Aeon Epona

[singlecoil]

slomax said:

singlecoil said:

I, too, am open to 'sensible offers' for any of my stuff apart from my wife and my cat.

£2m for the cat...?

I'm joking of course

There are some things, Keats, which to an Englishman are more important than money. Get that word out to Camp Freddie.

[Ferg]

jeffw said:

Ferg said:

jeffw said:

Basically........stuff.

That's a shame, Gaz.. Hope you get a taker! When are you two tying the knot then??

Err, I cut and pasted the advert from locostbuilders.

Ah. LOL!! I didn't get that at all. I thought Gaz was on someone else's login....what ACTUALLY happened was so much more plausible!!

[singlecoil]

jeffw said:

So what's it worth then...£1K, £5K, £10K or more ??

If you look at it as a incomplete kit car with no body then 3K ish. As an amazing project it would be worth £xxxx....no idea. Certainly there would be significant money to be spent on the development and the building of the prototype prior to being able to sell one (£20-30K ???). Lets assume an outlay of £25K plus the cost to buy the project (£15K ???) to get to the point of having the prototype through IVA and to be in a position to sell cars.

Lets say £40K to be able to sell a car. Profit margin per car ....£3K maybe (on the high side I would guess) so you would need to sell 14 cars before breaking even. I think I'll pass...

Another way of putting that question would be "what's it worth as" where the 'as' asks for a definition of what basis it is being valued on. If we leave the chassis etc out of it, and concentrate on the model and the IP rights, then I would say that as a project by a young designer showing what he can do, then it is worth a great deal, to him. I daresay that anyone who was looking for a designer for another projject would be impressed with it, and it's a marvellous thing to have on a CV or in a portfolio.

If we ask what it is worth as an economically feasible project to an aspiring or current kit car builder who needs to make money on it, then I would have to say that I don't think it is worth anything at all, in the current kit car market and overall economic context.

And the reason? It's going to be too expensive to take into production, and if and when it is in production then it will not sell in large enough quantities at the price it will need to be in order to make money.

Edited by singlecoil on Monday 10th January 21:20

[groomi]

singlecoil said:

jeffw said:

So what's it worth then...£1K, £5K, £10K or more ??

If you look at it as a incomplete kit car with no body then 3K ish. As an amazing project it would be worth £xxxx....no idea. Certainly there would be significant money to be spent on the development and the building of the prototype prior to being able to sell one (£20-30K ???). Lets assume an outlay of £25K plus the cost to buy the project (£15K ???) to get to the point of having the prototype through IVA and to be in a position to sell cars.

Lets say £40K to be able to sell a car. Profit margin per car ....£3K maybe (on the high side I would guess) so you would need to sell 14 cars before breaking even. I think I'll pass...

Another way of putting that question would be "what's it worth as" where the 'as' asks for a definition of what basis it is being valued on. If we leave the chassis etc out of it, and concentrate on the model and the IP rights, then I would say that as a project by a young designer showing what he can do, then it is worth a great deal, to him. I daresay that anyone who was looking for a designer for another projject would be impressed with it, and it's a marvellous thing to have on a CV or in a portfolio.

If we ask what it is worth as an economically feasible project to an aspiring or current kit car builder who needs to make money on it, then I would have to say that I don't think it is worth anything at all, in the current kit car market and overall economic context.

And the reason? It's going to be too expensive to take into production, and if and when it is in production then it will not sell in large enough quantities at the price it will need to be in order to make money.

Edited by singlecoil on Monday 10th January 21:20

Agreed. The original concept of fitting it to a seven-style chassis had some legs, ideally as a rebody of a Caterfield.

As it is, it's a degree show final project with some (a lot) of extra hours thrown in, but not really progressed any nearer towards a real car.

[Frankthered]

singlecoil said:

slomax said:

singlecoil said:

I, too, am open to 'sensible offers' for any of my stuff apart from my wife and my cat.

£2m for the cat...?

I'm joking of course

There are some things, Keats, which to an Englishman are more important than money. Get that word out to Camp Freddie.

Nice quote, brought a smile to my face!

Maybe someone should buy the Epona project and blow the bl**dy doors off!

[singlecoil]

Frankthered said:

singlecoil said:

slomax said:

singlecoil said:

I, too, am open to 'sensible offers' for any of my stuff apart from my wife and my cat.

£2m for the cat...?

I'm joking of course

There are some things, Keats, which to an Englishman are more important than money. Get that word out to Camp Freddie.

Nice quote, brought a smile to my face!

Maybe someone should buy the Epona project and blow the bl**dy doors off!

Funnily enough, probably not a bad idea, as it's the doors that are by far the largest single problem with it (economically speaking). Maybe instead it could have transparent gullwings made of polycarbonate that would just sit in recesses fitted with suitable seals. I expect ouyt Italian fried could come up with something.

[GTRene]

it could have this type of doors



in fact the Epona looks a little bit on that Belgian only supercar the Gillet Vertigo
here the mk5





or here there older model

[GTRene]

epona



gillet vertigo

[andygtt]

singlecoil said:

locostbuilders advert said said:

I am open to sensible offers (for the Epona project)

Gaz.

Well, there's a surprise (not the fact that it's for sale, just that he doesn't want to put a price on it, and would sooner take the easy option of waiting for the offers to roll in, some of which, no doubt, will be considered not sensible).


I, too, am open to 'sensible offers' for any of my stuff apart from my wife and my cat.

as someone in the industry who must appreciate the challenges of coming up with a design and how much work it is to get these things going, and who had also got upset by other posting unconstructive stuff on your threads about the kit industry etc, Id have thought you would have posted a more constructive comment.

Maybe some insight into how you would value your own project, or alternative ways to get the project going?

Im going to be very dissapointed if this falls between the cracks and doesn't happen

[singlecoil]

andygtt said:

singlecoil said:

locostbuilders advert said said:

I am open to sensible offers (for the Epona project)

Gaz.

Well, there's a surprise (not the fact that it's for sale, just that he doesn't want to put a price on it, and would sooner take the easy option of waiting for the offers to roll in, some of which, no doubt, will be considered not sensible).


I, too, am open to 'sensible offers' for any of my stuff apart from my wife and my cat.

as someone in the industry who must appreciate the challenges of coming up with a design and how much work it is to get these things going, and who had also got upset by other posting unconstructive stuff on your threads about the kit industry etc, Id have thought you would have posted a more constructive comment.

Yes, perhaps some explanation is called for. It's nothing to do with kit cars, BTW, it's the very idea of advertising anything and then saying "open to sensible offers" that bugs me, wherever I see it. It's about the most pointless, time-wasting thing that one could possibly say. It's up to the owner of (whatever it is) to set the price, or to start an auction. The owner is the person who knows whatever the item for sale is worth to him, and that would be a good starting point for setting a price. Then it's up to interested buyers to make contact and negotiate.

andygtt said:

Maybe some insight into how you would value your own project, or alternative ways to get the project going?

Im going to be very dissapointed if this falls between the cracks and doesn't happen

The last thing anybody should consider when trying to set a price is what it cost him to buy or make originally. He must decide on the basis of whatever he is prepared to let it go for. Then, if the sale isn't urgent, he can advertise it for somewhat more than that, and he will have some negotiating room if he gets an enquirer.

As I and other have hinted at above, there is no apparent commercial context at present for this project, and I can't imagine anyone taking it on even if they didn't have to pay anything at all for it. His best bet, I think, would be to offer it on a royalty basis (which I'm guessing was the deal with Aeon)

[spaximus]

The problem with this car would be the cost of production to buyer ratio. With say an Ultima it is special so commands a premium, with this car it looks lovely but who would buy it? Clearly Aeon who have had interest had insufficent to take the plunge to build a demonstrator to take the next step. What price would this cost to produce and then sell for? The GtM Libra became too expensive to build as Eilses drop in value and this is the problem with the car and how one might value it. On the Locost Forum, people saw a cheap body for a seven chassis and were excited by the prospect and the concept but it is a huge step from there to parting with cash and the car has moved in a direction that took it away from there. If a manufacturer could take this and supply a su £8k kit thye could sell some is that enough in this economic state now?

The concept and the work of the designer is good so I too hope it does not slip into oblivian but time will tell.

[andygtt]

I have to say IMO its the buyer who sets the price... it might be annoying that the buyer has to start the bidding, but when pricing an unknown its often the only way.

Not everyone agrees that this project has no market... I happen to believe it has the biggest market potential (if done right) of any project I have seen for quite some time.

[singlecoil]

andygtt said:

I have to say IMO its the buyer who sets the price... it might be annoying that the buyer has to start the bidding, but when pricing an unknown its often the only way.

I don't follow the logic of that. How can the buyer set the price, as it isn't the buyer who makes the decision as to whether or not the price is accepted? For instance, supposing I want to buy a cake at the market. I say to the seller £3. Seller says £5. I either accept or I don't. But it's the seller that sets the price, because it is the seller's property.

Now, if the seller finds that no-one wants to buy his cake for £5, he will have to reduce the price. But what has happened in the meantime is that interested persons have had their time wasted. If the seller wasn't going to let it go for less than £5, why not say so in the first place? How many cake sellers do you know that ask for sensible offers, or sellers of virtually anything for that matter?

[jason61c]

singlecoil said:

andygtt said:

I have to say IMO its the buyer who sets the price... it might be annoying that the buyer has to start the bidding, but when pricing an unknown its often the only way.

I don't follow the logic of that. How can the buyer set the price, as it isn't the buyer who makes the decision as to whether or not the price is accepted? For instance, supposing I want to buy a cake at the market. I say to the seller £3. Seller says £5. I either accept or I don't. But it's the seller that sets the price, because it is the seller's property.

Now, if the seller finds that no-one wants to buy his cake for £5, he will have to reduce the price. But what has happened in the meantime is that interested persons have had their time wasted. If the seller wasn't going to let it go for less than £5, why not say so in the first place? How many cake sellers do you know that ask for sensible offers, or sellers of virtually anything for that matter?

Come on, you know exactly what he means. This thread is going to end up not being of the constructive type.

You're well aware every company sells everything they have for the maximum amount they can.

[singlecoil]

jason61c said:

singlecoil said:

andygtt said:

I have to say IMO its the buyer who sets the price... it might be annoying that the buyer has to start the bidding, but when pricing an unknown its often the only way.

I don't follow the logic of that. How can the buyer set the price, as it isn't the buyer who makes the decision as to whether or not the price is accepted? For instance, supposing I want to buy a cake at the market. I say to the seller £3. Seller says £5. I either accept or I don't. But it's the seller that sets the price, because it is the seller's property.

Now, if the seller finds that no-one wants to buy his cake for £5, he will have to reduce the price. But what has happened in the meantime is that interested persons have had their time wasted. If the seller wasn't going to let it go for less than £5, why not say so in the first place? How many cake sellers do you know that ask for sensible offers, or sellers of virtually anything for that matter?

Come on, you know exactly what he means. This thread is going to end up not being of the constructive type.

You're well aware every company sells everything they have for the maximum amount they can.

Feel free to tell me what you are aware of, but don't presume to tell me what I think or know about anything.

Of course everybody sells everything for as much as they can get, but then I did not suggest that they don't. This part of the discussion is about whether it's appropriate for sellers to ask for 'sensible offers', rather than simply tell people how much they want for what they are selling. Feel free to tell us what you thnk about that, but for goodness sake don't start in on me.

[andygtt]

Its simple economics supply and demand... IMHO in the kit industry with only a few exceptions the supply outstrips demand and thus the buyer sets the price.

[Ferg]

andygtt said:

Its simple economics supply and demand... IMHO in the kit industry with only a few exceptions the supply outstrips demand and thus the buyer sets the price.

Accountant..

[jeffw]

Andy, you have championed this car in every post....question is would you buy it yourself as a 10K kit or could you imagine 20-30 people a year buying it?

[singlecoil]

andygtt said:

Its simple economics supply and demand... IMHO in the kit industry with only a few exceptions the supply outstrips demand and thus the buyer sets the price.

I disagree. The buyer does not get to choose what they pay, because the seller will simply refuse to sell at a price that does not cover his costs and required profit margin. As you point out, the supply is greater than the demand, and I think we can pretty much bet that the price of virtually every kit has already been set as low as the manufacturer can possibly make it. So to my way of thinking, the kit industry is a good example of the buyer having only one choice, and that is to either buy or not buy. He certainly doesn't have the choice of buying for less than the asking price, and is hardly likely to choose to pay more.

However, this thread is going rather off-topic, so having said that I think I will drop out of any more discussion on this particular point.

[andygtt]

Impose a price that buyers will not pay in an market were supply outstrips demand means you will go out of business, simple economics.
I actually wonder how many kit suppliers make true profits? i'm betting its less that 50%.
But yes I am more than happy to let this go.

As for would I buy the car as a kit? No Im not in the market as I already have a couple of massive projects... but would seriously consider investing if I could find a way to make it happen?... yes
But neither of these stop or effect me being excited by this, i'm usually quite pessimistic in new kits and their potential, however this one just makes so much sense to me.

am i an accountant? Yes and No lol