New emissions for kit cars consultation

[alfaspecial]

MKnight702 said:

I've responded as well.

I expect it will have precisely zero impact. The "green" blanket has been thrown over this proposal and how dare anyone question it or try to pull the blanket off.

I've responded. My response was as per my post here on Tues 6 Feb @ 14.20.
Suggest all interested posters do so ASAP- remember if we don't at least make some representations then we are de facto accepting the proposals - and are less likely to respond as the 'wedge' goes from thin to thick..................

[Kccv23highliftcam]

Mistrale said:

Equus,

If you have a serious point to make, then perhaps you should resist the temptation to belittle other posters with petty jibes - or perhaps that is your own method of illiciting a response.

Equus said:

Nope, you're not missing anything: the industry is fked.

SVA was the thin end of the wedge, and IVA was somebody hitting the wedge with a bloody great lumphammer.

It is ironic that on one hand (thread) you are bemoaning the effect of SVA/IVA yet on this one you are championing a piece of legislation that will remove another dozen or so models from the UK kit car scene.

Quote Equus

"...I'm not the one worrying about whether my Nazi-Wagon is capable of passing a basic MOT emissions test, am I"

don't know whether to ignore the troll or report it..

[Equus]

Kccv23highliftcam said:

don't know whether to ignore the troll or report it..

The Beetle (KdF Wagen) was a Nazi party initiative. It was designed by a known Nazi party member, SS Oberführer, and convicted war criminal. Those are mere statements of historical fact.

[Steve Dean]

Just to muddy the water a bit ........ I'm looking at adding to my collection by buying an E-Type Jaguar that was built sometime in the late 1960's - early 1970's, i.e. before 1977. No road tax and no MOT required !!!!
Were you all aware that the change to the requirement to not require an MOT for vehicles built before 1977 means that an additional 292,000 vehicles (in addition to all those previously built before 1960) will be MOT exempt from May.

Puts the tiny amount of pollution my GT40 emits into perspective !

[Equus]

Yes, I've got to say that i was astonished at the move to MOT exemption on historic vehicles - it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, on safety grounds, never mind emissions, and I don't even get the impression that many classic car enthusiasts wanted it!

[Steve Dean]

Before someone points it out, I will add that you can voluntarily take your pre 1977 vehicle for an MOT, but it is not a legal requirement.

Whilst we are raising eyebrows ....... some friends of mine just purchased an all electric car. Being the type of folk they are, they have a smart meter fitted to their electricity supply. Now they can't sleep worrying about the amount of electricity the meter shows they are using.
I found it very hard to keep a straight face when they told me !!!!

[Fastpedeller]

'And where will the 'non-polluting ' electric cars which will save the planet be made......... Why, in China, where they are busy building coal and gas-fired power stations to meet the demand. The electric mini is going to be built there - it was announced a few days ago. How our Government believes this is the way to go (to save the planet) is beyond me - I can only think they are intent on cutting reliance on oil from the Middle East!

[GinG15]

look...you are very lucky in UK:

You are the ONLY EU-country where the emission classification is done by the engine age.

in all other EU countries its done by the reg-date:
besides some exemptions this means:

EVERY car with a reg-date from 1992 onwards, needs a controlled catalytic converter, incl. matching intake system...the younger the reg-date the stricter the Euro-Norm....which also includes stricter regulations for noise, EMC, OBD etc.

means building a Kitcar with a pinto or crossflow engine...or even a Zetec/duratec fed by carbs...since 1992officially IMPOSSIBLE

[V8covin]

GinG15 said:

look...you are very lucky in UK:

You are the ONLY EU-country where the emission classification is done by the engine age.

in all other EU countries its done by the reg-date:
besides some exemptions this means:

EVERY car with a reg-date from 1992 onwards, needs a controlled catalytic converter, incl. matching intake system...the younger the reg-date the stricter the Euro-Norm....which also includes stricter regulations for noise, EMC, OBD etc.

means building a Kitcar with a pinto or crossflow engine...or even a Zetec/duratec fed by carbs...since 1992officially IMPOSSIBLE

We won't be in the EU much longer 😁

[Equus]

V8covin said:

We won't be in the EU much longer ??

I'm not entirely sure I'd put money on that, the way things are going...

But in any case, as I said back on 25th Feb:

Equus said:

Another part of the consultation, which the kit car community has either failed to pick up on or chosen to ignore, asks whether the UK industry wishes to remain in alignment with EU legislation. Most of the manufacturers I know have answered 'yes' to this, as they don't want two separate testing and type approval regimes (with twice the cost) for their products... so there may end up being a basic legislative conflict to be resolved, anyway.

There is a strong chance that we'll decide to remain in alignment with EU legislation, without having any say in how it is formulated.

[GinG15]

V8covin said:

We won't be in the EU much longer ??

maybe the Eu will than ban owners of british cars to drive on EU roads if they do not fiullfill the emission demands?

bye-bye holidays, bye-bye LeMans....

[Kccv23highliftcam]

Equus said:

V8covin said:

We won't be in the EU much longer ??

I'm not entirely sure I'd put money on that, the way things are going...

But in any case, as I said back on 25th Feb:

Equus said:

Another part of the consultation, which the kit car community has either failed to pick up on or chosen to ignore, asks whether the UK industry wishes to remain in alignment with EU legislation. Most of the manufacturers I know have answered 'yes' to this, as they don't want two separate testing and type approval regimes (with twice the cost) for their products... so there may end up being a basic legislative conflict to be resolved, anyway.

There is a strong chance that we'll decide to remain in alignment with EU legislation, without having any say in how it is formulated.

So what is your opinion on larger capacity engines?

[Fastpedeller]

Kccv23highliftcam said:

So what is your opinion on larger capacity engines?

Dangerous to ask his opinion! - It may also be way off the opinion of the majority.

[Equus]

Kccv23highliftcam said:

So what is your opinion on larger capacity engines?

My opinion (and experience) is that they're not necessarily as inefficient as many people think, especially in motorway or extra-urban use.

A fair bit of what you lose in swept volume, you gain back in lower average revs. I can drive all day in my big SUV and never see more than 2,500rpm... and most of the time it's cruising at 1500rpm.

Proof of the pudding is that I average low-to-mid 30's mpg in a modern 2 3/4 tonne behemoth, which I'm willing to bet is considerably better than Mistrale's Nazi-Wagon will manage from a 1600cc flat 4 on twin carbs, in car that weighs less than a third as much. Certainly, I never managed much above low 20's mpg in my old Crossflow-and-twin-Webers kitcars, or my Twin-Cam-and-twin-Webers Lotus Elans.

Obviously the combination of a modern, efficient engine that's also smaller capacity and in a light car is the best of all worlds, but I'm afraid I've never managed more than high40's/low-50's mpg even in my Toyota Agyo or Smart Roadster (in fact, the Smart couldn't do better than about 45mpg).... so better, but not dramatically so, when you consider the size and weight difference.

In short, the difference between extremes with modern, efficient engines is much less than the dreadful inefficiency you get with archaic, carburettored engines of any capacity.

I certainly wouldn't resist legislation that limited all new cars to 2 litres, though.

[V8covin]

GinG15 said:

maybe the Eu will than ban owners of british cars to drive on EU roads if they do not fiullfill the emission demands?

bye-bye holidays, bye-bye LeMans....

How many kit cars go to Le Mans ?
That's what this thread is about,kit cars, hence it's in the kit car section

[Equus]

V8covin said:

How many kit cars go to Le Mans ?

A surprising number, if you've ever been.

Quite a few do trips to the Alps or the Nurburgring, too.

But unless you've not noticed, the EU isn't much inclined to do us favours right at the moment. The more likely outcome is that they could say that all UK-registered cars are restricted in use on mainland Europe, unless we give a commitment that all UK-registered cars remain compliant with their standards.

It's not really practical to pick and choose which cars are adequately safe and efficient as they pass through a customs checkpoint.

[V8covin]

Equus said:

A surprising number, if you've ever been.

Quite a few do trips to the Alps or the Nurburgring, too.

But unless you've not noticed, the EU isn't much inclined to do us favours right at the moment. The more likely outcome is that they could say that all UK-registered cars are restricted in use on mainland Europe, unless we give a commitment that all UK-registered cars remain compliant with their standards.

It's not really practical to pick and choose which cars are adequately safe and efficient as they pass through a customs checkpoint.

I don't have an issue with emissions being standardized across the board for NEW vehicles. I have an issue with the timescale of implementing change.
If the proposed new rules were to come into force 1/1/2020 for example I think most people would accept that without complaint

[Equus]

V8covin said:

I don't have an issue with emissions being standardized across the board for NEW vehicles. I have an issue with the timescale of implementing change.
If the proposed new rules were to come into force 1/1/2020 for example I think most people would accept that without complaint

I think most people agree with you on that - and hopefully even the politicians will have sufficient common sense and sense of fair play to allow such an implementation.

The consultation is now closed, so we'll just have to wait and see what the outcome is.

[MKnight702]

GinG15 said:

look...you are very lucky in UK:

You are the ONLY EU-country where the emission classification is done by the engine age.

in all other EU countries its done by the reg-date:
besides some exemptions this means:

EVERY car with a reg-date from 1992 onwards, needs a controlled catalytic converter, incl. matching intake system...the younger the reg-date the stricter the Euro-Norm....which also includes stricter regulations for noise, EMC, OBD etc.

means building a Kitcar with a pinto or crossflow engine...or even a Zetec/duratec fed by carbs...since 1992officially IMPOSSIBLE

This is where I take issue, if I build a Westfield XI which is ultimately a rebodied MG Midget (yes I know it uses a different chassis) I get to keep the original age of the donor MG Midget for registration purposes and yet I would have to comply with current emissions regulations.

Yet if I take the same MG Midget donor and stick it into a brand new Heritage shell on a brand new chassis I would not have to comply with the new emissions regulations. Seems totally illogical and therefore ideal legislation.

What are they hoping to achieve? It's not as though there will be a massive reduction in emissions from these cars is it? Cars sold as new like Caterham will already have to meet the emissions regulations and will be, by far, the more numerous. Cars like the XI or the Suffolk C Type recycle old components and in all probability will have a rebuilt engine that runs far cleaner than the donor did for very few miles per year, so why punish them?

[andygtt]

I was extremely worried about this 'rushed through' legislation... I felt it was going to kill my long term scratch build Kit Car which I have invested £25k on already and am at least 2 years away from building, my 2005 engine had been killed off by the original manufacturer as they couldn't get it through stricter emissions 5 years after its introduction so I stood little chance!

However I was extremely happy to learn that its not actually changing things that much, all they are actually requiring is that a 'kit car' IVA'd after July meet a minimum emissions from 16 YEARS AGO.

Basically almost all engines will comply with injection and CAT's.... this IMO is a MASSIVE concession by our government and means we remain significantly more lenient in the UK that other countries in Europe.
As mentioned earlier in this thread, PINTO's with a CAT and injection passed the emissions standards from 16 years back, as did Rover V8's in the TVR's... even SBC have been able to pass!!!

Bear in mind there are separate concessions for classic cars being IVA'd etc.

Now Im a long way away from being a tree hugger and I have opinions that there are far more significant ignored areas that should be controlled.... however this is the world we live in and its 'going green', accept it and move on... unless of cause you just like having something to moan about (I know plenty of people who hobby it is to moan lol).

Now Im not saying we shouldn't have our say in these consultations etc, I personally put my view forward in their questionnaire!

Saying all that, this might kill off BEC's... Bikes don't have the same noise and emissions standards to meet... so my dream of one day building a Ducati powered 7 type might be gone lol