Three Wheelers - Your opinions and expertise wanted!
Discussion
Ambleton said:
Well, ive just secured the first piece of the puzzle for my Pembleton LWB build - a small block carb 750 motor, ignition, wiring loom and generator etc from a 1991 moto guzzi 750T. Watch this space for a build thread! Excited doesnt even slightly fo justice!
I'm looking forward to seeing your new build .Cheers
Italo
http://www.polaris.com/en-us/slingshot
Polaris is really investing a lot in marketing their Slingshot Threewheeler worldwide, not only on their dedicated website...just saw one today at the Motor Bike Expo in Verona(Italy) today....and this show is more Custom/Cafe Racer focused show than others :
http://www.motorbikeexpo.it/
Polaris is really investing a lot in marketing their Slingshot Threewheeler worldwide, not only on their dedicated website...just saw one today at the Motor Bike Expo in Verona(Italy) today....and this show is more Custom/Cafe Racer focused show than others :
http://www.motorbikeexpo.it/
New three wheeler:
https://www.morphosa.co.uk/e-bike-zero-emission-sa...
I would appreciate your thoughts on my new venture. I am not sure whether to market this a a pure, super efficient, safe, commuter or to also offer it with more power. In its lowest state of tune, it would be classed as a bicycle (Velomobile) with electric assist, so no road tax, insurance or speed limit to worry about (unassisted) in the UK.
My intended market is the commuter on a tight budget who doesn't want to risk life and limb, or to be exposed directly to poor weather. This is why the carbon Kevlar body is foam filled, to absorb impacts exactly as a helmet does. Perhaps a more sporting and MSVA'd version would be appealing as well? I am just trying to gauge interest and to understand where you might naturally pigeon hole it in terms of market, cost etc? CBT license, sub 11KW is easily achievable with appropriate lighting, etc. As is high performance, but this goes against the grain as the intention is to optimise efficiency, hence the drag coefficient of 0.1.
Any thoughts are most welcome as long as the Sinclair C5 isn't mentioned. What I have built is a high tech, modern composite monocoque safety cell. Car like in terms of it's size but more bicycle in terms of it;s weight, thanks to it's very expensive body and suspension construction in carbon.
Dimensions are 3.5 meters in length by max 1.2m width, tune-able depending on the average width of local cycle ways. Going narrower is easy but. there are some horrendous velomobile crashes on the web that are obviously down to the track being too narrow.
Any comments?
https://www.morphosa.co.uk/e-bike-zero-emission-sa...
I would appreciate your thoughts on my new venture. I am not sure whether to market this a a pure, super efficient, safe, commuter or to also offer it with more power. In its lowest state of tune, it would be classed as a bicycle (Velomobile) with electric assist, so no road tax, insurance or speed limit to worry about (unassisted) in the UK.
My intended market is the commuter on a tight budget who doesn't want to risk life and limb, or to be exposed directly to poor weather. This is why the carbon Kevlar body is foam filled, to absorb impacts exactly as a helmet does. Perhaps a more sporting and MSVA'd version would be appealing as well? I am just trying to gauge interest and to understand where you might naturally pigeon hole it in terms of market, cost etc? CBT license, sub 11KW is easily achievable with appropriate lighting, etc. As is high performance, but this goes against the grain as the intention is to optimise efficiency, hence the drag coefficient of 0.1.
Any thoughts are most welcome as long as the Sinclair C5 isn't mentioned. What I have built is a high tech, modern composite monocoque safety cell. Car like in terms of it's size but more bicycle in terms of it;s weight, thanks to it's very expensive body and suspension construction in carbon.
Dimensions are 3.5 meters in length by max 1.2m width, tune-able depending on the average width of local cycle ways. Going narrower is easy but. there are some horrendous velomobile crashes on the web that are obviously down to the track being too narrow.
Any comments?
Looks well thought out and well developed. The design work so far looks great, but I have my concerns about the concept.
As always, the same problems are faced as many of its predecessors, which have stopped them getting any further.
Its not much smaller than a smart car, so this leads to a few challenges
- Storage is going to be an issue. You'll need a garage or lock up for it, and they're expensive in major cities. You wouldn't want to leave it on the street over night?
- if you work in or visit a city/town centre you're still going to need to pay for a parking space. Would you leave it on a street away from where you're going all day?
- In a smart car there's enough room for 2 people and a small weekly supermarket shop.
- because it is larger, you don't get the benefit or a bicycle or scooter of being able to filter through traffic.
- because it is very low, visibility to other drivers might be a concern. Especially if you are alongside someone in a lorry or van.
- getting in and out might be entertaining. You mention your aim is for commuters. I cant see a businessman in a suit or a lady in a skirt wanting to clamber out of it.
I really don't want to shoot you down though and I'd love it if you had answers and solutions for all these concerns!
Renault launched the Twizy I think 6 years ago with a very similar target in mind. The form they opted for does overcome some of the issues above, but not all. And you could almost class that as a "proper car". Okay, its a lot heavier and taller, but that makes it more difficult to steal, easier to get in and out of etc. Even in london you don't see that many Twizys, which makes you wonder if there really I a market in the UK for such a vehicle.
As always, the same problems are faced as many of its predecessors, which have stopped them getting any further.
Its not much smaller than a smart car, so this leads to a few challenges
- Storage is going to be an issue. You'll need a garage or lock up for it, and they're expensive in major cities. You wouldn't want to leave it on the street over night?
- if you work in or visit a city/town centre you're still going to need to pay for a parking space. Would you leave it on a street away from where you're going all day?
- In a smart car there's enough room for 2 people and a small weekly supermarket shop.
- because it is larger, you don't get the benefit or a bicycle or scooter of being able to filter through traffic.
- because it is very low, visibility to other drivers might be a concern. Especially if you are alongside someone in a lorry or van.
- getting in and out might be entertaining. You mention your aim is for commuters. I cant see a businessman in a suit or a lady in a skirt wanting to clamber out of it.
I really don't want to shoot you down though and I'd love it if you had answers and solutions for all these concerns!
Renault launched the Twizy I think 6 years ago with a very similar target in mind. The form they opted for does overcome some of the issues above, but not all. And you could almost class that as a "proper car". Okay, its a lot heavier and taller, but that makes it more difficult to steal, easier to get in and out of etc. Even in london you don't see that many Twizys, which makes you wonder if there really I a market in the UK for such a vehicle.
I really like that!
As mentioned by the poster above, there aer challenges with trying to compete with the existing inner city commuting options.
However, come up with something that could cope with my 50 miles each way south downs commute (Chichester to Crawley) where I have parking and charging capabilities at both ends, and I'd be very intrigued...
As mentioned by the poster above, there aer challenges with trying to compete with the existing inner city commuting options.
However, come up with something that could cope with my 50 miles each way south downs commute (Chichester to Crawley) where I have parking and charging capabilities at both ends, and I'd be very intrigued...
Ambleton said:
- getting in and out might be entertaining. You mention your aim is for commuters. I cant see a businessman in a suit or a lady in a skirt wanting to clamber out of it.
Renault launched the Twizy I think 6 years ago with a very similar target in mind. The form they opted for does overcome some of the issues above, but not all. And you could almost class that as a "proper car". Okay, its a lot heavier and taller, but that makes it more difficult to steal, easier to get in and out of etc. Even in london you don't see that many Twizys, which makes you wonder if there really I a market in the UK for such a vehicle.
Ambleton's other points are also good ones, but I think this is the main concern for me. It just doesn't look like something a commuter would use. If I had a short commute to work (or the station) I would consider a Twizy if I had somewhere to keep it and charge it, but I'm a bit special! (On odd occasions, I've seen someone in a Twizy on the M3!)Renault launched the Twizy I think 6 years ago with a very similar target in mind. The form they opted for does overcome some of the issues above, but not all. And you could almost class that as a "proper car". Okay, its a lot heavier and taller, but that makes it more difficult to steal, easier to get in and out of etc. Even in london you don't see that many Twizys, which makes you wonder if there really I a market in the UK for such a vehicle.
This looks like a step too far for me - just my personal view.
It does look like a well thought out design, I'm just not sure what your market would be. Perhaps your too far ahead of the curve and we'll all be running around in these in 20 years time.
Thanks for your comments, here are a few of the ideas I have on how to mitigate against some of the concerns you raise.
Storage and parking may present some opportunities as well as challenges. Classed as a bicycle, the vehicle would not be registered and would therefore be exempt from parking fines and possible to park on pavements, tie to lampposts etc. I also plan to develop the nose cone to enable the vehicle to be stood on it's front bulkhead/wheels vertically. This would allow the vehicle to be mounted against a wall or parked on common land etc whilst taking very little floor space, similar to a conventional bicycle.
There is space for shopping but it's strictly one seat as the intended market is the commuter. Smart cars are not really comparable, see below.
At 1.2m wide, filtering between traffic would be more restrictive than on a two wheeler, less so than a smart car. I am primarily designing the vehicle to be road safe and able to mix it with car traffic. The added benefit being that is also possible to utilise the ever growing network of cycle superhighways when the traffic grinds to a halt. The vehicle is about the same height as a Lotus Elise with much deeper structural sills. So no less safe or visible and these seem to be accepted as a practical height so I am not too concerned about that.
Your point about ingress is valid in so far as it is slightly more difficult to get into than a conventional car. With the canopy open or off, it is certainly no more difficult or less dignified than stepping into and lowering oneself into a bath. The benefit from this compromise is a much stiffer, lighter and safer monocoque. Business men or women dressed in suits etc are probably not members of the intended market, I agree. Most places of work now offer changing facilities though and it is fashionable to be healthy and adopt a low carbon footprint.
The Twizzy is a very useful benchmark and I have given it's relative failure in this country especially a lot of thought. The biggest drawback is without doubt the battery lease arrangement. Also, the range is quite poor and weather protection is half hearted. With the vehicle that I am developing you can own a battery pack with comparable range for around three hundred pounds due to the weight being much less and the aerodynamics much better. Spend more on batteries and you can tune your range according to your commute. It is also a lot cheaper to own than a Twizzy and about 10K less than the entry level Smart Car, 15K less than the range topper. I am not sure a Smart car is even comparable in any respect other than it is a relatively small vehicle. Like the Twizzy, it requires insurance and road tax and is regulated as a car in terms of parking.
I plan to offer GPS theft recovery protection as an option. Since it is now possible to steal a brand new Mercedes with a bit of Russian software and a laptop, I am of the opinion that ensuring quick recovery is the best preventative policy. It is also helpful for insurance purposes.
Further opinions are much appreciated.
Storage and parking may present some opportunities as well as challenges. Classed as a bicycle, the vehicle would not be registered and would therefore be exempt from parking fines and possible to park on pavements, tie to lampposts etc. I also plan to develop the nose cone to enable the vehicle to be stood on it's front bulkhead/wheels vertically. This would allow the vehicle to be mounted against a wall or parked on common land etc whilst taking very little floor space, similar to a conventional bicycle.
There is space for shopping but it's strictly one seat as the intended market is the commuter. Smart cars are not really comparable, see below.
At 1.2m wide, filtering between traffic would be more restrictive than on a two wheeler, less so than a smart car. I am primarily designing the vehicle to be road safe and able to mix it with car traffic. The added benefit being that is also possible to utilise the ever growing network of cycle superhighways when the traffic grinds to a halt. The vehicle is about the same height as a Lotus Elise with much deeper structural sills. So no less safe or visible and these seem to be accepted as a practical height so I am not too concerned about that.
Your point about ingress is valid in so far as it is slightly more difficult to get into than a conventional car. With the canopy open or off, it is certainly no more difficult or less dignified than stepping into and lowering oneself into a bath. The benefit from this compromise is a much stiffer, lighter and safer monocoque. Business men or women dressed in suits etc are probably not members of the intended market, I agree. Most places of work now offer changing facilities though and it is fashionable to be healthy and adopt a low carbon footprint.
The Twizzy is a very useful benchmark and I have given it's relative failure in this country especially a lot of thought. The biggest drawback is without doubt the battery lease arrangement. Also, the range is quite poor and weather protection is half hearted. With the vehicle that I am developing you can own a battery pack with comparable range for around three hundred pounds due to the weight being much less and the aerodynamics much better. Spend more on batteries and you can tune your range according to your commute. It is also a lot cheaper to own than a Twizzy and about 10K less than the entry level Smart Car, 15K less than the range topper. I am not sure a Smart car is even comparable in any respect other than it is a relatively small vehicle. Like the Twizzy, it requires insurance and road tax and is regulated as a car in terms of parking.
I plan to offer GPS theft recovery protection as an option. Since it is now possible to steal a brand new Mercedes with a bit of Russian software and a laptop, I am of the opinion that ensuring quick recovery is the best preventative policy. It is also helpful for insurance purposes.
Further opinions are much appreciated.
Edited by GB8CH on Tuesday 9th May 23:42
GB8CH said:
New three wheeler:
https://www.morphosa.co.uk/e-bike-zero-emission-sa...
I would appreciate your thoughts on my new venture. I am not sure whether to market this a a pure, super efficient, safe, commuter or to also offer it with more power. In its lowest state of tune, it would be classed as a bicycle (Velomobile) with electric assist, so no road tax, insurance or speed limit to worry about (unassisted) in the UK.
My intended market is the commuter on a tight budget who doesn't want to risk life and limb, or to be exposed directly to poor weather. This is why the carbon Kevlar body is foam filled, to absorb impacts exactly as a helmet does. Perhaps a more sporting and MSVA'd version would be appealing as well? I am just trying to gauge interest and to understand where you might naturally pigeon hole it in terms of market, cost etc? CBT license, sub 11KW is easily achievable with appropriate lighting, etc. As is high performance, but this goes against the grain as the intention is to optimise efficiency, hence the drag coefficient of 0.1.
Any thoughts are most welcome as long as the Sinclair C5 isn't mentioned. What I have built is a high tech, modern composite monocoque safety cell. Car like in terms of it's size but more bicycle in terms of it;s weight, thanks to it's very expensive body and suspension construction in carbon.
Dimensions are 3.5 meters in length by max 1.2m width, tune-able depending on the average width of local cycle ways. Going narrower is easy but. there are some horrendous velomobile crashes on the web that are obviously down to the track being too narrow.
Any comments?
Great Project and Design !....I like the the styling of your threewheeler and it is unique and stands out from what potentially is out there....https://www.morphosa.co.uk/e-bike-zero-emission-sa...
I would appreciate your thoughts on my new venture. I am not sure whether to market this a a pure, super efficient, safe, commuter or to also offer it with more power. In its lowest state of tune, it would be classed as a bicycle (Velomobile) with electric assist, so no road tax, insurance or speed limit to worry about (unassisted) in the UK.
My intended market is the commuter on a tight budget who doesn't want to risk life and limb, or to be exposed directly to poor weather. This is why the carbon Kevlar body is foam filled, to absorb impacts exactly as a helmet does. Perhaps a more sporting and MSVA'd version would be appealing as well? I am just trying to gauge interest and to understand where you might naturally pigeon hole it in terms of market, cost etc? CBT license, sub 11KW is easily achievable with appropriate lighting, etc. As is high performance, but this goes against the grain as the intention is to optimise efficiency, hence the drag coefficient of 0.1.
Any thoughts are most welcome as long as the Sinclair C5 isn't mentioned. What I have built is a high tech, modern composite monocoque safety cell. Car like in terms of it's size but more bicycle in terms of it;s weight, thanks to it's very expensive body and suspension construction in carbon.
Dimensions are 3.5 meters in length by max 1.2m width, tune-able depending on the average width of local cycle ways. Going narrower is easy but. there are some horrendous velomobile crashes on the web that are obviously down to the track being too narrow.
Any comments?
I won't mention the Siclair C5....but the new one from his nephew, who has just presented this new threewheeler prototype that is very similar in concept to your new threewheeler design , this is his new Iris Etrike....the only difference is that he is going for a 250Watt pedal asistid vehicle
http://www.grantsinclair.com/en/all-products/iris-...
Videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWCZeqSItyM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al4730A7DkU
Another new project in a similar niche is the Podbike
http://www.podbike.com/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cT-8PJzTPKs
Another working prototype, in this case you have this new Schaeffler Bio-Hybrid Concept Quad ,
Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=037CAW4Yeug
You also have this new prototype vehicle, the Vilgard:
http://www.vilgard.com/
Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li33TrYeziA
Quite a few of us have been working on similar design concepts and from my personal research on this niche, with the 1000Wat electric motor you would be aiming at a vehicle that follows the L1eA type approval niche :
http://www.bike-eu.com/laws-regulations/nieuws/201...
If above 1000Watts and no pedal power but fully electric you could look into the L1eB with 4000Watt max and limited speed to 45Km/h.
Otherwise you might consider the Microcar/Quadricycle niche in the EU, where the maximum power is 20Hp/15KW....with a max speed of 80Km/h and have a bigger niche market to work with.
I like velomobiles a lot, but the niche is very small and those few german and dutch manufactures have cornered the market with speed velomobiles, very low to the ground and used most times only on Cycle Paths even if the dutch and german cycle enthusiasts do venture on public roads ....
I did get some info from people in the business and other and production numbers are limited, and rememebr that the manufacture of the WAW Velomobile was quoting about 48 vehicles manufactured in 2016, with a groth potential of about 25% with pedal ssist in the coming years...
I'm sure you've done your research on the Velomobile niche and the prices of Velomobiles kits are very expensive and the old Alleweder A4 starts at 2.895 Euros ,, pricelist here :
http://www.alligt.nl/
Your projected price is very competitive for the quality of the bodywork and design and potentially you have a winner concept !...but then you would have to fine tune it for Velomobile enthusiast and limit its width at 95cm. at the most and lenght ?....or alternatively consider the Microcar/Quadricycle niche Laws L6- L7 ?
I have a similar project like your on stand-by due to the type approval of future electric vehicles L1eB or speed pedelecs that have not been considered fully by manufactures and are quite in a grey area, as they don't follow compoletely the bicycle industry regulations and laws and are bordering into electric scooters....
The commuter niche will be definitely picking up by 2020 when most city centres in the EU will be banned for cars and alike, so only bicycles will be allowed and those who want something with some weather protection and a faster ride than a classic e-bike will consider pedal assisted velomobiles .....and that is what most manufactures are hoping for.....will see if it really works out as intended.
Looking forward to your thoughts and comments.
Cheers
Italo
Edited by fuoriserie on Wednesday 10th May 15:49
Hi Italo,
Thanks for the feedback, you can be relied upon to share knowledge and useful insight. I have followed your threads for some time. I appreciate the fact you like the styling as well as I know you are a designer.
The Iris, Pod bike and all current velos are all great to a point. The main disadvantages that I hope to overcome that they all have are relative instability in corners, too small to be visible and virtually no impact protection. A lot of the extra footprint I have is in the form of lightweight and flexible solid carbon bar wishbone. This offers a lot of crumple zone, especially from the rear. Beyond this, the tub is double skinned and foam filled to further absorb impacts and protect the driver/rider.
So, I hope that what I am proposing has a broader appeal than any traditional velo but I agree anyway, that this segment of the market is very likely to grow considerable in the coming years. And I am happy to produce these in relatively low numbers initially at least.
As far as power goes, I am very keen to remain in the pure bicycle category. The prototype that is in build at the moment is a 1KW series hybrid. It supplies an addition 250W (UK) beyond what the driver produces through a dyno. Therefore a net power of 1KW is available through the hub motor if the driver can pump out 750W in short burst. In race track mode, the full KW will be available directly from the battery and the speed limiter disabled.
As soon as registration is required it means type approval, tax, insurance and a license. A lot of extra cost.
The next phase of the development will be to test this power level in real world conditions to establish if it is adequate. If not then upping the power is probably inevitable.
Thanks for the feedback, you can be relied upon to share knowledge and useful insight. I have followed your threads for some time. I appreciate the fact you like the styling as well as I know you are a designer.
The Iris, Pod bike and all current velos are all great to a point. The main disadvantages that I hope to overcome that they all have are relative instability in corners, too small to be visible and virtually no impact protection. A lot of the extra footprint I have is in the form of lightweight and flexible solid carbon bar wishbone. This offers a lot of crumple zone, especially from the rear. Beyond this, the tub is double skinned and foam filled to further absorb impacts and protect the driver/rider.
So, I hope that what I am proposing has a broader appeal than any traditional velo but I agree anyway, that this segment of the market is very likely to grow considerable in the coming years. And I am happy to produce these in relatively low numbers initially at least.
As far as power goes, I am very keen to remain in the pure bicycle category. The prototype that is in build at the moment is a 1KW series hybrid. It supplies an addition 250W (UK) beyond what the driver produces through a dyno. Therefore a net power of 1KW is available through the hub motor if the driver can pump out 750W in short burst. In race track mode, the full KW will be available directly from the battery and the speed limiter disabled.
As soon as registration is required it means type approval, tax, insurance and a license. A lot of extra cost.
The next phase of the development will be to test this power level in real world conditions to establish if it is adequate. If not then upping the power is probably inevitable.
GB8CH said:
Hi Italo,
Thanks for the feedback, you can be relied upon to share knowledge and useful insight. I have followed your threads for some time. I appreciate the fact you like the styling as well as I know you are a designer.
The Iris, Pod bike and all current velos are all great to a point. The main disadvantages that I hope to overcome that they all have are relative instability in corners, too small to be visible and virtually no impact protection. A lot of the extra footprint I have is in the form of lightweight and flexible solid carbon bar wishbone. This offers a lot of crumple zone, especially from the rear. Beyond this, the tub is double skinned and foam filled to further absorb impacts and protect the driver/rider.
As soon as registration is required it means type approval, tax, insurance and a license. A lot of extra cost.
Thank you for the consideration.Thanks for the feedback, you can be relied upon to share knowledge and useful insight. I have followed your threads for some time. I appreciate the fact you like the styling as well as I know you are a designer.
The Iris, Pod bike and all current velos are all great to a point. The main disadvantages that I hope to overcome that they all have are relative instability in corners, too small to be visible and virtually no impact protection. A lot of the extra footprint I have is in the form of lightweight and flexible solid carbon bar wishbone. This offers a lot of crumple zone, especially from the rear. Beyond this, the tub is double skinned and foam filled to further absorb impacts and protect the driver/rider.
As soon as registration is required it means type approval, tax, insurance and a license. A lot of extra cost.
I agree with you on the disadvantages of the vehicles I mentioned earlier, but it's mainly due, to following the Velomobile niche industry rules, I've even seen velomobile that are 750mm wide !.... I spoke to a few key manufactures at a show in Germany a few years ago, and they feel that velomobiles should be mainly used on Cycle paths and not on open roads....perfect if you live in in Germany, the Netherlands and a few other countries in Northern Europe., but problematic if you live in other countries of the EU and even worse if you live in Italy !!
I'm looking forward to seeing your running prototype as I think it's a cool looking vehicle and will offer an alternative to the classic E-bike.
Wishing you the best with your new project, !
Cheers
Italo
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