What is it, a 66' 1800S or 67 1800S MkIV
Discussion
Hello Everyone,
I hope that you can help clarify some things for me.
I purchased this TVR (VIN 18042) back in February and have experienced a delay in transferring the title to the State of Georgia. With the low production numbers and volume of TVRs here in the USA I guess this is somewhat understandable, but I now need to give them some clarification and proof that this is a production car.
Here are some older photos of the car that were posted on this site by GTRene on Sept 11, 2014:
CY5-N279 = 1800s
And here are some photos that are a bit more recent (which also have already been posted on this site):
The California title that I received from the previous owner, and provided to my home State of Georgia, has the vehicle type listed as a '1967 TVR'. I found it listed on the Grantura registry as a MkIV: http://people.zeelandnet.nl/serel/mk4.htm
Doing some reading tonight I am now questioning if this is a 1966 1800S or a '67 1800S MkIV?
Or is it a 1966 production 1800S titled here in the USA as a 1967?
Referencing Graham Robson's book (TVRs Volume 1: Grantura to Taimar), it states on page 32 that, "In July 1966, however, after the first 26 Lilley-type 1800S cars had been built, the first of a new derivative - the 'Mark IV' 1800S - was built. Chassis numbers between 18/027 and 18/044 were intermingled, but thereafter the 'Mark IV's took over completely".
The book also has a chart on page 121, if I understand correctly, also showing VIN 18042 could be a 1966 1800S?
If it helps, my car does not have the wood dash but it does have cancelling turn signals which I believe started with the Mk IV? It also does not have the MGB style heater but the heater blower that mounts to the inner fender. What are the details that I should be looking for to determine this?
What do you think, which year/TVR model is this car exactly?
Thank you!
Joe
I hope that you can help clarify some things for me.
I purchased this TVR (VIN 18042) back in February and have experienced a delay in transferring the title to the State of Georgia. With the low production numbers and volume of TVRs here in the USA I guess this is somewhat understandable, but I now need to give them some clarification and proof that this is a production car.
Here are some older photos of the car that were posted on this site by GTRene on Sept 11, 2014:
CY5-N279 = 1800s
And here are some photos that are a bit more recent (which also have already been posted on this site):
The California title that I received from the previous owner, and provided to my home State of Georgia, has the vehicle type listed as a '1967 TVR'. I found it listed on the Grantura registry as a MkIV: http://people.zeelandnet.nl/serel/mk4.htm
Doing some reading tonight I am now questioning if this is a 1966 1800S or a '67 1800S MkIV?
Or is it a 1966 production 1800S titled here in the USA as a 1967?
Referencing Graham Robson's book (TVRs Volume 1: Grantura to Taimar), it states on page 32 that, "In July 1966, however, after the first 26 Lilley-type 1800S cars had been built, the first of a new derivative - the 'Mark IV' 1800S - was built. Chassis numbers between 18/027 and 18/044 were intermingled, but thereafter the 'Mark IV's took over completely".
The book also has a chart on page 121, if I understand correctly, also showing VIN 18042 could be a 1966 1800S?
If it helps, my car does not have the wood dash but it does have cancelling turn signals which I believe started with the Mk IV? It also does not have the MGB style heater but the heater blower that mounts to the inner fender. What are the details that I should be looking for to determine this?
What do you think, which year/TVR model is this car exactly?
Thank you!
Joe
Edited by AtlantaTVR on Wednesday 16th December 05:26
Hello Joe
You look to have a lovely original car there. Welcome to the forum.
Although my own primary interest is in pre-66 Granturas, I have been studying these mid-60s cars for a number of years now. However, the 'grey area' of the transition between the 1800S and MkIV is not something I have ever seen properly pinned down.
Others more knowledgeable than me will no doubt have fuller answers to your question but, for me, the lack of the MGB heater is the most telling aspect that suggests you have one of the very last of the 1800S. My understanding is that when they introduced the new heater they had to move the engine position forward a little bit although I am not sure by how far. I am aware from racing friends that this aspect has, on occasions, been raised in FIA-sanctioned inspections of MkIV cars for which owners were trying to obtain a Mk3 1800 Historic Technical Passport (an important document in Europe for entry into certain high profile race meetings).
I would suggest that the dash material and/or switchgear details are less reliable indicators (sorry for the unintentional pun!) as it seems clear that TVR's assembly process in those days had a degree of randomness to it. They had to make do with whatever parts were in the bins when finishing off cars to meet fairly irregular customer demand.
If what is in Robson's book is correct, then the answer to the essential question of 'how did they decide what was an 1800S and a MkIV when handing out the chassis numbers 18/027 to 18/044 seems to have been lost in the mists of time and the destruction of record in the factory fire. However, at home I have a partially complete list of chassis numbers and models that was pulled together from old copies of the TVR Car Club magazine when owners voluntarily cintcated the club to let them know the details of their cars. This was from the days before the Data Protection Act over here put an end to the publication of such information. I will check later if I have a record of your car and revert.
Hope this helps. Look forward to hearing views from other regular posters.
TF
You look to have a lovely original car there. Welcome to the forum.
Although my own primary interest is in pre-66 Granturas, I have been studying these mid-60s cars for a number of years now. However, the 'grey area' of the transition between the 1800S and MkIV is not something I have ever seen properly pinned down.
Others more knowledgeable than me will no doubt have fuller answers to your question but, for me, the lack of the MGB heater is the most telling aspect that suggests you have one of the very last of the 1800S. My understanding is that when they introduced the new heater they had to move the engine position forward a little bit although I am not sure by how far. I am aware from racing friends that this aspect has, on occasions, been raised in FIA-sanctioned inspections of MkIV cars for which owners were trying to obtain a Mk3 1800 Historic Technical Passport (an important document in Europe for entry into certain high profile race meetings).
I would suggest that the dash material and/or switchgear details are less reliable indicators (sorry for the unintentional pun!) as it seems clear that TVR's assembly process in those days had a degree of randomness to it. They had to make do with whatever parts were in the bins when finishing off cars to meet fairly irregular customer demand.
If what is in Robson's book is correct, then the answer to the essential question of 'how did they decide what was an 1800S and a MkIV when handing out the chassis numbers 18/027 to 18/044 seems to have been lost in the mists of time and the destruction of record in the factory fire. However, at home I have a partially complete list of chassis numbers and models that was pulled together from old copies of the TVR Car Club magazine when owners voluntarily cintcated the club to let them know the details of their cars. This was from the days before the Data Protection Act over here put an end to the publication of such information. I will check later if I have a record of your car and revert.
Hope this helps. Look forward to hearing views from other regular posters.
TF
Edited by Thurner Fan on Wednesday 16th December 18:07
Thurner Fan said:
If what is in Robson's book is correct, then the answer to the essential question of 'how did they decide what was an 1800S and a MkIV when handing out the chassis numbers 18/027 to 18/044 seems to have been lost in the mists of time and the destruction of record in the factory fire.
However, at home I have a partially complete list of chassis numbers and models that was pulled together from old copies of the TVR Car Club magazine when owners voluntarily cintcated the club to let them know the details of their cars. This was from the days before the Data Protection Act over here put an end to the publication of such information. I will check later if I have a record of your car and revert.
Hi again Joe,However, at home I have a partially complete list of chassis numbers and models that was pulled together from old copies of the TVR Car Club magazine when owners voluntarily cintcated the club to let them know the details of their cars. This was from the days before the Data Protection Act over here put an end to the publication of such information. I will check later if I have a record of your car and revert.
I have checked my records and have some news which I hope is useful. I have a note of 18/042 as being a Mk3 1800S with past owners in Colorado and, sometime before them, in Canada. The Canadian owner appears to have had a few TVRs and I also have a note of them once owning 18/041, another Mk3 1800S, as well as three other Granturas.
Incidentally, my (partially complete) database has 18/043, 18/045, 18/046 and thereafter all being MkIV 1800S (no info on 18/044). So, it does seem that you may well have the very last Mk3 1800S that left the factory.
As I mentioned, this data came from car club magazines where owners used to send in details of their cars. So, presumably when the then owner of your car quoted it as a Mk3 1800S he/she were working from what was written in its log book/registration documents.
I can't access the original magazines just now but will attempt to dig out the source in due course.
TF
Edited by Thurner Fan on Friday 18th December 18:43
This is all really great information and the feedback coming back so quickly! Thank you all, I really appreciate this!
Right now, I can trace the car owner history back to Colorado (Ian Rainford), then Texas for 3 years (Piers Gormly), California for 1 year (William Stuart), and now with me.
Grantura MkI, does /041 have a 10 or 15 gallon fuel tank? /042 has a 15 gallon tank installed.
-Joe
Right now, I can trace the car owner history back to Colorado (Ian Rainford), then Texas for 3 years (Piers Gormly), California for 1 year (William Stuart), and now with me.
Grantura MkI, does /041 have a 10 or 15 gallon fuel tank? /042 has a 15 gallon tank installed.
-Joe
I am happy to be corrected but I always thought a kamm tail MkIII had a chassis no 65/5/xxx and a MkIV was 18/xxx.
I agree with some of what TF says but it is not just about money. When you have a car that has a valid HTP and has run perfectly well in FIA events, for some years, to suddenly be told it no longer conforms because nobody can find a picture of the rear from 1965, is a bit hard to take. Particularly when I can point to something on almost every car I race against that is not legal in some way.
And then they let in modern 'replicas', continuation cars and cars with 'optimised' suspension pick ups and re-cast blocks and heads.
I agree with some of what TF says but it is not just about money. When you have a car that has a valid HTP and has run perfectly well in FIA events, for some years, to suddenly be told it no longer conforms because nobody can find a picture of the rear from 1965, is a bit hard to take. Particularly when I can point to something on almost every car I race against that is not legal in some way.
And then they let in modern 'replicas', continuation cars and cars with 'optimised' suspension pick ups and re-cast blocks and heads.
Fiscracer said:
I am happy to be corrected but I always thought a kamm tail MkIII had a chassis no 65/5/xxx and a MkIV was 18/xxx.
We've chatted about this before on PH
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=102...
TF
Great news this AM, I got a call from the State and the title is now being processed. I don't know what model type they are going to put on the paper but I should have it next week.
Looking at photos online, it appears that the 1800S MKIV cars have the shifter noticeably forward in the tunnel as compared to mine., almost inline with the parking brake lever. But then the same cars engine compartment looks about the same (other than the MGB blower), it's really hard to tell from pics. There is probably a 1.5" difference in the shifter locations fore/aft.
I am by no means an expert, but right now I think 18/042 is a 1800S but not quite a MKIV, I think that this would make sense with all the goings on at the factory during this time period.
Wasn't there a MKIII, a 1800S, and then a 1800S MKIV? If so, with the chassis number of this car being later I don't think it is a MKIII, but just a pre-MKIV 1800S.
By the way, I am seeing that this car has been discussed online many times before, (pretty much every time it is listed for sale). FIA eligibility/vehicle value/whatever is not my goal here. I have wanted a TVR for 20+ years, ever since Don Ensley introduced me to the brand and gave me an opportunity to drive his "Ol'Blue". Now I have one that I couldn't be happier to own and I forget all my troubles as soon as I take it for a drive. Midlife crisis? Maybe, but I sure am enjoying it and have no intentions of parting with it!
Looking at photos online, it appears that the 1800S MKIV cars have the shifter noticeably forward in the tunnel as compared to mine., almost inline with the parking brake lever. But then the same cars engine compartment looks about the same (other than the MGB blower), it's really hard to tell from pics. There is probably a 1.5" difference in the shifter locations fore/aft.
I am by no means an expert, but right now I think 18/042 is a 1800S but not quite a MKIV, I think that this would make sense with all the goings on at the factory during this time period.
Wasn't there a MKIII, a 1800S, and then a 1800S MKIV? If so, with the chassis number of this car being later I don't think it is a MKIII, but just a pre-MKIV 1800S.
By the way, I am seeing that this car has been discussed online many times before, (pretty much every time it is listed for sale). FIA eligibility/vehicle value/whatever is not my goal here. I have wanted a TVR for 20+ years, ever since Don Ensley introduced me to the brand and gave me an opportunity to drive his "Ol'Blue". Now I have one that I couldn't be happier to own and I forget all my troubles as soon as I take it for a drive. Midlife crisis? Maybe, but I sure am enjoying it and have no intentions of parting with it!
AtlantaTVR said:
Great news this AM, I got a call from the State and the title is now being processed. I don't know what model type they are going to put on the paper but I should have it next week.
Looking at photos online, it appears that the 1800S MKIV cars have the shifter noticeably forward in the tunnel as compared to mine., almost inline with the parking brake lever. But then the same cars engine compartment looks about the same (other than the MGB blower), it's really hard to tell from pics. There is probably a 1.5" difference in the shifter locations fore/aft.
I am by no means an expert, but right now I think 18/042 is a 1800S but not quite a MKIV, I think that this would make sense with all the goings on at the factory during this time period.
Wasn't there a MKIII, a 1800S, and then a 1800S MKIV? If so, with the chassis number of this car being later I don't think it is a MKIII, but just a pre-MKIV 1800S.
By the way, I am seeing that this car has been discussed online many times before, (pretty much every time it is listed for sale). FIA eligibility/vehicle value/whatever is not my goal here. I have wanted a TVR for 20+ years, ever since Don Ensley introduced me to the brand and gave me an opportunity to drive his "Ol'Blue". Now I have one that I couldn't be happier to own and I forget all my troubles as soon as I take it for a drive. Midlife crisis? Maybe, but I sure am enjoying it and have no intentions of parting with it!
Good news glad its getting sorted.Looking at photos online, it appears that the 1800S MKIV cars have the shifter noticeably forward in the tunnel as compared to mine., almost inline with the parking brake lever. But then the same cars engine compartment looks about the same (other than the MGB blower), it's really hard to tell from pics. There is probably a 1.5" difference in the shifter locations fore/aft.
I am by no means an expert, but right now I think 18/042 is a 1800S but not quite a MKIV, I think that this would make sense with all the goings on at the factory during this time period.
Wasn't there a MKIII, a 1800S, and then a 1800S MKIV? If so, with the chassis number of this car being later I don't think it is a MKIII, but just a pre-MKIV 1800S.
By the way, I am seeing that this car has been discussed online many times before, (pretty much every time it is listed for sale). FIA eligibility/vehicle value/whatever is not my goal here. I have wanted a TVR for 20+ years, ever since Don Ensley introduced me to the brand and gave me an opportunity to drive his "Ol'Blue". Now I have one that I couldn't be happier to own and I forget all my troubles as soon as I take it for a drive. Midlife crisis? Maybe, but I sure am enjoying it and have no intentions of parting with it!
I can understand your hunger for an early car especially after seeing Dons Car his car is amazing and Don is such a fantastic guy I had a spin out in his Grantura in October at the Gathering of the Faithful shame you did not make the event it was a fantastic weekend
Andrew
Joe,
First, congratulations on getting your car approved by the authorities. Hope you enjoy many years of seat-of-the-pants motoring in your Grantura.
Secondly, to answer your question re model designations up to and around the time of the Lilley takeover, my understanding is as follows. I have included what I believe to be the tail shape and chassis design identifiers although, as has already been discussed, there area number of other minor differences between models.
Mark III (chassis nos 8/xxx)
- round tail
- 'tapered' top chassis rails
- 1622cc MGA engine fitted as standard (although 1798cc MGB engine an option)
Mark III 1800 (chassis nos 9/xxx)
- round tail
- 'tapered' top chassis rails
- 1798cc engine fitted as standard (no factory alternatives)
1800S (chassis nos 65/5/xxx or 18/xxx, low numbers up to 18/042)
[confusingly, same model also referred to as MkIII 1800S, but possibly only post-Lilley takeover?]
- Kamm tail
- 'double kink; top chassis rails
- 1798cc engine
MkIV 1800S (chassis nos 18/xxx, some low numbers and all from 18/043 onwards)
- Kamm tail
- 'double kink' top chassis rails
- 1798cc engine
Finally, I have tracked down the June 1991 TVR Sprint magazine containing the relevant data. According to the accompanying note this information was extracted directly from factory records. Hope it helps clarify things a bit. It may be worth contacting the TVR Car Club archivist to see if they have any more info from the factory records, assuming they still have them.
NB : I have masked out the names of the 1991 owners.
TF
First, congratulations on getting your car approved by the authorities. Hope you enjoy many years of seat-of-the-pants motoring in your Grantura.
Secondly, to answer your question re model designations up to and around the time of the Lilley takeover, my understanding is as follows. I have included what I believe to be the tail shape and chassis design identifiers although, as has already been discussed, there area number of other minor differences between models.
Mark III (chassis nos 8/xxx)
- round tail
- 'tapered' top chassis rails
- 1622cc MGA engine fitted as standard (although 1798cc MGB engine an option)
Mark III 1800 (chassis nos 9/xxx)
- round tail
- 'tapered' top chassis rails
- 1798cc engine fitted as standard (no factory alternatives)
1800S (chassis nos 65/5/xxx or 18/xxx, low numbers up to 18/042)
[confusingly, same model also referred to as MkIII 1800S, but possibly only post-Lilley takeover?]
- Kamm tail
- 'double kink; top chassis rails
- 1798cc engine
MkIV 1800S (chassis nos 18/xxx, some low numbers and all from 18/043 onwards)
- Kamm tail
- 'double kink' top chassis rails
- 1798cc engine
Finally, I have tracked down the June 1991 TVR Sprint magazine containing the relevant data. According to the accompanying note this information was extracted directly from factory records. Hope it helps clarify things a bit. It may be worth contacting the TVR Car Club archivist to see if they have any more info from the factory records, assuming they still have them.
NB : I have masked out the names of the 1991 owners.
TF
Edited by Thurner Fan on Friday 18th December 19:25
Thurner Fan said:
I have tracked down the June 1991 TVR Sprint magazine containing the relevant data. According to the accompanying note this information was extracted directly from factory records. Hope it helps clarify things a bit. NB : I have masked out the names of the owners.
TF
This is amazing, great work Thurner Fan! TF
So 18/042 is either the second from last or the last MKIII produced? What ever happened to 18/044?
And what is this?
http://www.angliacarauctions.co.uk/media/6113618/i...
Some one has brought together
- a grantura
- 3000m
- vixen
And even another red.
A long list of non original items. Who finds the highest number may bid for this car.
Hans
http://www.angliacarauctions.co.uk/media/6113618/i...
Some one has brought together
- a grantura
- 3000m
- vixen
And even another red.
A long list of non original items. Who finds the highest number may bid for this car.
Hans
AtlantaTVR said:
Thurner Fan said:
I have tracked down the June 1991 TVR Sprint magazine containing the relevant data. According to the accompanying note this information was extracted directly from factory records. Hope it helps clarify things a bit. NB : I have masked out the names of the owners.
TF
This is amazing, great work Thurner Fan! TF
So 18/042 is either the second from last or the last MKIII produced? What ever happened to 18/044?
when I look at those cars ala mk3 and mk4 I always see then lke, the round ass is mk3 and the flat ass is mk4
I guess thats why its so mixed up, also in the list? anyways, confusing it is
TSP3 said:
Mk 111 18/019 colour Yellow when I owned the car in 1969.
Tony, can you remember what the dashboard was like when you had HTV 393 D? The reason I ask is that the dashboard has been changed at some time, similar to that of a MK IV. This compounded to the facts that it has TVR wishbones at the front, MGB heater and Rover dashboard vents made me believe it was a MK IV. Photos of it when Steve Reid had it for sale are on the TVR Grantura Registry, he thought it was a MK IV. Gassing Station | TVR Classics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff