New emissions for kit cars consultation
Discussion
It probably won't make much difference in the long run, as the industry is already f
ked, but it's certainly a triumph for short-termism and self interest.
The industry has to evolve to keep up with mainstream attitudes and legislation, or die.
Everyone Almost everyone has just voted to let it die...
Congratulations.
ked, but it's certainly a triumph for short-termism and self interest.The industry has to evolve to keep up with mainstream attitudes and legislation, or die.
Congratulations.
Equus said:
It probably won't make much difference in the long run, as the industry is already fked, but it's certainly a triumph for short-termism and self interest.
The industry has to evolve to keep up with mainstream attitudes and legislation, or die.
Everyone Almost everyone has just voted to let it die...
Congratulations.
What a ray of sunshine you are....ked, but it's certainly a triumph for short-termism and self interest.The industry has to evolve to keep up with mainstream attitudes and legislation, or die.
Congratulations.
Toltec said:
I saw your reply on the post asking about putting a roof on a conservatory, seems unlike you, is it a bad day?
No, not at all.Willful stupidity frustrates me any day of the week.
Seriously, though - as I've said before further up this thread - it is inconceivable that as the mainstream industry progresses (rapidly) toward LZEV, one-offs will be allowed to continue new registrations with ridiculously dirty engines indefinitely.
The longer we put off grasping the nettle, the worse we're gonna get stung.
There is perhaps potential for IVA fee adjustment. It is now confirmed that older non CAT engines can continue to be registered even though the test fee includes quite a chunk of time allocated to non applicable emission testing.
Considering that only seconds are spent peeping at the tail pipe on non CAT cars, these fees are perhaps unbalanced. But then so is the test itself.
Those with "modern" donors (well the last 25 years at least) appear penalised as they have to jump through more IVA hoops than those with 4 down drafts.
Maybe they should increase the fee for those with "clean" engines !
Considering that only seconds are spent peeping at the tail pipe on non CAT cars, these fees are perhaps unbalanced. But then so is the test itself.
Those with "modern" donors (well the last 25 years at least) appear penalised as they have to jump through more IVA hoops than those with 4 down drafts.
Maybe they should increase the fee for those with "clean" engines !
Stuart Mills said:
Those with "modern" donors (well the last 25 years at least) appear penalised as they have to jump through more IVA hoops than those with 4 down drafts.
Equus, you remind me of either Marvin the Paranoid Android or Eeyore!
No one will die, the world will not increase in temperature by a millionth of a degree just because a few die-hards wish to keep their VW/Pinto/Jag engine on the road in a kit.
The industry will continue for a while yet. And probably flourish as it moves into lightweight electric power trains (thank you Mr Mills). I’ve already seen an electric Meyers Manx on Facebook.
(Except we don’t have enough electricity.....better build some more fossil fuel powered power stations just in case we want the kettle on on a windless day!)
No one will die, the world will not increase in temperature by a millionth of a degree just because a few die-hards wish to keep their VW/Pinto/Jag engine on the road in a kit.
The industry will continue for a while yet. And probably flourish as it moves into lightweight electric power trains (thank you Mr Mills). I’ve already seen an electric Meyers Manx on Facebook.
(Except we don’t have enough electricity.....better build some more fossil fuel powered power stations just in case we want the kettle on on a windless day!)
Mistrale said:
No one will die, the world will not increase in temperature by a millionth of a degree just because a few die-hards wish to keep their VW/Pinto/Jag engine on
But as I've repeatedly pointed out on this thread, anyone with an ounce of common sense recognises that it's about cumulative effect....and in an alleged democracy, legislation has to be seen to be fair and equitable for all. It's no good saying that the law applies to everybody except this small group of people, because inevitably, and quite rightly, everyone else will say 'if they don't need to do anything, why should I be expected to?'.
We're getting there with the electricity, by the way: last year saw the first 'coal free' day in the UK, and the first day where renewables produced the majority of the country's power. This year has seen 3 days running without coal, and the first day when 2/3rds of the country's power was by renewables.
Time to get with the programme, folks...
Equus said:
Mistrale said:
No one will die, the world will not increase in temperature by a millionth of a degree just because a few die-hards wish to keep their VW/Pinto/Jag engine on
But as I've repeatedly pointed out on this thread, anyone with an ounce of common sense recognises that it's about cumulative effect....and in an alleged democracy, legislation has to be seen to be fair and equitable for all. It's no good saying that the law applies to everybody except this small group of people, because inevitably, and quite rightly, everyone else will say 'if they don't need to do anything, why should I be expected to?'.
We're getting there with the electricity, by the way: last year saw the first 'coal free' day in the UK, and the first day where renewables produced the majority of the country's power. This year has seen 3 days running without coal, and the first day when 2/3rds of the country's power was by renewables.
Time to get with the programme, folks...
Surely democracy is about protection of the rights of the minorities?
There are around 31 million cars on the road in the UK. Critically, any non-cat engine that will be used in a kit car is already one of those 31 million, so there is actually no increase in emissions as a result of this.
How many of the 31 million are kit cars? Assume 31,000 to keep the maths simple. That’s 0.001% of the total cars on the road. Let’s say half of those don’t have Cats. So at the very worst, 0.0005% of UK car emissions are from non-Cat kit cars. Then factor in the fact an average kit car does 10% of the miles of a normal car, we are at 0.00005%.
Transport as a whole currently contributes 124.4 million tonnes CO2 per year. If that is entirely cars, then non-Cat kit cars contribute 622 tonnes of CO2 per year.
Given an average HGV emits 2.68 kg CO2 per km, then then entire emissions of non Cat kit cars are emitted by a single HGV in 232km (150 miles)
(Emissions figures from HMG 2016 greenhouse emission statistics and Exeter University)
(Please check my maths as there is every chance I am a factor of 10 out!!!!!)
So, please explain Equus why you feel this is so significant?
There are around 31 million cars on the road in the UK. Critically, any non-cat engine that will be used in a kit car is already one of those 31 million, so there is actually no increase in emissions as a result of this.
How many of the 31 million are kit cars? Assume 31,000 to keep the maths simple. That’s 0.001% of the total cars on the road. Let’s say half of those don’t have Cats. So at the very worst, 0.0005% of UK car emissions are from non-Cat kit cars. Then factor in the fact an average kit car does 10% of the miles of a normal car, we are at 0.00005%.
Transport as a whole currently contributes 124.4 million tonnes CO2 per year. If that is entirely cars, then non-Cat kit cars contribute 622 tonnes of CO2 per year.
Given an average HGV emits 2.68 kg CO2 per km, then then entire emissions of non Cat kit cars are emitted by a single HGV in 232km (150 miles)
(Emissions figures from HMG 2016 greenhouse emission statistics and Exeter University)
(Please check my maths as there is every chance I am a factor of 10 out!!!!!)
So, please explain Equus why you feel this is so significant?
Mistrale said:
Surely democracy is about protection of the rights of the minorities?
You didn't pay much attention at school, did you?Mistrale said:
So, please explain Equus why you feel this is so significant?
Because I would like the specialist car industry to have a future, not just a faltering present.Edited by Equus on Wednesday 2nd May 22:04
Errr, yes - I clearly paid more attention than you:
In a democratic society, the concept (and reality) of 'majorityrule and minority rights' is vitally important for a number ofreasons. On the one hand, it represents a commitment to fairnessand functionality alike, with the will of the majority given thespace and power it deserves in order to be acted upon. On the otherhand, and as a vital complement, it also recognizes the danger ofoppression of minority groups by the democratic majority; thus, itseeks to create appropriate space for minorities of any kind tocontinue to flourish despite (or even because of) their differenceswith the majority.
The motor industry has a future. It does not involve carburettored engines, no one would argue that. But it does have a present and while carburettored and non-Cat engines are still in use they remain part of the present.
In a democratic society, the concept (and reality) of 'majorityrule and minority rights' is vitally important for a number ofreasons. On the one hand, it represents a commitment to fairnessand functionality alike, with the will of the majority given thespace and power it deserves in order to be acted upon. On the otherhand, and as a vital complement, it also recognizes the danger ofoppression of minority groups by the democratic majority; thus, itseeks to create appropriate space for minorities of any kind tocontinue to flourish despite (or even because of) their differenceswith the majority.
The motor industry has a future. It does not involve carburettored engines, no one would argue that. But it does have a present and while carburettored and non-Cat engines are still in use they remain part of the present.
Mistrale said:
Errr, yes - I clearly paid more attention than you:
In a democratic society, the concept (and reality) of 'majorityrule and minority rights' is vitally important for a number ofreasons. On the one hand, it represents a commitment to fairnessand functionality alike, with the will of the majority given thespace and power it deserves in order to be acted upon. On the other hand, and as a vital complement, it also recognizes the danger ofoppression of minority groups by the democratic majority; thus, itseeks to create appropriate space for minorities of any kind tocontinue to flourish despite (or even because of) their differences with the majority.
Well (albeit very obviously - at least make the effort to insert spaces between the words when you copy-and-paste across lines of text) Googled. In a democratic society, the concept (and reality) of 'majorityrule and minority rights' is vitally important for a number ofreasons. On the one hand, it represents a commitment to fairnessand functionality alike, with the will of the majority given thespace and power it deserves in order to be acted upon. On the other hand, and as a vital complement, it also recognizes the danger ofoppression of minority groups by the democratic majority; thus, itseeks to create appropriate space for minorities of any kind tocontinue to flourish despite (or even because of) their differences with the majority.
But Democracy is quite simply rule by the majority. Minority rights are only there if the majority wish them to be so... which is the whole point in this instance. Showing some willing to keep at least remotely in step with wider public opinion might just preserve what's left of the industry. Knee-jerk reactionism and sticking your head in the sand (or whatever other dark place suffices to obscure the view) won't win any friends at all.
Mistrale said:
The motor industry has a future. It does not involve carburettored engines, no one would argue that. But it does have a present and while carburettored and non-Cat engines are still in use they remain part of the present.
But we're talking about the registration of new vehicles. Carburettored engines ceased to be a part of that present - much less the future - a quarter of a century ago.Gassing Station | Kit Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff