Three Wheelers - Your opinions and expertise wanted!

[slomax]

Dave,
I have answered on the other thread too, but what about a vw box as used in the blackjack zero?

[dave de roxby]

slomax said:

Dave,
I have answered on the other thread too, but what about a vw box as used in the blackjack zero?

Thanks Old Boy,

To understand what I'm getting at, you have to get into my mind set.

As you already know, I am a frustrated, would-be car designer who is hoping to make one last lunge into the kit car world as my swan-song! Wish I could have done it earlier but life took me in a huge round circuit. Mining in Africa, property developement, recruitment, classic cars, motor trade, bleedin' women, it goes on and on. But that's all water under the bridge now. However, I have picked up loads of 'transferable skills' along the way, consultant engineer, managing director of various companies etc etc so not exactly a complete fool! And I do believe I have talents in aesthetic design - but I have to put my money where my mouth is!

What I am trying to create are a couple of cleverly designed cars which could be a commercial success in the difficult world of the specialist car industry (Steffan - I've listened but wont be put off!). My main focus is on a mid engined roadster, already well defined. But I also find myself fascinated by three-wheelers of the 'reverse trike' genre (ie 2 wheels in front and probably fwd). Perhaps this might be the best start? Smaller, less physically to produce?

Whatever, I am determined that my designs/prototypes must be capable of being 'productionised' and therefore must utilise relatively modern and available components. When I started this design adventure in the late 60's, Ford 105E engines and reversed VW Beetle gearboxes seemed the way. But hell, we're in 2011 and I want to use something more up to date. The four wheeled roadster is not a problem. I've forgotten my Alfasud ideas (although I've got a shed full of parts!) and I see Audi or perhaps Subaru as the way forward.

But for the trike, I'm still scratching my head. I've actually got great respect for the 2CV but need something more up to date. So 2CV and Beetle gearboxes are out. There will be an answer!

[slomax]

I know exactly what you mean. It's hard since engines went transverse to save space. I always throught that the KA would make a good donor for something. But the body would have to be wide enough and tall enough to take the engine/box and probably make the car look ugly.

As I'm sure you're aware, there are not many longitudinal arranged fwd cars as it means packaging is awful and basically a waste of space. The most current one I can think of is the impreza with it's longitudinal flat 4.

Other than that I'm all out of ideas i'm afraid.

[fuoriserie]

dave de roxby said:

Thanks Old Boy,



But for the trike, I'm still scratching my head. I've actually got great respect for the 2CV but need something more up to date. So 2CV and Beetle gearboxes are out. There will be an answer!

Dave,

Nardi created sportscar specials just after the end of WWII using BMW 750cc boxer engines, check this site for info and a few images from their site, with a nice chassis blueprint, by the way I've had a similar idea to yours for quite awhile and still considering the idea of using the BMW boxer engine for a kit project... eventhough I Like Guzzi's...

http://ferrariexperts.com/etceterini%20nardi%20car...

In reference to gearboxes maybe you could use a modern unit, just like those now used by Triking and others using bike engines:


http://www.novaracing.co.uk/reversing-gearbox-for-...

I hope this helps both our projects....


Italo

Edited by fuoriserie on Saturday 2nd April 13:59

[dave de roxby]

fuoriserie said:

Dave,

Nardi created sportscar specials just after the end of WWII using BMW 750cc boxer engines.....

Jeez Italo! And I was born 3 weeks before Hitler blew his head off! Thanks for that! I shall digest.

So basic thinking has stood still for 65 years!! Seriously, with our continuing fuel crisis, I think there is another opportunity for an economical commuter/shopper/fun vehicle which might well be a trike.

I saw a report the other day that all petrol/diesel vehicles could be banned by 2050 - we'd better get a move on!

[rykard]

Didn't VW do something called the scooter years ago? I think it was based on the front end of a polo..

[fuoriserie]

dave de roxby said:

Jeez Italo! And I was born 3 weeks before Hitler blew his head off! Thanks for that! I shall digest.

So basic thinking has stood still for 65 years!! Seriously, with our continuing fuel crisis, I think there is another opportunity for an economical commuter/shopper/fun vehicle which might well be a trike.

I saw a report the other day that all petrol/diesel vehicles could be banned by 2050 - we'd better get a move on!

I totally agree with you..., and if you like an alternative engine to the BMW Boxer, I've been looking at this, thatm I'm sure you're aware of:

http://www.ural-motorcycles.com/

The engines have a period look and sound like one....

[fuoriserie]

http://www.f2motorcycles.ltd.uk/uralretro.html

This is in the UK and has nice pictures of the URAL...unfortunately the engine has only 40HP.

[dave de roxby]

fuoriserie said:

I totally agree with you..., and if you like an alternative engine to the BMW Boxer, I've been looking at this, thatm I'm sure you're aware of:

http://www.ural-motorcycles.com/

The engines have a period look and sound like one....

Thanks once again Italo. We do seem to have similar ideas.

Let's face it, within twenty-five years, electric or hydrogen powered vehicles are almost cerainly going to be the norm. Undoubtedley, the big manufacturers will have developed new small efficient power units by then, together with new compact transmission systems. Whether the kit-car industry or specialist designer will even have a role to play is debatable. More advanced technology, costs and legislation may put paid to us. I hope not, although I'll probably be pushing up daisies by then in any case!

So I sense there is one last golden window of opportunity for specialist vehicle designers/manufacturers.

If we're talking performance machines, then there are plenty of options in terms of power-plants and transmissions already available. After many years dithering, I have decided on an Audi n/s mid engined set up for my little 4 wheel roadster. It's the obvious choice if I'm going to produce these in small numbers. It's not going to break any new ground engineering-wise but I hope it has something to say stylistically.

But I'm still fascinated in designing something really petite, probably a three-wheel design, not necessarily designed for out and out performance but as a down-to-basics, useable-on-a-daily-basis fun/shopping/commuter vehicle. To be a commercial success, I think it needs to be fresh and modern rather than retro. And it will need proper weather equipment and heating but no fancy extras. I'm sure I know what the thing would basically look like. But the choice of engine/transmission is less certain.

It's even been on my mind to design my own engine/transaxle. I know this might sound a bit too ambitious and I'm not thinking about a total blank sheet of paper here. The BMW flat twin appeals in some ways but I'd need to connect it with an existing transaxle which would probably be too heavy really for the application (unless I go for rear wheel drive via the BMW bike system). Air cooling has its pros and cons too. I've even toyed with designing my own flat twin block and crank (can't be that hard or expensive for a small engine) and utilise a pair of water-cooled bike barrels with 4-valve, ohc technology linked to a specially designed lightweight transaxle casing, but using existing internals. If such a thing were available, I could see it being saleable to all manner of producers. (I don't know of anything similar which is readily available in our part of the world??)

Don't want to speak too soon but my house sale looks to be going through at long last! So hope to have the finance to start turning some of these dreams into reality within a couple of months. About f*****g time!

[slomax]

dave de roxby said:

But I'm still fascinated in designing something really petite, probably a three-wheel design, not necessarily designed for out and out performance but as a down-to-basics, useable-on-a-daily-basis fun/shopping/commuter vehicle. To be a commercial success, I think it needs to be fresh and modern rather than retro. And it will need proper weather equipment and heating but no fancy extras. I'm sure I know what the thing would basically look like. But the choice of engine/transmission is less certain.

I'm currently in the process of designing a very simple, tiny vehicle that is intended to be a 2016 Invacar with a view for potential mass sales to non disabled customers too. Packaging a 3 wheel vehicle is very tricky for the dimensions i have set myself and have decided to go with a 4 wheel vehicle. Currently working on packaging different power trains into the space.

Basic dimensions are 2.3m long, 1.5m wide and 1.4m tall with a view for 1 person+ wheelchair. If a wheelchair is not required by the user then there is enough room (just) for a second seat, although i doubt a 97.5th percentile dutch male would fit comfortably in it.

[dmulally]

Another question...

What about using a small transaxle out the front driving the front wheels? The Beetle or Imp transaxle for example the correct way round. The gear change would be good fun but not impossible and it would need to be a very short engine or you would be sitting too far back. It might cut down on faffing about with a rear wheel drive setup and perhaps help with traction with two driven wheels.

[dave de roxby]

dmulally said:

Another question...

What about using a small transaxle out the front driving the front wheels? The Beetle or Imp transaxle for example the correct way round. The gear change would be good fun but not impossible and it would need to be a very short engine or you would be sitting too far back. It might cut down on faffing about with a rear wheel drive setup and perhaps help with traction with two driven wheels.

These are all valid ideas. The Hudson Free Spirit used to use the early 4 cyl Renault 5 engine and box in exactly this configuration. For one offs, Beetle or Imp transaxles could be used. But if I'm going to produce something which is going to sell in sufficient numbers to make it commercially viable, I think I need something more modern and readily available. Trouble is, I can't seem to find anything (so far) off the shelf which suits (there may well be something, needs more research) which is why I'm considering trying to find a clever but not too expensive way to cobble up something myself. There already could be something Japanezy which would work - but unlikely to be readily available in Europe, I fear.

[dave de roxby]

slomax said:

I'm currently in the process of designing a very simple, tiny vehicle that is intended to be a 2016 Invacar with a view for potential mass sales to non disabled customers too. Packaging a 3 wheel vehicle is very tricky for the dimensions i have set myself and have decided to go with a 4 wheel vehicle. Currently working on packaging different power trains into the space.

Basic dimensions are 2.3m long, 1.5m wide and 1.4m tall with a view for 1 person+ wheelchair. If a wheelchair is not required by the user then there is enough room (just) for a second seat, although i doubt a 97.5th percentile dutch male would fit comfortably in it.

This really sounds an interesting challenge! I think one answer could be in designing a special wheelchair in the first place which could maybe lower and/or recline before entry to the chariot! Trouble is, disabled people obviously don't all come in the same shapes and sizes. And maybe a non-standard wheelchair would not be allowed in your design brief anyway?

Best of luck!

[slomax]

dave de roxby said:

This really sounds an interesting challenge! I think one answer could be in designing a special wheelchair in the first place which could maybe lower and/or recline before entry to the chariot! Trouble is, disabled people obviously don't all come in the same shapes and sizes. And maybe a non-standard wheelchair would not be allowed in your design brief anyway?

Best of luck!

Thanks
There are certain restrictions due to crash safety with bolting a user in "chariot style". The plan is to have something very similar to the original, with many different control options and a moving seat. Engine wise, looking at a big scooter engine with a CVT gearbox at the moment. I am designing it with a "standard" wheelchair in mind, but i am aware that most "disabled" people do not use wheelchairs, so im trying to cater for as many people as possible. I'm certainly enjoying the challenge though!

[dmulally]

Hi Slomax,

How does an Invacar work normally? Is it worth copying or just the spirit of?

[slomax]

it had a sliding door on each side with a single seat that could slide from side to side. The occupant transfered themselves from thier chair to the seat. They then folded the wheelchair and slid the car seat to the opposite side of the vehicle where they could then put the folded wheelchair.

these are the original information sheets about the Invacar-

http://www.virtualgaz.com/update%20apr01/invacar1....

http://www.virtualgaz.com/update%20apr01/invacar2....

I wouldn't have said a modern copy is the right term, but its certainly heavily influenced. I have not decided on many things yet, so its still very much a work in progress...

[dave de roxby]

slomax said:

it had a sliding door on each side with a single seat that could slide from side to side. The occupant transfered themselves from thier chair to the seat. They then folded the wheelchair and slid the car seat to the opposite side of the vehicle where they could then put the folded wheelchair.

these are the original information sheets about the Invacar-

http://www.virtualgaz.com/update%20apr01/invacar1....

http://www.virtualgaz.com/update%20apr01/invacar2....

I wouldn't have said a modern copy is the right term, but its certainly heavily influenced. I have not decided on many things yet, so its still very much a work in progress...

Having looked at the links and thought about it carefully, my gut feeling is still that, in an ideal world, there are actually two inter-linked design challenges to be addressed here - the chariot and the chair. And if time and money were no object, I'd be starting with the chair! Re-designing one without the other would be such a missed opportunity.

But I know the mission you are tasked with may not accommodate this.

[fuoriserie]

slomax said:

Thanks
There are certain restrictions due to crash safety with bolting a user in "chariot style". The plan is to have something very similar to the original, with many different control options and a moving seat. Engine wise, looking at a big scooter engine with a CVT gearbox at the moment. I am designing it with a "standard" wheelchair in mind, but i am aware that most "disabled" people do not use wheelchairs, so im trying to cater for as many people as possible. I'm certainly enjoying the challenge though!

Hi Niall, have you seen the Kenguru design ?

http://www.kengurucars.com/

and a few videos showing tha minicar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw3kdZUTyJw&fea...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyh--l2pf98&fea...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEbeYw3D878&fea...



I think that it's a very neat design and It might give you a few ideas for your design project.

Italo

Edited by fuoriserie on Sunday 10th April 16:20

[slomax]

thanks Italo- i hadn't seen that.


On a slightly different note, i have come across this, which looks quite interesting. If you watch the video though, as he climbs in, the steering wheel is between his knees, which are bent a lot, surely that cant be a great driving position!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/trike-reverse-trike-yamaha-r...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsKEsgSD85o

[stig mills]

I had a very serious look at golf car engines, they use 2 cyl eco engines in a very compact layout with CVT as shown. Take off the gov and they shift too. Ideal for a lightweight single person commute. They have drum brakes and a mech reverse gear on the trans. There are always lots for sale that are 3 years old ex hire for around £6-£800.
The track width could be considered too narrow but it is fairly easy to alter and complete the layout with a single front wheel/headstock from a scooter.