Stoneleigh 2007
Discussion
grahambell said:
Mark Benson said:
The chap who bought the design off him appears to have junked the spaceframe in preference of a few tubes and some sealing wax. As I said earlier, I was appalled at what the vendor has done to such a unique and historic car.
Interesting info Mark. I remember it as the Lyncar when the styling buck was shown at Stoneleigh all those years ago. When the project's current owner bought it, it still had the aluminium chassis (which I think was actually monocoque rather than spaceframe) which he sold on.
The reason for the new steel spaceframe is that it's simply a more practical proposition for a road going kit car - which is why many GT40 replicas use them instead of authentic rivetted ally monocoques.
You might be appalled by what the new owner has done to the car, but I think he deserves credit for finally turning the concept into a production reality. OK, the end result isn't as sophisticated as the original, but then it's a damn sight cheaper and designed so that people like us can build one at home.
Think I better just clarify that regardless of the history of the car (which was good reading - thanks Mark) my gripe is with the chassis.
There are some fundamental flaws in the design - some major load bearing members do not feed into node points, for example. This is the first and most basic principle of a spaceframe chassis. Without adequate resolution of forces, the frame is inefficient at best and (more often) plain dangerous.
If the structure relies on material strength rather than loads passing throughout the structure at node points, it will be weaker by magnitudes. Not even considering stiffness here, this is basic structural integrity.
My train of thought is that if the chassis design is fundamentally flawed, where else has the designer not applied basic engineering principles?
One other point and something that not only this design is guilty of, which is that I will never trust my life to a bolted-on rollover bar. If there's a rollbar in the body, take it out and weld it integral to the chassis and put an inner cover over it if you want it to be hidden.
It's far easier for a few bolts to shear in a rollover accident than for a full welded-in CDS rollbar - preferably one that extends to the chassis floor, this is personal protection we're talking about here - to fracture, bend or otherwise come adrift.
As ever, hats off to anyone with the guts and application to launch a new kit. It's a mighty hard industry to break into unless you follow the sevenesque herd, at least to begin with.
But there's limits as to what I personally see as saleable to a public who generally trust the manufacturer's design and the SVA man's assessment of good engineering...
Edited by FNG on Tuesday 8th May 18:24
Dissapointed by the fact that i couldn't attend Stoneleigh, after I had booked a 3 day stay.........
,
After reading the various posts, the impression I get is that the expectations were higher than reality.... .
I did see quite a few new kits mentioned , but the feedback from some of you guys, is mixed ...........
What is the feeling/feedback/perception of the kit industry, after seeing the show ?
The future holds.........what for this industry? where is the industry heading? any new niches considered by kitcar manufacturers?
Best of show new Kitcar was in your opinion?
Worst of show was ?
Cheers
Italo
, After reading the various posts, the impression I get is that the expectations were higher than reality.... .
I did see quite a few new kits mentioned , but the feedback from some of you guys, is mixed ...........
What is the feeling/feedback/perception of the kit industry, after seeing the show ?
The future holds.........what for this industry? where is the industry heading? any new niches considered by kitcar manufacturers?
Best of show new Kitcar was in your opinion?
Worst of show was ?
Cheers
Italo
anyone catch the name of the company doing the ropey Ferrari, Lambo and Land Rover replica's - I meant to jot it down to ensure I never mistakenly bought something from them but forgot to!!!
IMO some of the worst glass work I've seen in kits in a long time, coming from a company that had a very impressive big rig to shift it all about it! more ripples than a boating lake.
IMO some of the worst glass work I've seen in kits in a long time, coming from a company that had a very impressive big rig to shift it all about it! more ripples than a boating lake.
fuoriserie said:
What is the feeling/feedback/perception of the kit industry, after seeing the show ?
The future holds.........what for this industry? where is the industry heading? any new niches considered by kitcar manufacturers?
Best of show new Kitcar was in your opinion?
Worst of show was ?
Cheers
Italo
The future holds.........what for this industry? where is the industry heading? any new niches considered by kitcar manufacturers?
Best of show new Kitcar was in your opinion?
Worst of show was ?
Cheers
Italo
Hi Italo,
There seemed to be fewer manufacturers than ever this year, which doesn't bode well. On the other hand, Ultima and Adrenaline Motorsport do seem to be selling well abroad (not Italy though
) and GTM at least seemed to have taken orders as the show. As you predicted some time ago Italo, the Atom-like exo-skeleton look is starting to gather pace with two such cars being debuted - the MEV Rocket and the 3-seater VStorm. Guess that could be a new niche. Was expecting the GTM 40TR to be there too, but they're still working on the production version.
Best new car for me (not that there were many) would probably be the Rocket or VStorm. Worst would probably be the revised Eagle SS (the white car FNG mentioned). Didn't take a close look at it but frankly didn't want to.
I'm kind of glad you weren't there, Italo. Simply because if you were, I missed you!!!
My favourite new car was the Nu Snake. 'Cobra-if-you-squint' based on the FWD Mondeo!!
Worst??
Hmmm..
Probably, as Graham says, the Eagle SS reborn. Loved the foam and MDF Capri-esque rear window louvres.
Oh and Graham...
You know it's coming don't you....
Here it is......
My favourite new car was the Nu Snake. 'Cobra-if-you-squint' based on the FWD Mondeo!!
Worst??
Hmmm..
Probably, as Graham says, the Eagle SS reborn. Loved the foam and MDF Capri-esque rear window louvres.
Oh and Graham...
You know it's coming don't you....
Here it is......
Wouldn't be surprised if one day you came back to your Libra and found someone had let all the tyres down. 
fuoriserie said:
After reading the various posts, the impression I get is that the expectations were higher than reality....
I think my expectations were probably higher than reality, I did leave after a few hours disappointed overall. Sorry to say that none of the new arrivals really stood out.
fuoriserie said:
I did see quite a few new kits mentioned , but the feedback from some of you guys, is mixed ...........
Don't take too much notice of me. I'm an automotive engineer who's been close to the kit industry and I firmly know how I think it should be done. Sometimes stuff works despite not being terribly elegant, I struggle with this concept!
fuoriserie said:
What is the feeling/feedback/perception of the kit industry, after seeing the show ?
The future holds.........what for this industry? where is the industry heading? any new niches considered by kitcar manufacturers?
The future holds.........what for this industry? where is the industry heading? any new niches considered by kitcar manufacturers?
I would say there's a bit of room for some well resolved alternative designs that don't follow the powertrain layout of Sevens but I really think the front engine / rear drive market is cornered already - as I said before there were Seven clones everywhere you looked despite only half the manufacturers being in attendence...
We've just seen the MEV Rocket and VStorm launching but I think there's room for more in the mid-engined market, something other than exoskeletons. The snag is they just have to be cheap - a build budget of £15k is too much - you can get a fabulous Elise for that money so with that in mind it's not surprising there's not a lot of midrange kits out there at the moment.
I really do think the relative cheapness and practicality of secondhand Elises and VX220s these days has hit the kit industry hard. I've got a kit in the garage and really want a Radical Clubsport as a track car but even I'm looking at a 111S instead.
I was thinking of a Murtaya or even a Libra instead, something to do everything, but ultimately an Elise and a 4y/o Mondeo would pretty much do it for the same cash and minimal grief. The manufacturers must be suffering, they're not the only enthusiast's niche out there any more.
fuoriserie said:
Best of show new Kitcar was in your opinion?
Not really my thing but pleased to see it - Tiger ERA30.
If I'd seen the Lancia 037 replica that would've won on looks alone - was it there? It looks utterly fantastic.
Although I'd be scared stiff to build on a '70s Lancia floorpan... there's a car that needs a full set of GRP panels...
fuoriserie said:
Worst of show was ?
TEAC (Eagle) SS. The sort of thing that was starting to give kit cars a bad name in the '80s never mind now. I really couldn't believe my eyes. I'm wishing I'd taken a pic now so I could post it up and illustrate the full horror of it.
If it wasn't for that, it'd be the Xotic Replicas cars - any of them. MR2-based Diablo or a pseudo-Rangie Sport? D'ya mind if I don't...
Absolute favourite car of the show - probably a slick-shod Gardner Douglas T70. Dribble. Even better than a GT40 replica in Gulf colours. I think.
I think the Murtaya suits you very well Graham!!!
I will be throwing the car through that same chicane on the 19th at the Japfest show taking place at Combe. With the new engine run in and mapped by then I will be aiming for some spectacular angles of dangle!!
I thought that Stoneleigh was pretty good actually.
Granted I did not get much of a look round as the four of us on the AMS stand were stacked out all weekend (with the exception of the last hour or so on Monday)but the atmosphere seemed good and the manufacturers that I spoke to all seemed busy (or certainly were putting on a very brave face if they were not).
The magazines reported a strong show as well (I had a good chat with Steve Hole and Ian Stent, did not see anyone from Kit Car) with Ian and Steve both saying that public attitude was great and Ian took a large number of new subscriptions.
I was disappointed to not get more time to look round as there were several cars I wanted to get a good look at, in particular the Rocket seemed interesting from a few feet away, the 037 replica is of interest to me as a rallying anorak (not sure about the donor choice though, authentic but is it available?) and the new Sebring was one I wanted to see but did not even get a glimpse at.
Hopefully some of these guys will bring their cars to Brands Hatch, even if only on a static basis.
Also chuffed to meet some PH people, Andy GTT and others. Good to get names to internet ID's and hope to see you all again very soon. Get off the computer, back to the garage and finish your projects!!!
Neil.
I will be throwing the car through that same chicane on the 19th at the Japfest show taking place at Combe. With the new engine run in and mapped by then I will be aiming for some spectacular angles of dangle!!
I thought that Stoneleigh was pretty good actually.
Granted I did not get much of a look round as the four of us on the AMS stand were stacked out all weekend (with the exception of the last hour or so on Monday)but the atmosphere seemed good and the manufacturers that I spoke to all seemed busy (or certainly were putting on a very brave face if they were not).
The magazines reported a strong show as well (I had a good chat with Steve Hole and Ian Stent, did not see anyone from Kit Car) with Ian and Steve both saying that public attitude was great and Ian took a large number of new subscriptions.
I was disappointed to not get more time to look round as there were several cars I wanted to get a good look at, in particular the Rocket seemed interesting from a few feet away, the 037 replica is of interest to me as a rallying anorak (not sure about the donor choice though, authentic but is it available?) and the new Sebring was one I wanted to see but did not even get a glimpse at.
Hopefully some of these guys will bring their cars to Brands Hatch, even if only on a static basis.
Also chuffed to meet some PH people, Andy GTT and others. Good to get names to internet ID's and hope to see you all again very soon. Get off the computer, back to the garage and finish your projects!!!
Neil.
FNG said:
I would say there's a bit of room for some well resolved alternative designs that don't follow the powertrain layout of Sevens but I really think the front engine / rear drive market is cornered already.
We've just seen the MEV Rocket and VStorm launching but I think there's room for more in the mid-engined market, something other than exoskeletons.
We've just seen the MEV Rocket and VStorm launching but I think there's room for more in the mid-engined market, something other than exoskeletons.
There have been a few attempts in the past, including the Mini based Status from the 70s and the Vauxhall based Cyclone from the 90s, but for some reason they've never really caught on. Herd instinct possibly?
Always thought the Cyclone was a great car that deserved more success. Far more practical than a Seven and fantastic performer too.
Edited by grahambell on Wednesday 9th May 19:31
Exactly Graham, something in the middle ground between exoskeletons and Libras surely has an appeal.
I really want something that uses modern FWD running gear in a mid application and an enclosed body.
Had a good look at the Riot the other day and that looks very competent using bike power (weight distribution is pretty much ideal left to right, fore and aft, and even vertically) but on the car-donor version, the FWD engine install moves the CofG a long way rearward and upward.
A lot of these middy ideas seem to end up looking like buggies or too-wide single seaters and personally that does little for me. What about putting together something that looks more like a sports car?
People go mad for the Raffo Belva and the Libra etc so develop that kind of format, leave off the roof and doors, preferably with more modern creases to give it some longevity and some short overhangs to give a real statement of intent and lowest polar moment, and to my mind you have ten years' supply of kits to an eager market.
I really want something that uses modern FWD running gear in a mid application and an enclosed body.
Had a good look at the Riot the other day and that looks very competent using bike power (weight distribution is pretty much ideal left to right, fore and aft, and even vertically) but on the car-donor version, the FWD engine install moves the CofG a long way rearward and upward.
A lot of these middy ideas seem to end up looking like buggies or too-wide single seaters and personally that does little for me. What about putting together something that looks more like a sports car?
People go mad for the Raffo Belva and the Libra etc so develop that kind of format, leave off the roof and doors, preferably with more modern creases to give it some longevity and some short overhangs to give a real statement of intent and lowest polar moment, and to my mind you have ten years' supply of kits to an eager market.
I was there both days and it was great... spent most of Sunday looking around the outside as I knew Monday would be a wash out.
Overall the show was great, but it did seem to die a bit on the Monday...... maybe most telling was that the best part for me was meeting everyone and catching up with old mates.
For me Company of the show has to be Adrenalin Motorsport with their car the Murtoya and their association with the Toniq R.... both extremelly impressive (and Tempting) kits IMO..... also great to meet you Neil, I am genuinelly impressed with your car.
Shocker of the show for me was a mid engined car that had had its chasis dangerously modified IMO, with rear wishbones even my 5year old daughter would have been embarased with.... There can be no excuse for presenting stuff that bad even if its just chucked together for the show (as I pray it was). The body of that Range rover was also shocking (but at least not dangerous), will anyone really be tempted with that quality of body panels?
Best looking car of show has to be the RCR's, and I am not talking about the bodywork..... I'd buy some of their stuff just to hang it on the wall, billet alloy! Hmmmmm.
My final thought has to be that we (as in our forum community) should really sort some kind of formal meet at these events.... I was very dissapointed to find I had missed some people that I really wanted to chat to who I have met online. I'd suggest next time we should organise a large BBQ at say 2pm one day, would also save loads of cash (if we all chipped in).
Overall the show was great, but it did seem to die a bit on the Monday...... maybe most telling was that the best part for me was meeting everyone and catching up with old mates.
For me Company of the show has to be Adrenalin Motorsport with their car the Murtoya and their association with the Toniq R.... both extremelly impressive (and Tempting) kits IMO..... also great to meet you Neil, I am genuinelly impressed with your car.
Shocker of the show for me was a mid engined car that had had its chasis dangerously modified IMO, with rear wishbones even my 5year old daughter would have been embarased with.... There can be no excuse for presenting stuff that bad even if its just chucked together for the show (as I pray it was). The body of that Range rover was also shocking (but at least not dangerous), will anyone really be tempted with that quality of body panels?
Best looking car of show has to be the RCR's, and I am not talking about the bodywork..... I'd buy some of their stuff just to hang it on the wall, billet alloy! Hmmmmm.
My final thought has to be that we (as in our forum community) should really sort some kind of formal meet at these events.... I was very dissapointed to find I had missed some people that I really wanted to chat to who I have met online. I'd suggest next time we should organise a large BBQ at say 2pm one day, would also save loads of cash (if we all chipped in).
Oh boy FNG, I am working a project that, uses the MGF as a donor, but reduces the weight by half, 550kg with engine, fits that sort of description, but its hard work, even though it had a fortune spent on developing it in the past to be launched as a production car (350k!). Prototype on the road, doing the rounds at track days etc.
Looking at a completed build under 10k, chassis and bodies in stock, but little interest, probably because I am not a big company etc. I think a few will end up on the track because of the Designer (Frank Costin)
Websites in my Profile, car looks much better in the flesh, it was at Detling in the Carpark.
I suspect I am not on my own, I know quite a few others beavering away on projects, but when your paying for everything yourself it takes a lot of time
Thanks
Joe T
Looking at a completed build under 10k, chassis and bodies in stock, but little interest, probably because I am not a big company etc. I think a few will end up on the track because of the Designer (Frank Costin)
Websites in my Profile, car looks much better in the flesh, it was at Detling in the Carpark.
I suspect I am not on my own, I know quite a few others beavering away on projects, but when your paying for everything yourself it takes a lot of time
Thanks
Joe T
Edited by Joe T on Wednesday 9th May 20:43
I really missed seeing you guys, and having the chance to put some faces to the names......but it will be for another time.
We should all meet once, around a nice BBQ and if somebody likes it, a nice italian pasta dish I can volunteer to cook, with some good red wine or beer..., and have everyone in a good mood.......
Great and very informative feedback, from all of you, and it's nice to know that the industry is slowly moving into new niches, and I really believe that in a few years, let's say 2009-2010 we're really going to see a lot of new designs.
I also think that mid-engine cars, in all forms and fashion, from small to big, will gather momentum in the years to come, and could become the next Locost niche.
I also think that a few new rebodies, just like the Veranti and the Retroforza, based on those excellent platforms, that are in my opinion, the Mx5 and the Mr2, could create a new niche.
Nobody is considering Suv or 4x4 ? any reason why ? I like the DAKAR conversions, and they are a great concept. maybe a few modern designs could help....
I guess there is good news ahead for this industry..........
We should all meet once, around a nice BBQ and if somebody likes it, a nice italian pasta dish I can volunteer to cook, with some good red wine or beer..., and have everyone in a good mood.......
Great and very informative feedback, from all of you, and it's nice to know that the industry is slowly moving into new niches, and I really believe that in a few years, let's say 2009-2010 we're really going to see a lot of new designs.
I also think that mid-engine cars, in all forms and fashion, from small to big, will gather momentum in the years to come, and could become the next Locost niche.
I also think that a few new rebodies, just like the Veranti and the Retroforza, based on those excellent platforms, that are in my opinion, the Mx5 and the Mr2, could create a new niche.
Nobody is considering Suv or 4x4 ? any reason why ? I like the DAKAR conversions, and they are a great concept. maybe a few modern designs could help....
I guess there is good news ahead for this industry..........
andygtt said:
I was there both days and it was great... spent most of Sunday looking around the outside as I knew Monday would be a wash out.
Overall the show was great, but it did seem to die a bit on the Monday...... maybe most telling was that the best part for me was meeting everyone and catching up with old mates.
For me Company of the show has to be Adrenalin Motorsport with their car the Murtoya and their association with the Toniq R.... both extremelly impressive (and Tempting) kits IMO..... also great to meet you Neil, I am genuinelly impressed with your car.
Shocker of the show for me was a mid engined car that had had its chasis dangerously modified IMO, with rear wishbones even my 5year old daughter would have been embarased with.... There can be no excuse for presenting stuff that bad even if its just chucked together for the show (as I pray it was). The body of that Range rover was also shocking (but at least not dangerous), will anyone really be tempted with that quality of body panels?
Best looking car of show has to be the RCR's, and I am not talking about the bodywork..... I'd buy some of their stuff just to hang it on the wall, billet alloy! Hmmmmm.
My final thought has to be that we (as in our forum community) should really sort some kind of formal meet at these events.... I was very dissapointed to find I had missed some people that I really wanted to chat to who I have met online. I'd suggest next time we should organise a large BBQ at say 2pm one day, would also save loads of cash (if we all chipped in).
Overall the show was great, but it did seem to die a bit on the Monday...... maybe most telling was that the best part for me was meeting everyone and catching up with old mates.
For me Company of the show has to be Adrenalin Motorsport with their car the Murtoya and their association with the Toniq R.... both extremelly impressive (and Tempting) kits IMO..... also great to meet you Neil, I am genuinelly impressed with your car.
Shocker of the show for me was a mid engined car that had had its chasis dangerously modified IMO, with rear wishbones even my 5year old daughter would have been embarased with.... There can be no excuse for presenting stuff that bad even if its just chucked together for the show (as I pray it was). The body of that Range rover was also shocking (but at least not dangerous), will anyone really be tempted with that quality of body panels?
Best looking car of show has to be the RCR's, and I am not talking about the bodywork..... I'd buy some of their stuff just to hang it on the wall, billet alloy! Hmmmmm.
My final thought has to be that we (as in our forum community) should really sort some kind of formal meet at these events.... I was very dissapointed to find I had missed some people that I really wanted to chat to who I have met online. I'd suggest next time we should organise a large BBQ at say 2pm one day, would also save loads of cash (if we all chipped in).
Good ideas all round.
Next significant meeting totalkitcar at Brands?
Agreed on the RCR stuff. The only thing I'd be bothered about with those chassis is how much time I'd spend polishing compared to driving... very impressive and the ally welding was a work of art.
I had a right good look over it but I'm afraid a $44k complete kit price is just too far for me. I wish it wasn't so, but hey ho!
FNG said:
People go mad for the Raffo Belva and the Libra etc so develop that kind of format, leave off the roof and doors, preferably with more modern creases to give it some longevity and some short overhangs to give a real statement of intent and lowest polar moment, and to my mind you have ten years' supply of kits to an eager market.
I totally agree with you on this idea, but it was done in the past with all those Mini derivatives, that most of us didn't know about ,or forgot that some of them still exist today!!!!!!.!
Check these pictures, that have very interesting design ideas, that can be updated and incoporated to a new mid-engine design, apart fron the blue, that is manufactured today, and the last Costin design......
Great little mid-engine cars, with a more affordable build price.
[URL=http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h23]
[/URL] [URL=http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h23]
[/URL] [URL=http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h23]
[/URL] [URL=http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h23]
[/URL] [URL=http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h23]
[/URL] [URL=http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h23]
[/URL] Edited by fuoriserie on Wednesday 9th May 21:35
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