Any high performance diesel kit cars?
Discussion
Maybe a bit of an odd one this, but was just curious. With the availability of things like the PSA 2.7 TDV6 engine used in the Disco3 and various Jags, as well as Citroens and Pugs too.
It got me wondering, have any kit cars or even just custom swaps adopted the use of engines such as these?
For example, the 2.7 unit will easily remap to around 230hp and I’ve seen claims of 260hp too. The latter 3.0 litre version will even top 300hp.
Surely an engine such as this could be an alternative to using a Rover V8. I doubt the all up weight is massively different, nor the packaging requirements and will offer pretty similar levels of power, maybe advantage the diesel lump. And of course massively better mpg.
I know there was the Westfield Wiesel years ago with a 4 cylinder diesel. But haven’t really seen much else embrace diesel power in the UK.
It got me wondering, have any kit cars or even just custom swaps adopted the use of engines such as these?
For example, the 2.7 unit will easily remap to around 230hp and I’ve seen claims of 260hp too. The latter 3.0 litre version will even top 300hp.
Surely an engine such as this could be an alternative to using a Rover V8. I doubt the all up weight is massively different, nor the packaging requirements and will offer pretty similar levels of power, maybe advantage the diesel lump. And of course massively better mpg.
I know there was the Westfield Wiesel years ago with a 4 cylinder diesel. But haven’t really seen much else embrace diesel power in the UK.
Due to the increasing use of brand new engines in kit cars, particularly the blacktop zetec, I think builders are now looking at used donor engines less than they once would've, and that includes diesels. Diesel engines are extremely expensive next to a blacktop, and the difference in cost would buy you an awful lot of fuel. You could have a 2.0 zetec, brand new, tuned to fast road spec (195hp?) and still have change compared to buying a brand new diesel. And the (relatively) light weight of the zetec would make any kit car handle much better than with a six pot diesel engine.
Had an interesting chat with my BMW Indy the other day. We got talking about theft of push button start cars, and did I need to take any precautions with my 130i. He said no. Only worry if you've got a 320d, he said, cos they're getting stolen to order to extract their diesel engines. Seriously. Diesel equals cost. You save money on fuel, and shell out on everything else. And then there's the complexity....
Had an interesting chat with my BMW Indy the other day. We got talking about theft of push button start cars, and did I need to take any precautions with my 130i. He said no. Only worry if you've got a 320d, he said, cos they're getting stolen to order to extract their diesel engines. Seriously. Diesel equals cost. You save money on fuel, and shell out on everything else. And then there's the complexity....
300bhp/ton said:
Maybe a bit of an odd one this, but was just curious. With the availability of things like the PSA 2.7 TDV6 engine used in the Disco3 and various Jags, as well as Citroens and Pugs too.
It got me wondering, have any kit cars or even just custom swaps adopted the use of engines such as these?
For example, the 2.7 unit will easily remap to around 230hp and I’ve seen claims of 260hp too. The latter 3.0 litre version will even top 300hp.
Surely an engine such as this could be an alternative to using a Rover V8. I doubt the all up weight is massively different, nor the packaging requirements and will offer pretty similar levels of power, maybe advantage the diesel lump. And of course massively better mpg.
I know there was the Westfield Wiesel years ago with a 4 cylinder diesel. But haven’t really seen much else embrace diesel power in the UK.
It's almost as if the characteristics of a diesel don't really suit a sports car, isn't it?It got me wondering, have any kit cars or even just custom swaps adopted the use of engines such as these?
For example, the 2.7 unit will easily remap to around 230hp and I’ve seen claims of 260hp too. The latter 3.0 litre version will even top 300hp.
Surely an engine such as this could be an alternative to using a Rover V8. I doubt the all up weight is massively different, nor the packaging requirements and will offer pretty similar levels of power, maybe advantage the diesel lump. And of course massively better mpg.
I know there was the Westfield Wiesel years ago with a 4 cylinder diesel. But haven’t really seen much else embrace diesel power in the UK.
one eyed mick said:
Not suitable for sports cars ? tell that to Porsche , Audi or Peugot!after many years of competition?
True but those are driven for speed over a race distance, not enjoyment.NB. I am not saying diesel engines cannot be enjoyable, rather that saying something is good in a race car doesn't automatically follow that it will be good in a sports car.
Edited by budgie smuggler on Thursday 2nd November 11:19
I can see no good reason for putting a heavy, complex diesel in a lightweight chassis that’s designed for fun. It’s the same reason that nobody (outside the military) builds a diesel motorbike, the torque vs weight vs rpm delivery is all wrong.
The twin turbo 3.0 in my Disco is great for what it’s designed for when mated to the 8 Speed ZF transmission but it would be horrible in a kit car with a manual.
A 300hp TSI petrol from a Golf or turbo Hayabusa motor would be a much better idea.
....or an LSA/LS9/LS3/LS7
The twin turbo 3.0 in my Disco is great for what it’s designed for when mated to the 8 Speed ZF transmission but it would be horrible in a kit car with a manual.
A 300hp TSI petrol from a Golf or turbo Hayabusa motor would be a much better idea.
....or an LSA/LS9/LS3/LS7
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 2nd November 11:48
ugg10 said:
The MeV rear engine cars are based on a focus so no reason why the 2.0 tdci would not go in.
The spire gtr I guess could take the Audi 2.5 tdi with 2wd transaxle and make a Audi lmp alike.
But don’t know any specifically designed for big diesels.
Pretty sure I saw a build in a magazine where a diesel donor was used in a MEV kit, however I would think it is like using an automatic transmission, only done for a specific personal reason.The spire gtr I guess could take the Audi 2.5 tdi with 2wd transaxle and make a Audi lmp alike.
But don’t know any specifically designed for big diesels.
CrutyRammers said:
It's almost as if the characteristics of a diesel don't really suit a sports car, isn't it?
Not sure I agree fully. Although it would depend on the exact engine in question and compared to what. Let’s face it. A Ford X-Flow is hardly an exciting engine to drive in any shape or form. But it found its way into plants of kit and sports cars.
And I’m a big fan of a Rover V8. But most of them have a rather diesel like power delivery about them. Not many revs and mostly low/mid end grunt nosing over at high revs.
I say this as I’ve driven Diesel engines which have very nice characteristics.
A Land Rover Tdi is completely unsuitable in a sports car due to weight and power output. But tuned ones have very nice and addictive power deliveries.
wormus said:
I can see no good reason for putting a heavy, complex diesel in a lightweight chassis that’s designed for fun. It’s the same reason that nobody (outside the military) builds a diesel motorbike, the torque vs weight vs rpm delivery is all wrong.
The twin turbo 3.0 in my Disco is great for what it’s designed for when mated to the 8 Speed ZF transmission but it would be horrible in a kit car with a manual.
A 300hp TSI petrol from a Golf or turbo Hayabusa motor would be a much better idea.
....or an LSA/LS9/LS3/LS7
The 2.7 Diesel in a D3 could be had with a 6 speed manual and went fine. And that’s a stock engine. Tune them properly and they feel very different. And if you shed 1.7 tonnes of weight and I’m pretty sure it would dramatically alter how they drive. The twin turbo 3.0 in my Disco is great for what it’s designed for when mated to the 8 Speed ZF transmission but it would be horrible in a kit car with a manual.
A 300hp TSI petrol from a Golf or turbo Hayabusa motor would be a much better idea.
....or an LSA/LS9/LS3/LS7
Edited by wormus on Thursday 2nd November 11:48
As a for instance. I have a TR7 V8. Which is huge fun and weighs about the same as a TVR Chim.
However a 3.5-4.0 RV8 is going to be in the 180-240hp range depending on spec.
A tuned 2.7 TDV6 could easily match the power. And I’m betting all up the weight difference is probably minimal. But you’d have something that would probably be quicker and have the ability to return over 50mpg.
Apart from the cost of doing it. I personally can’t see a reason why not.
300bhp/ton said:
The 2.7 Diesel in a D3 could be had with a 6 speed manual and went fine. And that’s a stock engine. Tune them properly and they feel very different. And if you shed 1.7 tonnes of weight and I’m pretty sure it would dramatically alter how they drive.
As a for instance. I have a TR7 V8. Which is huge fun and weighs about the same as a TVR Chim.
However a 3.5-4.0 RV8 is going to be in the 180-240hp range depending on spec.
A tuned 2.7 TDV6 could easily match the power. And I’m betting all up the weight difference is probably minimal. But you’d have something that would probably be quicker and have the ability to return over 50mpg.
Apart from the cost of doing it. I personally can’t see a reason why not.
I had a 2.7 TDV6 D3 which I remapped to around 220hp. It went from slow to almost acceptable which I put down to the weight of the car but the engine itself was still a diesel with a narrow power band. No way you can compare it to a glorious petrol Rover V8.As a for instance. I have a TR7 V8. Which is huge fun and weighs about the same as a TVR Chim.
However a 3.5-4.0 RV8 is going to be in the 180-240hp range depending on spec.
A tuned 2.7 TDV6 could easily match the power. And I’m betting all up the weight difference is probably minimal. But you’d have something that would probably be quicker and have the ability to return over 50mpg.
Apart from the cost of doing it. I personally can’t see a reason why not.
Would be interesting to see. I can't understand the general thought that a diesel is not suitable for a sports car, correct gearing makes top rpm just a number.... Granted sound might not be there, but the majority of kit cars are running 4 cylinders anyway.
IMO it's the same as Clarkson soundbites like flappy paddly gearboxes are s
t.. no. Electric cars are st.... no, telsa. etc
IMO it's the same as Clarkson soundbites like flappy paddly gearboxes are s
t.. no. Electric cars are st.... no, telsa. etcBlack_S3 said:
Would be interesting to see. I can't understand the general thought that a diesel is not suitable for a sports car, correct gearing makes top rpm just a number.... Granted sound might not be there, but the majority of kit cars are running 4 cylinders anyway.
IMO it's the same as Clarkson soundbites like flappy paddly gearboxes are st.. no. Electric cars are st.... no, telsa. etc
That’s exactly my thinking. Gearing solves a shorter rev range too. IMO it's the same as Clarkson soundbites like flappy paddly gearboxes are s
t.. no. Electric cars are st.... no, telsa. etc300bhp/ton said:
That’s exactly my thinking. Gearing solves a shorter rev range too.
Whats not to like about having the power there from low rpm either...I've got a claimed 180bhp zetec 7 and it's fair to say its pretty gutless under 4.5k which is fairly high to start playing in anyone's books. Would be much better with a band of 1k-4.5k instead of the 4.5k-8.5k its got - ie 1k deadzone over 4.5k deadzone.Edited by Black_S3 on Friday 17th November 01:16
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