Whats happened to the Kit car world in the past 8 years?
Discussion
Yipper said:
There is now a lot of social stigma attached to driving a kit car. People know it's not the real thing and you look ridiculous driving one. Years of mockery on Top Gear have killed demand.
Do you really have nothing better to do in life? 10 posts a day of complete drivel....Johnny5hoods said:
I wonder what could be done to revive the industry. If there was a kit that was as simple to build and as cheap as possible, and was only moderately quick, would people buy it? Maybe mid engined to take advantage of all the FWD donor parts. ISTR Jeremy Philips made a car just like this back in the late 90s and early 2000s. I never seem to see any of them, though. People seemed more interested in front engined cars at the time. Would something like that sell now?
The most recent Jeremy Philips designed kit is for sale by Sylva Sports Cars (Now owned by David MacBean) and continues as a fine - handling lightweight sports car for road or track.A slight, but important misread I think James - they are still going and kits are still available.
David said that when he took over Sylva from Jeremy;
“Sylva was effectively mothballed with very little ongoing work and no order book. The market conditions go back a number of years. You are correct Sylva needs a new model for the loyal builders and we will produce one in time”
David said that when he took over Sylva from Jeremy;
“Sylva was effectively mothballed with very little ongoing work and no order book. The market conditions go back a number of years. You are correct Sylva needs a new model for the loyal builders and we will produce one in time”
Mistrale said:
A slight, but important misread I think James - they are still going and kits are still available.
David said that when he took over Sylva from Jeremy;
“Sylva was effectively mothballed with very little ongoing work and no order book. The market conditions go back a number of years. You are correct Sylva needs a new model for the loyal builders and we will produce one in time”
Yes, I think what he meant was that Jeremy had effectively retired (certainly announced his retirement) some time before, so the company hadn't been very active prior to changing hands. David said that when he took over Sylva from Jeremy;
“Sylva was effectively mothballed with very little ongoing work and no order book. The market conditions go back a number of years. You are correct Sylva needs a new model for the loyal builders and we will produce one in time”
Also, Jeremy was never very active at promoting the company - he never attended shows or did much with the website or press promotion, relying on the marque's reputation in racing to sell enough kits for his needs.
The J15/Vectis is a good car and deserves to be modestly successful even in today's limited market.
Yipper said:
There is now a lot of social stigma attached to driving a kit car. People know it's not the real thing and you look ridiculous driving one. Years of mockery on Top Gear have killed demand.
I think some people have always looked down on us a bit. still, that is their loss.Looking back at some of the reasons I built a kitcar and comparing them to the situation today I get a lot of the results already mentioned here.
1) I built my Westfield because I wanted to build a car - Not many people, especially the youngsters are into making things these days. I used to go to the annual Model Engineering Exhibition at Wembley in the 80's. This is now a shadow of it's former self, though going now makes me feel one of the youngsters there even though I'm 50 next month. Mobile phones, social media etc have contributed.
2) Cheap way to get a "performance" car - With improved designs you can pick up something relatively cheap that will now corner and accelerate pretty well.
3) I wanted an affordable soft top - lots of MX5s & MGFs etc out there at fairly cheap prices.
4) I wanted a bit of individuality - People don't seem to be bothered about that sort of thing anymore.
5) Lack of choice - For the type of car I wanted there was only really an MG Midget, MGB Roadster, Triumph Spitfire or if I lived on in a tent on bread and water for a few years, a TR6. All of these would probably have required a fair bit of work. Lots of cheap fun stuff out there now - if you can afford the insurance.
Other factors against kit cars,
Safety - 30 years ago in it's heyday the offerings were only competing with Cortinas, Sierras, Cavaliers etc. Airbags were new fangled things as were ABS and a host of other life saving features that have come to be standard fit.
Size - The diminutive size of the Westfield has never really bothered me but now with even Fiestas being fairly large I can see people being put off.
IVA ? Not sure on that. I see this as a good thing. When I took the Westfield to the VRO on the back of a truck for registration the truck driver said he thought I'd done a good job then went on to tell me some horror stories of some of the homebuilds he'd taken to the VRO.
Donor car complexity - I could probably rebuild my Pinto with my eyes shut but lets face it it's not that complicated. I'm not sure how I would cope with something "new" with an ECU. Ah, the electronic gizmos that go with it that push up the price even more.
New build Houses/Flats - If you are lucky you get a drive the length of your car. No space to sprawl dismembered donor cars etc.
Cash, lack of - with house prices gone daft, not many people have the cash to do it anymore. I still remember in 1992 staring at the pile of bits in the garage after I had unpacked the Transit van and thought to myself "Bl**dy hell, I've just spent £4,800 (about £8,000 now) on a car in bits and it's going to be a while before I can drive it to the pub to show my mates". Now with youngsters worrying about having to save 10s of thousands for a deposit on a house and the high car insurance premiums it's not going to happen.
I guess it was fun whilst it lasted
I agree with the majority of the above.
But one other reason has been missed. The rise of the classic car following.
Many of those that might have built a kit have, instead, turned to restoring a classic/older car. Often something from their youth but usually something that has a chance of rising in value over time.
They can be financed (completed and sometimes partially) and there are no new rules to comply with. Often they have no RFL to pay and cheap club insurance. Plenty of shows, tours and events to take your pride and joy.
And the image is better received by the majority.
I have been lucky enough to build my dream kit but I suspect the decline will continue until there are just a handful of firms left.
But one other reason has been missed. The rise of the classic car following.
Many of those that might have built a kit have, instead, turned to restoring a classic/older car. Often something from their youth but usually something that has a chance of rising in value over time.
They can be financed (completed and sometimes partially) and there are no new rules to comply with. Often they have no RFL to pay and cheap club insurance. Plenty of shows, tours and events to take your pride and joy.
And the image is better received by the majority.
I have been lucky enough to build my dream kit but I suspect the decline will continue until there are just a handful of firms left.
Thinking about it, there is a (relatively) popular RWD donor car: the Mazda MX5.
Although not made in the numbers of the Mk2 Escort or Cortina/Sierra, it is this country's best selling convertible. And, more importantly, many older NBs (Mk2/2.5) are expiring due to rust. I hear MOT testers have been made aware in the last year or so of the catastrophically rusty front chassis rails on older Mk2.5s; an issue I understand is hard to see and may have gone unnoticed for many years. Now, all of a sudden, many Mk2.5s are being forced off the road and are not economically viable restoration projects. Plus, unlike the Escort/Cortina, the MX5 is often a second car once in the hands of the second or third owner. Consequently, there are some older ones with maybe only 60K, available as MOT failures for a few hundred quid. A 1.8 has a fizzy free-revving twin cam engine with 146 horse power, and the Sport even has a slip diff and 6 speed box. Plus, Mazdas are mechanically quite reliable/durable cars.
To anyone wanting to build a kit car, but worried they've missed the boat to do so without spending a fortune on mainly new parts, this is a good solution. The time is now. Strike while the iron is hot. There are a few nice kit cars built from the MX5 as a single donor. If people would just lose their obsession with avoiding Q plates and using all new parts, the average price of building a kit car would come down, and maybe things would pick up a bit again. Oh, and I wish people would be happy with more modest performance instead of saying, "How much power is enough? Always more". 25 years ago, I reckon the honest average 0-60 time of a seven type derivative (Striker, Westfield etc) was perhaps something like 7 seconds. In a very small lightweight car with a high impression of speed and low gearing, modest acceleration should be enough. We don't need a facelift in the first three gears to be having fun. We need accessible, highly exploitable performance best enjoyed between 20 and 60 MPH. Think Autosolo, not Nurburgring.
Although not made in the numbers of the Mk2 Escort or Cortina/Sierra, it is this country's best selling convertible. And, more importantly, many older NBs (Mk2/2.5) are expiring due to rust. I hear MOT testers have been made aware in the last year or so of the catastrophically rusty front chassis rails on older Mk2.5s; an issue I understand is hard to see and may have gone unnoticed for many years. Now, all of a sudden, many Mk2.5s are being forced off the road and are not economically viable restoration projects. Plus, unlike the Escort/Cortina, the MX5 is often a second car once in the hands of the second or third owner. Consequently, there are some older ones with maybe only 60K, available as MOT failures for a few hundred quid. A 1.8 has a fizzy free-revving twin cam engine with 146 horse power, and the Sport even has a slip diff and 6 speed box. Plus, Mazdas are mechanically quite reliable/durable cars.
To anyone wanting to build a kit car, but worried they've missed the boat to do so without spending a fortune on mainly new parts, this is a good solution. The time is now. Strike while the iron is hot. There are a few nice kit cars built from the MX5 as a single donor. If people would just lose their obsession with avoiding Q plates and using all new parts, the average price of building a kit car would come down, and maybe things would pick up a bit again. Oh, and I wish people would be happy with more modest performance instead of saying, "How much power is enough? Always more". 25 years ago, I reckon the honest average 0-60 time of a seven type derivative (Striker, Westfield etc) was perhaps something like 7 seconds. In a very small lightweight car with a high impression of speed and low gearing, modest acceleration should be enough. We don't need a facelift in the first three gears to be having fun. We need accessible, highly exploitable performance best enjoyed between 20 and 60 MPH. Think Autosolo, not Nurburgring.
A friend of mine built an Eagle ss, I think he really wanted a Nova though with the hydraulic roof.
Then about a 15 years ago I acquired a jaguar xjss 3.6 manual kit + car part done, but before I really started into it I was offered an E30 convertible for rather less than I'd have to sink into the xjss to get than half way done, so I just bought that and sold the kit.
Never regretted it either, everything already thought out, designed and actually finished. Fast forward to today and unless building a special like a Caterham cars of all types are so cheap it would be rude not to buy them. I.e. for £1000 (ref bargain barge thread) I can be driving another car instead of lying underneath the pieces in the garage wondering if there was an easier way.
I'd do a camper conversion these days, that's the closest I'd get I think, although putting a hybrid engine in a van would be neat.
Then about a 15 years ago I acquired a jaguar xjss 3.6 manual kit + car part done, but before I really started into it I was offered an E30 convertible for rather less than I'd have to sink into the xjss to get than half way done, so I just bought that and sold the kit.
Never regretted it either, everything already thought out, designed and actually finished. Fast forward to today and unless building a special like a Caterham cars of all types are so cheap it would be rude not to buy them. I.e. for £1000 (ref bargain barge thread) I can be driving another car instead of lying underneath the pieces in the garage wondering if there was an easier way.
I'd do a camper conversion these days, that's the closest I'd get I think, although putting a hybrid engine in a van would be neat.
Equus said:
RedAndy said:
I'm RTPI - trust ME on this - RIBA is wonderful!
My Planning Director is RTPI... what's the problem with them? They don't seem nearly as far up their own arse as RIBA?Not sure I get these comments about "image". The number of waves I get on the road, groups of people gathering around the car wherever I park it, small kids stopping to watch as I go past, all suggest to me that there is no image problem with kits per se. On the contrary, people are interested in something different. And it's on a Q plate, the horror.
RedAndy said:
no they aren't like that, they are just weak. as an outsider RIBA seems like ferrari - arrogant but thats cos they are good. The RTPI is one of those start up supercar companies that promises to "show the establishment how it should be done" but never actually deliver. It's all style over substance.
Ah, ok, fair enough!Swapsies?
CrutyRammers said:
Not sure I get these comments about "image". The number of waves I get on the road, groups of people gathering around the car wherever I park it, small kids stopping to watch as I go past, all suggest to me that there is no image problem with kits per se. On the contrary, people are interested in something different. And it's on a Q plate, the horror.
What it boils down to is like a lot of things: I like the fact YOU have one, but I wouldn't want one MYSELF?Gassing Station | Kit Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff