posts

247 months

Thursday 29th July 2004
quotequote all
Ex-Biker said:
Q-plate: Of questionable registration.?!#

Italo
A Q registration plate is issued when the DVLA (government) can't age relate the vehicle.


Also has a certain stigma attached for some people.

fuoriserie

Original Poster:

4,560 posts

268 months

Thursday 29th July 2004
quotequote all
We have the same system the Germans use, its town related.

If you live in Milan, your plate will show the initials of the city and some random numbers.

vojx

271 posts

241 months

Friday 30th July 2004
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sevens and cobras will continue to dominate cos its always easier to jump on a bandwagon than to do something original (IMO)

>> Edited by vojx on Monday 2nd August 11:00

900T-R

20,404 posts

256 months

Friday 30th July 2004
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I'd say a mid-engined car that takes the complete drivetrain from a FWD donor would be most likely to taske over the reign of Sevenesque thingies as a 'volume' kit car design.

IMHO there's enough excellent FWD hot hatches and derivatives thereof at low prices (specially when bought after the initial steep part of the depreciation curve) to make the prospect of a FWD kit car look a little pointless. Having swappable body parts to make it a roadster, coupé, pick-up etc. to distinguish it from mainstream offerings is a nice idea in theory - but how many folks would be bothered anyways? It's been done before, and I can't think of one that wasn't more than slightly compromised in the looks, driving or useability departments.

peetbee

1,036 posts

254 months

Friday 30th July 2004
quotequote all
I think we're already starting to see the arrival of these midengined cars with the Sylva Mojo, Marlin 5exi, Shelsley, Aeon, Quantum sunrunner and others.
There have been a couple of attempts at leaving the engine in the front where it came from with the Jester, Onyx and quantum +2 but they've not really met with that much success so far.

Perhaps once the cheap rear wheel drive donors start getting thin on the ground these designs will become the norm. I certainly hope that the styling continues to improve as some of them have been spectacularly unimpressive on that front.

fuoriserie

Original Poster:

4,560 posts

268 months

Monday 2nd August 2004
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[redacted]

cymtriks

4,560 posts

244 months

Wednesday 4th August 2004
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In no particular order...

The market has been bogged down with endless Seven and Cobra ripoffs for years. What I'd like to see is a bit more originality. Sadly much original styling in the kit car market is dire. IMHO this is why replicas have done so well. They actually look good.

Fit and finish. The kit car industry has improved enormously over the years but I know someone who has had endless silly problems with a well known kit that's been around for years. Most of these problems were related to highly misleading statements along the lines that any combination of drivetrain parts would fit when in fact only a few common ones would. If I was selling a kit I'd list exactly what would fit by part numbers and model types. Must try harder.

A decent chassis design. When will they learn that a duff spaceframe just makes getting in and out harder, makes fitting parts harder, adds cost and is actually heavier than a simple X braced ladder frame for the same stiffness? If you don't know what you're doing don't try to pretend you do. If we are going to be taken seriously in the future then we'll need better chassis for handling, better support for the bodywork and to comply with crash resistance.

Doors. Stop trying to adjust them by shimming the hinge. This is a silly way to do it. I suggest the following method. Rigidly mount the hinges. Adjust the skin of the door on the internal door frame. The frame also forms the crash structure. It is much easier, for example, to adjust the height of a door by adjusting a screw at each end of the door than it is to squeeze in shims under one of the hinges while contorted under the dashboard.

fuoriserie

Original Poster:

4,560 posts

268 months

Wednesday 4th August 2004
quotequote all
Cymtriks

Very good points, and as they say, sometimes the basics are not there.

On the design or styling of the kits, a lot can be said and done, but it all boils down to costs.

Very few are willing to invest in something really different, because if it doesn't succed you are out .

It's easier to invest on a seven clone or cobra replica, they have about 70/75% of the kit market, and you are sure you are going to sell them, than invest money on new kit designs, where they failure rate is pretty high.

I also think that some of the kit manufactures have very little design skills, but good enogh engineering skills to create a decent kitcar. So its best to create a Replica for the design part, and then a chassis fo the engineering.

Fit and finish in most kits has inproved considerably in the past decade, but not quite yet on all counts.

Doors are always going to be difficult to make right, in fact I would try to design kitcars that would not use doors, but cut-away doors and jump in solutions. ( Seven, Ariel Atom, Dax Kamala, and others).

Easier to manufacture and engineer with limited costs.

vojx

271 posts

241 months

Thursday 5th August 2004
quotequote all
cymtriks said:

A decent chassis design. When will they learn that a duff spaceframe just makes getting in and out harder, makes fitting parts harder, adds cost and is actually heavier than a simple X braced ladder frame for the same stiffness? If you don't know what you're doing don't try to pretend you do. If we are going to be taken seriously in the future then we'll need better chassis for handling, better support for the bodywork and to comply with crash resistance.


perhaps i'm just being pedantic, but this reads as if you are advocating the use of ladder frames over spaceframes . i'm no engineer, but to me a good spaceframe is preferable to a good ladder frame when it come to torsional stiffness (a bad frame of either sort should be avoided). well, at least thats one reason why i bought my stratos - should i have bought a cobra or se7en? i think i made the right decision

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 5th August 2004
quotequote all
vojx said:
perhaps i'm just being pedantic, but this reads as if you are advocating the use of ladder frames over spaceframes .
Vojx, take a look at some of cymtriks' previous posts. My understanding of his position is that a good ladder frame chassis is better than a bad spaceframe.

Personally, I'd rather have a lightweight composite monocoque...