KITCAR TRENDS YEAR 2008
Discussion
LexSport said:
Personally, I'd rather have a lightweight composite monocoque...
i'm with you there - just wish i had an oven large enough
with regards good ladder vs poor space frame, miss out the ladder and space frame parts and then it makes obvious sense. BUT i thought he was perhaps intimating that ladders per se were better than spaceframes, in the general way of things, all things being equal, and not talking of Jo Bloggs and his half inch bendy spaceframe versus Dax-etc-pro-know-what-they're-doing company.
did i mention my car is a spaceframe???
Oops
That debate again.
A properly designed, and consequently properly triangulated, spaceframe is stiffer than a properly designed ladder frame of the same weight. If the design warrants the extra cost, complexity and access compromises that come with spaceframes in return for their extra stiffness then that's fine. If you know how to design one then go ahead.
Most kit car spaceframes do not have the right triangulation to get the stiffness advantages. As a result they are actually less stiff for their weight than most ladder frames. Try asking manufactures how stiff their stiff chassis actually are. Most don't seem to know or if they do they aren't telling.
I would certainly suggest that many kit car companies would be better off with a ladder frame simply because getting a ladder frame right is easier and most of them don't get spaceframes right enough to beat an equal weight ladder frame. A ladder frame is usually simpler and cheaper aswell.
That debate again.
A properly designed, and consequently properly triangulated, spaceframe is stiffer than a properly designed ladder frame of the same weight. If the design warrants the extra cost, complexity and access compromises that come with spaceframes in return for their extra stiffness then that's fine. If you know how to design one then go ahead.
Most kit car spaceframes do not have the right triangulation to get the stiffness advantages. As a result they are actually less stiff for their weight than most ladder frames. Try asking manufactures how stiff their stiff chassis actually are. Most don't seem to know or if they do they aren't telling.
I would certainly suggest that many kit car companies would be better off with a ladder frame simply because getting a ladder frame right is easier and most of them don't get spaceframes right enough to beat an equal weight ladder frame. A ladder frame is usually simpler and cheaper aswell.
cymtriks said:
Most kit car spaceframes do not have the right triangulation to get the stiffness advantages. As a result they are actually less stiff for their weight than most ladder frames. Try asking manufactures how stiff their stiff chassis actually are. Most don't seem to know or if they do they aren't telling.
Serious question - How do you measure the stiffness of a chassis?
cymtriks said:
Oops
That debate again.
sorry, but must've missed that one.
when a decent degree of rollover protection is required
, you can quickly get into a spaceframe situation 
, and then to lighten it you can remove the redundant parts of the ladder frame. its horses for courses, but i dont recall seeing anyone rallying a cobra or se7en. the land / range rovers have sort of ladder chasses, so i guess i'll grab my coat and graciously bow out 
>> Edited by vojx on Friday 6th August 16:06
Back on thread.
I reckon that front wheel drive kit cars are always going to be rare. The obvious thing to do with a FWD drive train is to put it in the back and make something like the Libra. Honda Civic Type R. Now there's a thought for a middy.
Bike engined designs will be restricted to track day specials or to extreme road cars. The cost of a bike car has increased as bike breakers realise that they have new customers for their engines. A second gearbox will complicate things and add costs aswell. Always going to be restricted to the more race orientated market IMHO.
Traditional RWD layouts are being squeezed out as supplies dry up. Soon it will be BMW or Mercedes donor cars. For bigger engines I think it will be business as usual. Still plenty to choose from.
Monocoques may gain market share but these work best as coupes where the roof adds a lot of stiffnes. Chop the roof off and you need big sills to compensate. Look at the size of the sills on the Elise or Libra. Nothing wrong with this but while GTM and Lotus get it right I'll bet other companies won't have a clue.
Styling. Oh dear. I reckon that the success of replicas is largely due to styling. The classic designs that they copy look good. A lot of truly ugly kit cars have come and gone over the years. Why not take some ideas from concept cars. What is wrong with traditional styling anyway? TVR have made the retro/trad look up to date and exciting. The Caterham 21 looked good to. (What happened to this one? Has anyone got the moulds?)
There are many markets totally ignored by kits. Golf carts, invalid cars, city cars etc may not be exciting but they could fit well into what kit car companies do and help put them on a better financial footing. There must be dozens of niches to fill that are completely empty now. I once spoke to a disabled person who hated all invalid car designs. He had some good points too. Have you ever wondered why farmers often own Quad bikes aswell as land rovers? Would one small off roader fill the middle ground here? An off road rail type design might fit the bill, so might a variant of beach buggies.
I've got to go!
I reckon that front wheel drive kit cars are always going to be rare. The obvious thing to do with a FWD drive train is to put it in the back and make something like the Libra. Honda Civic Type R. Now there's a thought for a middy.
Bike engined designs will be restricted to track day specials or to extreme road cars. The cost of a bike car has increased as bike breakers realise that they have new customers for their engines. A second gearbox will complicate things and add costs aswell. Always going to be restricted to the more race orientated market IMHO.
Traditional RWD layouts are being squeezed out as supplies dry up. Soon it will be BMW or Mercedes donor cars. For bigger engines I think it will be business as usual. Still plenty to choose from.
Monocoques may gain market share but these work best as coupes where the roof adds a lot of stiffnes. Chop the roof off and you need big sills to compensate. Look at the size of the sills on the Elise or Libra. Nothing wrong with this but while GTM and Lotus get it right I'll bet other companies won't have a clue.
Styling. Oh dear. I reckon that the success of replicas is largely due to styling. The classic designs that they copy look good. A lot of truly ugly kit cars have come and gone over the years. Why not take some ideas from concept cars. What is wrong with traditional styling anyway? TVR have made the retro/trad look up to date and exciting. The Caterham 21 looked good to. (What happened to this one? Has anyone got the moulds?)
There are many markets totally ignored by kits. Golf carts, invalid cars, city cars etc may not be exciting but they could fit well into what kit car companies do and help put them on a better financial footing. There must be dozens of niches to fill that are completely empty now. I once spoke to a disabled person who hated all invalid car designs. He had some good points too. Have you ever wondered why farmers often own Quad bikes aswell as land rovers? Would one small off roader fill the middle ground here? An off road rail type design might fit the bill, so might a variant of beach buggies.
I've got to go!
cymtriks said:
Look at the size of the sills on the Elise or Libra.
Not to mention the multitude of 'boxes' that make up the rest of the Libra monococque.
cymtriks said:
Styling. Oh dear. I reckon that the success of replicas is largely due to styling. The classic designs that they copy look good. A lot of truly ugly kit cars have come and gone over the years.
GTM, of course, got a car designer in to do the Rossas, Libra and Spyder. Most kitcar manufacturers do it themselves.....and most fail.
Cymtriks
I agree with most of your analysis, but I would not discount FWD design just yet.
I believe that the Midas Gold convertible, Lotus elan S2 of the 90's, where great handling Fwd sportscars.
Maybe some styling details needed improving, like bigger wheels on the Elan, and a few other things on the Midas, but they were very good cars dynamically.
I'm not a Fwd fan myself, but some great chassis have been designed with this layout.
Peugeot 205 GTI, Renault 5 GT Turbo? pocket rockets that could have been used for new sportscars by the kit industry.
I think that Mid-engine kits using FWD engines will be the future, but a niche a Fwd sportscars could make it if the styling is there................
Now the styling................oh dear where do we start?
Ferg is right, very few real designers have designed kitcars, most are done by the manufacturers themselves.
The Gtm Lybra, Rossa and others were designed by Richard Oakes, who I believe to be one of the great and unsung british designers.
I believe the moulds of the Caterham 21 to be still in their hands.
I liked the design, but Caterham has the same problem, Porsche has with the 911, everyone wants the Seven and only the Seven.
By the Way as a fun project, I'm working on a FWD design with a PH-mate, that is almost ready to be shown.................................a few more days!!! (it has taken me some time to fine tune the styling though.......)
I agree with most of your analysis, but I would not discount FWD design just yet.
I believe that the Midas Gold convertible, Lotus elan S2 of the 90's, where great handling Fwd sportscars.
Maybe some styling details needed improving, like bigger wheels on the Elan, and a few other things on the Midas, but they were very good cars dynamically.
I'm not a Fwd fan myself, but some great chassis have been designed with this layout.
Peugeot 205 GTI, Renault 5 GT Turbo? pocket rockets that could have been used for new sportscars by the kit industry.
I think that Mid-engine kits using FWD engines will be the future, but a niche a Fwd sportscars could make it if the styling is there................
Now the styling................oh dear where do we start?
Ferg is right, very few real designers have designed kitcars, most are done by the manufacturers themselves.
The Gtm Lybra, Rossa and others were designed by Richard Oakes, who I believe to be one of the great and unsung british designers.
I believe the moulds of the Caterham 21 to be still in their hands.
I liked the design, but Caterham has the same problem, Porsche has with the 911, everyone wants the Seven and only the Seven.
By the Way as a fun project, I'm working on a FWD design with a PH-mate, that is almost ready to be shown.................................a few more days!!! (it has taken me some time to fine tune the styling though.......)
can't wait italo. From what I've seen of your work so far you are a design god.
Speaking of styling I was at a village fete with classic cars being shown and there was a lovely pale blue metallic alfa turned up couldn't tell you what it was but where did they go wrong with the new stuff
Speaking of styling I was at a village fete with classic cars being shown and there was a lovely pale blue metallic alfa turned up couldn't tell you what it was but where did they go wrong with the new stuff
Thanks Spartan Andy ! Not there yet but working on it..............!!
What do you think of body conversions? I know Banham has done some interesting work on this front, do not know about the quality of the kits, but could be a maybe cheaper way to rebody a modern car.
Italian design houses did this in the 60's, with a lot of Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Lancia, Maserati, Porsche and a few ferrari chassis.
I do have to say, that the Maserati and Ferrari chassis were always designed for the well off, but some great little sportscars turned out from Fiat 850 and 1000cc chassis, anyone remember ABARTH MONOMILLE ?
You have so much to choose from today
What do you think of body conversions? I know Banham has done some interesting work on this front, do not know about the quality of the kits, but could be a maybe cheaper way to rebody a modern car.
Italian design houses did this in the 60's, with a lot of Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Lancia, Maserati, Porsche and a few ferrari chassis.
I do have to say, that the Maserati and Ferrari chassis were always designed for the well off, but some great little sportscars turned out from Fiat 850 and 1000cc chassis, anyone remember ABARTH MONOMILLE ?
You have so much to choose from today
Ex-Biker said:
A 7 seater with an engine under their seats, sounds like a 1991 TOYOTA PREVIA!!!
mmmmmm!
Lower, wider, faster, better handling with sporty looks.
Apart from that a Previa.
I bet there are a few kit car enthusiasts that would like to have a people carrier that you can drive properly. Take the family to Donnington, then have a quick trip around the track. They can even design the interior to get more seats or more space etc.
I saw my dream people carier a few years back..... it was a lairy painted astro, with a Syclone engine in it, I didn't have the money back then and have to make do with a chrysler.
recon there may be a market for a good one of these.... BMW V12, 7 seats, 19in wheels, 15k.... I'd be very interested.
Spartan Andy,
If the pale blue was a concept car, then we are talking of the Alfa Romeo Nuvola.
Great looking Alfa Romeo concept, it had spaceframe chassis, V6 engine and a carbon fibre body.
Alfa Romeo was going to supply the complete chassis complete with engines, to any design house that asked, and you could taylor design a new body on top of it.
Your manufactures high end specialist/kit car.
The designers were Walter Da Silva and Wolfgang Egger.
After Alfa Romeo decided to cancel the project, Da Silva and Egger decided to leave Alfa Romeo after 20 yrs!!!!, both left and went to Seat.
He is now the new head of design at Audi,Lamborghini, Bentley.
The renessaince of Seat design, very Alfa in a lot of details, is due to him and a british designer called Steve Lewis.
Car magazine ran an article in 1996, were they supplied the design of the complete chassis of the Nuvola to a few design studios in Italy, the Uk and various freelance designers, and all came up with proposals.
Peter Stevens and Simon Saunders(Ariel Atom) presented also their very interesting renderings.
I hope I gave some interesting info on the Nuvola concept car.
The new Alfa Romeo 8C concept car is the again the work of Wolfgang Egger who came back to Alfa in 2001, a german designer, I think he is a talented designer.
If the pale blue was a concept car, then we are talking of the Alfa Romeo Nuvola.
Great looking Alfa Romeo concept, it had spaceframe chassis, V6 engine and a carbon fibre body.
Alfa Romeo was going to supply the complete chassis complete with engines, to any design house that asked, and you could taylor design a new body on top of it.
Your manufactures high end specialist/kit car.
The designers were Walter Da Silva and Wolfgang Egger.
After Alfa Romeo decided to cancel the project, Da Silva and Egger decided to leave Alfa Romeo after 20 yrs!!!!, both left and went to Seat.
He is now the new head of design at Audi,Lamborghini, Bentley.
The renessaince of Seat design, very Alfa in a lot of details, is due to him and a british designer called Steve Lewis.
Car magazine ran an article in 1996, were they supplied the design of the complete chassis of the Nuvola to a few design studios in Italy, the Uk and various freelance designers, and all came up with proposals.
Peter Stevens and Simon Saunders(Ariel Atom) presented also their very interesting renderings.
I hope I gave some interesting info on the Nuvola concept car.
The new Alfa Romeo 8C concept car is the again the work of Wolfgang Egger who came back to Alfa in 2001, a german designer, I think he is a talented designer.
fuoriserie said:
Resurected the thread because most of the comments in 2004 were spot on, and wonder what will happen in the future, with the looming credit crunch ?
How do you guys think the kitcar industry will look like in the future, and what products are going to survive the recession ?
Without wanting to be totally negative, I do wonder whether we'll start to see an end to them due to the removal of SVA and similar and the increasing requirements for pedestrian safety etc.How do you guys think the kitcar industry will look like in the future, and what products are going to survive the recession ?
meeja said:
Wacky Racer said:
Long live the classic 7 shape...........
Until the world runs out of Sierra diffs......
The Subie diff is an Hitachi unit common to some others and the WRX and XT Forester / Liberty have LSD with 4.1:1 options.
Perhaps Lexus diffs too.
Having a torsion test here is a requirement, this becomes part of an official build document that covers from the design stage through to a sign off of driving charictoristics, bump steer figures, in addition to edges of projection, side impact requirements, bumper requirements etc. This seriously stifles everything here, even engineers (Govt approved) are in short supply due to insurance costs and perceved dangers.
Ex-Biker said:
Then you get to the stage where a good secondhand Elise will be much better value.
Have we not got here already? Anyone with £7k to spend on a kit should seriously consider a second hand Elise first but, it isn't going to get you the same level of thrills as some of the more extreme bike-engined cars out there.Rob
http://www.elises.co.uk
http://www.robcollingridge.com/FuryR1/
I think the secondhand Elise is already having an impact http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I think there will be more casualties for the kit car industry in 09,
The survivors will be ones will reasonably full order books now, or those that don't need to sell any cars for 18 months to survive.
I wont comment on the mono vs spaceframe debate, way to many variables.
Cheers
Joe T
I think there will be more casualties for the kit car industry in 09,
The survivors will be ones will reasonably full order books now, or those that don't need to sell any cars for 18 months to survive.
I wont comment on the mono vs spaceframe debate, way to many variables.
Cheers
Joe T
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