Whats happened to the Kit car world in the past 8 years?

Whats happened to the Kit car world in the past 8 years?

Author
Discussion

200Plus Club

10,671 posts

277 months

Saturday 3rd March 2018
quotequote all
Lister Bell and Gardner Douglas are doing very well. The market has definitely evolved.
A LB Stratos is where my money would go if I ever built another now.

010101

1,305 posts

147 months

Saturday 3rd March 2018
quotequote all
Lister Bell and the Gardner Douglas cars look well engineered.

The company financials look stagnant.

If the demand existed, both of the above companies are well placed to supply.

The demand does not appear to exist at a scale significant enough to be deemed an industry.

In this context industry means a volume of jobs and trade large enough to be on the political radar.

f1rob

316 posts

175 months

Sunday 4th March 2018
quotequote all
I "got" into kits in 1982 I had already seen a nova the previous year and was totally gobsmacked but didn't know what it was at the time.
The copy of kit car magazine I was given to read that fateful day had a brief editorial in it about the test drive of a new kit the Dutton Sierra.
That is probably the start of the "good old days" and the kit car explosion in my opinion
1982 most people were going round in cars with a lie expectancy of 8/10 years.
In 82 the youngest mk1 escort was 8 years old and there weren't many on the road, they were rust buckets and dieting fast
Also you had no ABS,aircon,central locking ect
Stack em high sell em cheap worked for dutton
Lot of people bought kits and completed them to a very wide range of Finnish to say the least
But the thing is for not a lot of money you could have something that was on par with or even better than what you could get on the second hand market
It's not like that now ! Even 15 year old cars can look pretty tidy have plenty of life an be very high spec
Dutton scored another victory (an all those who followed him) when he brought out the s3 Wharton
Cheap open top motoring for a few hundred pounds when there were only a few rusty mg,s in the main stream
Nice to watch the whole scene evolve and see how close gtm and Midas came to the main stream ( the later getting on the cover of autocar !)
But it was a fight they could never win
Look back 25 years an look at the cross section of people at a show buying kits and it was 16 to 60 an there was several options for everyone now you look at stoneliegh this year an the market will be 75/80% for 45/50 year old professionals/mortgage paid plenty of spare cash looking to forfil a childhood dream
Kit car market is like the housing market you need starter homes for people starting out you don't go straight to the 750,000 4 bed detached !

f1rob

316 posts

175 months

Sunday 4th March 2018
quotequote all
I "got" into kits in 1982 I had already seen a nova the previous year and was totally gobsmacked but didn't know what it was at the time.
The copy of kit car magazine I was given to read that fateful day had a brief editorial in it about the test drive of a new kit the Dutton Sierra.
That is probably the start of the "good old days" and the kit car explosion in my opinion
1982 most people were going round in cars with a lie expectancy of 8/10 years.
In 82 the youngest mk1 escort was 8 years old and there weren't many on the road, they were rust buckets and dieting fast
Also you had no ABS,aircon,central locking ect
Stack em high sell em cheap worked for dutton
Lot of people bought kits and completed them to a very wide range of Finnish to say the least
But the thing is for not a lot of money you could have something that was on par with or even better than what you could get on the second hand market
It's not like that now ! Even 15 year old cars can look pretty tidy have plenty of life an be very high spec
Dutton scored another victory (an all those who followed him) when he brought out the s3 Wharton
Cheap open top motoring for a few hundred pounds when there were only a few rusty mg,s in the main stream
Nice to watch the whole scene evolve and see how close gtm and Midas came to the main stream ( the later getting on the cover of autocar !)
But it was a fight they could never win
Look back 25 years an look at the cross section of people at a show buying kits and it was 16 to 60 an there was several options for everyone now you look at stoneliegh this year an the market will be 75/80% for 45/50 year old professionals/mortgage paid plenty of spare cash looking to forfil a childhood dream
Kit car market is like the housing market you need starter homes for people starting out you don't go straight to the 750,000 4 bed detached !

CanAm

9,114 posts

271 months

Sunday 4th March 2018
quotequote all
killerferret666 said:
That looks vaguely familiar smile I'm surprised lawyers haven't been involved.

Johnny5hoods

499 posts

118 months

Sunday 4th March 2018
quotequote all
f1rob said:
I "got" into kits in 1982 I had already seen a nova the previous year and was totally gobsmacked but didn't know what it was at the time.
The copy of kit car magazine I was given to read that fateful day had a brief editorial in it about the test drive of a new kit the Dutton Sierra.
That is probably the start of the "good old days" and the kit car explosion in my opinion
1982 most people were going round in cars with a lie expectancy of 8/10 years.
In 82 the youngest mk1 escort was 8 years old and there weren't many on the road, they were rust buckets and dieting fast
Also you had no ABS,aircon,central locking ect
Stack em high sell em cheap worked for dutton
Lot of people bought kits and completed them to a very wide range of Finnish to say the least
But the thing is for not a lot of money you could have something that was on par with or even better than what you could get on the second hand market
It's not like that now ! Even 15 year old cars can look pretty tidy have plenty of life an be very high spec
Dutton scored another victory (an all those who followed him) when he brought out the s3 Wharton
Cheap open top motoring for a few hundred pounds when there were only a few rusty mg,s in the main stream
Nice to watch the whole scene evolve and see how close gtm and Midas came to the main stream ( the later getting on the cover of autocar !)
But it was a fight they could never win
Look back 25 years an look at the cross section of people at a show buying kits and it was 16 to 60 an there was several options for everyone now you look at stoneliegh this year an the market will be 75/80% for 45/50 year old professionals/mortgage paid plenty of spare cash looking to forfil a childhood dream
Kit car market is like the housing market you need starter homes for people starting out you don't go straight to the 750,000 4 bed detached !
Nice post. It's a crying shame Ford abandoned RWD. Digressing slightly, notice how Renault, Citroen/Peugeot, Nissan and even Ford, to a lesser degree, have all lost out on their market share against the BMW 3 series and Merc C class. Notice both Germans have retained RWD. Only exception is the Audi A4 which, of course, is available with 4 wheel drive. IIRC, the best selling car in class over the last 5 years, is the 3 series. Used to be the Mondeo, but that was a long time ago. Customers are loyal to RWD in that sector.

One other thing; if you bought a Ford in the UK during the 1960s, it was nearly always made in the UK. By the 1980s, that was a long way from true. Some time during the mid 1970s, universally similar pan European models were created for the first time, changing the status quo. This pushed up the price of Ford car parts. In the old days, Ford cars always sold on a reputation of cheap parts. That's a lot less true today, and yet many/most kit car manufacturers remain brand loyal to Ford, without good explanantion. I wrote a post about this on Pistonheads a few years ago, but didn't feel like I got any enlightened responses at the time:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

200Plus Club

10,671 posts

277 months

Sunday 4th March 2018
quotequote all
CanAm said:
That looks vaguely familiar smile I'm surprised lawyers haven't been involved.
Dumb and dumber mode... " I like it a lot"

If that was advertised well, a quality kit and could be built for say £30-40k all up I think.it would sell.

Who's kit is that and what running gear?

autofocus

2,963 posts

217 months

Sunday 4th March 2018
quotequote all
Hi there,

A very interesting thread, thanks to the OP and all the people who have replied so far.

I have followed the kit car industry for many years and like many have said it has changed hugely over time. I am 44 this year and have been going to kit car shows since I was maybe 14 so around 30 years. I remember going to kit car shows at Donington Park Exhibition Centre and paying money for brochures on the cars as the manufacturers only had limited budgets.

Back in 2016 I was lucky enough to be in a position to actually take the plunge and buy a kit. I have always been a huge fan of Caterham and
Lotus 7's so knew this would be the kit for me. I would have quite like to build a Porsche 356 replica but thought this was out of my budget.

Before taking the plunge I look closely at Westfield, Great British Sportscars (GBS) and of course Caterham. To build a Caterham to my spec would have been around £35k which was out of my budget, I was not keen on the chassis and some of the parts on the Westfield so plumped for the GBS Zero.

I decided to skip the whole donor car angle and build my car with pretty much all new parts, well certainly enough for it to be registered as a new car and not on a 'Q' plate.

The factory have been superb so far, from the day I collected my kit in September 2016 until the present day when my car is at the factory being prepared for its IVA. There advice has been great and their service second to none. I am really looking forward to having the car finished, registered and out on the road.

Heres a pic on the day I collected it from the factory



and the day I got it dropped off at the factory



At the moment the car is being resprayed in its final colour scheme with the IVA scheduled for early April.

OP if you are concerned about size take a look at the Zero GT chassis, it offers quite a bit more room than your typical Caterham style car

Regards

Tim

killerferret666

461 posts

187 months

Wednesday 7th March 2018
quotequote all
CanAm said:
That looks vaguely familiar smile I'm surprised lawyers haven't been involved.
I think it was made different enough to stop that from what I understand.

200Plus Club said:
Dumb and dumber mode... " I like it a lot"

If that was advertised well, a quality kit and could be built for say £30-40k all up I think.it would sell.

Who's kit is that and what running gear?
It did cost me in that price range to build it which wasn't bad as I was the first customer to complete one in the world.
Its not so much a kit though as there are no instructions and left a lot to your own devices as its US based and UK Regs are much stricter.

www.ddrmotorsport.com

Its a tubular chassis and im running MR2 gear, I actually fitted a forged engine last year which is good for 550bhp, although im not running that yet.

However there is a choice on the chassis with double wishbone and multiple engine options.
The 2nd one here in the UK is running a 6.2l small chevy block and Porsche gearbox.



I actually know one being built in New Zealand with a Mecedes V12 engine and more development and customisation than I could ever do

if you have a few hours free here's a link to the build part 1 - 25

https://www.drivelife.co.nz/category/automotive-ne...




Edited by killerferret666 on Wednesday 7th March 14:30

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 7th March 2018
quotequote all
PugwasHDJ80 said:
Well it can't be a lightweight 7-alike as i don't fit! i did fit in quantums and cobras though!

Needs a big v8 and lots of torque with a bit of internal space.

Thatnks for the reminder about stoneleigh- its harder with a young family now frown

To be honest, i'm sure i can find lots of kits, its just the surprise i felt when i started seraching for Dax, etc only to find them gone!
Are you sure you won't fit in a 7? I've just sold a dax cobra and bought a wide body Westfield and it's fine (6 foot 3, long legs, 15 stone) and I know a guy that drives a tiger cat and must be 20+ stone

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 7th March 2018
quotequote all
RedAndy said:
- most kits are ugly.
I beg to differ. This is my old cobra and my new westie.

Both infinitely better looking than any mainstream car






Pat H

8,056 posts

255 months

Wednesday 7th March 2018
quotequote all
I'm 48 years old and first took an interest in kit cars back in the mid 1980s.

As a teenager, I was inspired by watching The Prisoner on the telly and decided I wanted a Lotus Seven.

I couldn't afford a Caterham Seven, so back in 1986 ended up building an aluminium bodied Westfield Seven with my Dad.



There were loads of kits to choose from in the 1980s and the industry was buoyant.

Remember Kitcars and Specials magazine?!

After university I had a gap year to fill and ended up working at Spax in 1990. I used to travel the land, visiting kit car manufacturers, speed shops and the like. It was a fascinating job.

At the time there were loads to go at. Without thinking about it too hard, here's a few of them. And there will be loads of howling omissions from this short list.

Westfield's Seven and XI
Caterham
JBA's Falcon
JZR's Trike
Sylva Sryker
GTM
Midas
Marcos
BRA
Dax
Ginetta
Pilgrim
Scamp
Anderson Cub
Foers Ibex
Dutton's Phaeton, Sierra and Melos
Minion's Jackal
Rickman
Jago
Moss
Henson
Status Minus
Clan's Crusader
Nova
NG
Beauford
Eagle
GP Spyder
Scorhill Magic
And a whole host of VW Beach Buggies and Cobras

I remember the Stonleigh show being vast.

Happy days, indeed.

It's very depressing to see how little is left of it all.

drink

Johnny5hoods

499 posts

118 months

Wednesday 7th March 2018
quotequote all
I wonder what could be done to revive the industry. If there was a kit that was as simple to build and as cheap as possible, and was only moderately quick, would people buy it? Maybe mid engined to take advantage of all the FWD donor parts. ISTR Jeremy Philips made a car just like this back in the late 90s and early 2000s. I never seem to see any of them, though. People seemed more interested in front engined cars at the time. Would something like that sell now?

Frankthered

1,619 posts

179 months

Wednesday 7th March 2018
quotequote all
Johnny5hoods said:
I wonder what could be done to revive the industry. If there was a kit that was as simple to build and as cheap as possible, and was only moderately quick, would people buy it? Maybe mid engined to take advantage of all the FWD donor parts. ISTR Jeremy Philips made a car just like this back in the late 90s and early 2000s. I never seem to see any of them, though. People seemed more interested in front engined cars at the time. Would something like that sell now?
Have you ever heard of MEV?

010101

1,305 posts

147 months

Thursday 8th March 2018
quotequote all
Johnny5hoods said:
I wonder what could be done to revive the industry.?
Lots of wealthy people taking up Kit Cars as a hobby.

There might be a problem with convincing them..

RedAndy

1,207 posts

153 months

Thursday 8th March 2018
quotequote all
Equus said:
You don't want an organisation like the RIBA... trust me on this (Director of an Architectural pactice)! yikes
I'm RTPI - trust ME on this - RIBA is wonderful!

RedAndy

1,207 posts

153 months

Thursday 8th March 2018
quotequote all
keirik said:
RedAndy said:
- most kits are ugly.
I beg to differ. This is my old cobra and my new westie. Both infinitely better looking than any mainstream car
If it pleases the court, I'll amend my statement to "most original kit designs are not conventionally attractive, nor even slightly attractive."

Equus

16,769 posts

100 months

Thursday 8th March 2018
quotequote all
RedAndy said:
I'm RTPI - trust ME on this - RIBA is wonderful!
My Planning Director is RTPI... what's the problem with them? They don't seem nearly as far up their own arse as RIBA?

Equus

16,769 posts

100 months

Thursday 8th March 2018
quotequote all
RedAndy said:
If it pleases the court, I'll amend my statement to "most original kit designs are not conventionally attractive, nor even slightly attractive."
And ironically, that includes the original kit car design that half the industry is now dedicated to copying...

456mgt

2,504 posts

265 months

Thursday 8th March 2018
quotequote all
Quite a sad thread this! I was wondering to myself whether electric motors and batteries from the early hybrids & full electrics would find their way into kits. You can pack in a lot of power with low down weight that way. I have an early EV and it's really little more than a kit as a fully built vehicle, so you could definitely do it. Reading this thread though, I guess not!