Subwoofer. Where?

Subwoofer. Where?

Author
Discussion

poorpeet

Original Poster:

837 posts

227 months

Thursday 15th February 2007
quotequote all
All this recent talk of speakers has got me thinking. I have been toying with the idea of adding a amp to drive a subwoofer. Finding a home for the amp is not a problem but can any one advise me where & how to mount the sub? I don't want to hack the car about if I can help it.

Dave 500

5,399 posts

224 months

Thursday 15th February 2007
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You could do what I did and put two 6x9 subs in the back where the rear speakers used to be works really well and no need to make big holes. I think they were made by a company called Genesis.


Edited by Dave 500 on Thursday 15th February 15:44

poorpeet

Original Poster:

837 posts

227 months

Thursday 15th February 2007
quotequote all
Are'nt they too deep? I have a pair of old Sony 6x9's & the magnet only just fits in the hole left by the old speakers.

Dave 500

5,399 posts

224 months

Thursday 15th February 2007
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Nope went in fine. They were designed to go under the rear seats in a BMW mini or so I was told.

Dave 500

5,399 posts

224 months

Thursday 15th February 2007
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Found a Link www.caraudiodirect.co.uk/genesis-profile-p698-p-3015.html



Edited by Dave 500 on Thursday 15th February 16:04

poorpeet

Original Poster:

837 posts

227 months

Thursday 15th February 2007
quotequote all
Cheers Dave. I have to say that they look to be the same size as the Sony 6x9's. I guess the holes in yours must have been larger to begin with.

CaptiV8ed

808 posts

193 months

Thursday 15th February 2007
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Pete,

I have fitted 6x9s in mine, by extending the 10cm original speaker holes. At present, they are too deep and cause the trim piece above the fuel tank to pop off. However, when I get round to it, I shall fit these

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/6x9-MDF-Rings-1

(painted black of course) as they will raise the speaker from the panel and all should be rosey. 6x9s, even with roof off are exceptionally loud and the bass shakes your insides like a good 'un and thats with no amp. For info, I've got a fairly low spec JVC head unit which I think is 45x4W.

Nick

Dave 500

5,399 posts

224 months

Friday 16th February 2007
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poorpeet said:
I guess the holes in yours must have been larger to begin with.

Mine had 6x9's in when I bought it I take it that might not be normal then rolleyes oh well thats TVR for you not two the same

Edited by Dave 500 on Friday 16th February 09:27

victormeldrew

8,293 posts

259 months

Friday 16th February 2007
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Point of order chaps (though as with everything TVR I stand to be corrected!). Chims did not have rear speakers, the holes in the rear bulkhead were for air vents. Most people took these out and fitted speakers. Some enlarged them and fitted 6x9's. Personally my amp goes up to 11, 'cos its more than 10, so I fitted Kenwood 7x10's.

For sake of completeness: My head unit is a Pioneer KEH 8400PW, I have two Pioneer amps in the boot, my fronts are Alpine DD components. The fronts move enough air to push my knee around! If I could be bothered I'd make up some angle mounts to direct the fronts more.

Back in the day there were arguments about whether replacing the vents with speakers was advisable. Some folk just can't help being anal.

Having said all that, I dimly recall seeing somewhere that rear speakers were a cost option, though they weren't on the option list I had when I bought mine





Edited by victormeldrew on Friday 16th February 10:36

-JUT-

1,114 posts

195 months

Friday 16th February 2007
quotequote all
Just to get exceedingly picky here... this post is for people who care about what their stereo sounds like, rather than how much volume comes out the speakers (irrespective of sound quality)... if you're one of those people, don't read on...

I too toyed with the idea of fitting a sub, in fact I even went so far as buying one of the smallest ones you can get, before deciding there really was nowhere you could fit it when it wouldn't be in the way or be a thief magnet and flogging it on!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dl

(incidentally this sub would fit in either of the boot, and still leave enough room for the targa panel, just, but fibreglass is a good sound insulator so boot fitting is pretty pointless...)

But, if you want a stereo that sounds good, 6x9's are definitely not the way to go... ask anybody who knows about car stereo installations, the rear speakers in a car are only supposed to provide "fill" in the soundstage and in many high-end stereo installations they don't bother with rear speakers at all. Fitting rear speakers that are louder than your front speakers will give a muddled and rubbish sound (especially as the rear speakers are only about a foot from your head), pretty much a mono sound as you'll only really hear the one speaker nearest your head, unless you fade the stereo mostly to the front speakers, in which case, what's the point in fitting 6x9's???

The setup I went for in the end with mine was to have a decent set of 16cm speakers in front, 15cm speakers in the back (both sets are Infinity 2-ways) and a very powerful Pioneer head unit. I did toy with fitting an amp as well but the head unit is powerful enough. What I have now is a system with tons of clout (easily as much bass as any unamplified 6x9's I've heard) but also proper soundstaging, and a balanced sound coming from all 4 speakers.

I know lots of people would rather stick with the standard head unit and CD changer, but frankly, it's totally rubbish and in many cases up to a decade old - stereos improve a lot in 10 years!!! Get a better head unit, possibly an amp too, and upgrade your standard-size speakers, and chances are you won't have to chav your ride to get the sound you want (or chav it up and get a worse but louder sound) :-)

Griffit

359 posts

189 months

Friday 16th February 2007
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Justin,

What Infinity speakers have you got installed at present? The old Pioneer speakers in my Griff (paperbag) are rubbish and really lack bass response without distortion at even moderate volume levels. In fact I was surprised that they were two-way with butyl rubber woofer surrounds - they sound like paper dual cones!! Head unit is recent Pioneer btw so a fine amp..... cabling could be the next port of call if I can be bothered?

Cheers

victormeldrew

8,293 posts

259 months

Friday 16th February 2007
quotequote all
-JUT- said:
Just to get exceedingly picky here... this post is for people who care about what their stereo sounds like, rather than how much volume comes out the speakers (irrespective of sound quality)... if you're one of those people, don't read on...
Er, whatever

Actually I do care, and while there is something to what you say, it's a car install and it will never be "proper". If you "care" what your stereo sounds like you will be in a listening room in your penthouse loft, not trying to get ultimate fidelity out of a brutally compromised environment like a sports car - a fruitless task given your source is probably a compressed FM signal or a CD, since TVR suspension will make a complete mess of your vinyl even if you could find somewhere to install your Rega Planar.

Why 6x9? Well as I said mine are in fact 7x10, and recognised as being a very full and smooth bass - as close to a sub as you can probably get without actually being a sub. My Pioneer head unit has a useful front enhancement feature which effectively cuts most of the higher frequencies off from the back channels. Bass is pretty much non directional, even when its right behind your head (or next to your left ear), so I can get a very decent sound stage with plenty of bass wallop which sounds pretty good up into three figure speeds with the roof down. Not as good as the V8 soundtrack admittedly, but variety is the spice of life after all.

Chill. hippy It's all a compromise, and if 6x9's work for people then thats's fine.

I would say that people fitting 6x9's by "just" poking the magnet through the existing holes may not be getting value from their investment. Exactly what air are they going to move? Particularly with the 6x9 subs, the boot enclosure is meant to act as the sound box for the sub; air needs to move. You are strangling the sub big time, the mx air it can move is the miniscule amount you've trapped between the cone and the bulkhead. Not the most effective install. Cut some proper holes!

Oh, and "stereos improve a lot on ten years"? Not from my experience, unless you call neon frippery an improvement. But then I swear by my "vintage" 80's Technics Class AA amp at home and wouldn't replace it with a modern lightweight one. Quality my dear boy is quality, and it's timeless.


Edited by victormeldrew on Friday 16th February 10:40

-JUT-

1,114 posts

195 months

Friday 16th February 2007
quotequote all
He he, didn't take long!

Sounds like you have a perfect head unit for the situation then. Agreed bass is non directional and IF you can filter out the high range from the rear channels (which you can't on the standard stereo), and IF you're using a head unit with enough power to get a decent bass sound from the larger speakers (which won't be the case on a 10 year old Sony deck with around 18 watts RMS per channel) then it sounds like a good setup!

Different strokes for different folks of course, but my original comment still stands - if you stick 6x9's (or 7x10's) in the rear panel, running full range off the standard head unit, requiring around 150w RMS and getting 18w RMS from the deck, and turned up louder than the front speakers, all you'll hear is the one speaker a foot behind your head, which will probably be underpowered, tiny, flapping & farting and generally trying to deafen you. Which to my mind, is not a stereo "upgrade"... louder, sure, but it's "louder" in the same way that removing all of the exhaust boxes on a Saxo makes it sound "sporty"...

No cheap options here, you won't get a good sound without a good head unit. You won't get a great sound without upgrading the head unit, all speakers and all speaker wires (funny how 10 year old bell wire doesn't carry the best sound quality...)

victormeldrew

8,293 posts

259 months

Friday 16th February 2007
quotequote all
You are right, I have two 200w amps, the 4x50w from the 8400 head unit wasn't really enough, let alone the feeble output of a standard head unit!

Hi-fi - always good for a ruck! laugh

Is there an automotive equivalent of £1000 mains leads I wonder, that would liven up the thread!

-JUT-

1,114 posts

195 months

Friday 16th February 2007
quotequote all
Griffit said:
Justin,

What Infinity speakers have you got installed at present? The old Pioneer speakers in my Griff (paperbag) are rubbish and really lack bass response without distortion at even moderate volume levels. In fact I was surprised that they were two-way with butyl rubber woofer surrounds - they sound like paper dual cones!! Head unit is recent Pioneer btw so a fine amp..... cabling could be the next port of call if I can be bothered?

Cheers


I've got 5012i's in the back and 6012i's in the front, hunt around and you should be able to get all 4 for about £130.

And yes, standard speaker wire in most cars is god-awful bell wire (we're talking around 9-strand cabling, the sort of stuff you'd get on a £20 home micro hifi system) and can be improved on massively for very little cash.

-JUT-

1,114 posts

195 months

Friday 16th February 2007
quotequote all
victormeldrew said:

Oh, and "stereos improve a lot on ten years"? Not from my experience, unless you call neon frippery an improvement. But then I swear by my "vintage" 80's Technics Class AA amp at home and wouldn't replace it with a modern lightweight one. Quality my dear boy is quality, and it's timeless.


He he he, my home stereo is also about that age, a decent mix of separates that is much better than some of the tat they sell as combined systems now... my main point was the amps in car stereos though, the standard Sony decks were alright for their time, but were never intended to run big speakers that require a lot of power to work to their full ability. Some of the decks they were kicking out 10 years ago were producing less than 15w RMS and it's incredibly hard (if not impossible) to find modern 6x9's that will work well on that sort of power. It's pretty hard to find ones that will work well on modern head unit power. And even if you can, they will sound better 99% of the time when run from an external amplifier.

Griffit

359 posts

189 months

Friday 16th February 2007
quotequote all
-JUT- said:

I've got 5012i's in the back and 6012i's in the front, hunt around and you should be able to get all 4 for about £130.

And yes, standard speaker wire in most cars is god-awful bell wire (we're talking around 9-strand cabling, the sort of stuff you'd get on a £20 home micro hifi system) and can be improved on massively for very little cash.


I'd looked at those, one of the more economical 16cm speakers available even if the covers are a little showy, but not out of place with my stainless dash I guess. You think they are reasonably rounded by the sounds of it? Did you listen to any of the competition? I'll only be going with fronts for now as I'm not in the mood for stripping the interior apart to feed the rears.... at least not until I decide to upgrade the aerial!

I too run seperates at home with good cabling etc. and am not prepared to spend a fortune in the car because the quality is never going to be amazing due to the nature of the beast. I tend to listen to the V8 at lower speeds when you don't get the wind noise, which knackers the listening at higher volume anyway.

-JUT-

1,114 posts

195 months

Friday 16th February 2007
quotequote all
Nope, at the time I mail ordered them on the strength of previous Infinity stuff I've owned and they turned out to be a good buy. The front speakers fit inside the JL audio grilles so look quite civilised, and you're not looking at the rear ones very often! I've got a Pioneer CD/MP3 OEL headunit with an ipod bus running them, and at the time I fitted all new speaker cable and also the mod-wise aerial kit for better radio reception. All told it sounds tons better than the standard stereo, my ipod holds more music than a CD changer ever could, and the whole lot cost less than £400. Still expensive compared to just swapping the back speakers for 6x9's but it was money well spent in my book.

thenick

4,020 posts

194 months

Friday 16th February 2007
quotequote all
If you want decent sound in your TVR, the most effective thing to do is to buy the best headunit you can justify from a maker which is renound for decent sound quality. (Pioneer/Alpine for ease on the wallet or something like a Nakamichi if you really want to push the boat out). This is the major limiting factor as your system can only sound as good as the original signal - a high end head unit will put out a far better signal and will have the option of equalising the sound to get a clean and crisp sound out of your speakers. Even with the original speakers it is possible to get a very good quality sound thanks to the fact that the cabin is small, so does not require big power speakers to fill it, and the car is made of grp which insulates the sound very well, hence making the sound a lot fuller and more bassy than a conventional car.

If you want more bass in the cabin, a decent set of kevlar cone 6x9s will do the trick, though as has been said, they are fill speakers - a trade off between sound quality and volume whilst keeping as small as possible so you will never get as clear and crisp bass as could be had with a couple of good 8" subs. The best bet I reckon (for bass) would be to get a good set of 2 or even 3 way components mounted as high up as possible in the doors, with a couple of good quality 6 7 or 8" subs in the parcel shelf run off a good headunit or small 2 channel amp. To optimise efficiency, the frequencies not covered by the subs can be trimmed out of the rear signal using the headunit or amp settings in order to make sure none of the amp's power is wasted. And do replace that speaker cable!

Having said that, when I bought my car, it had the original Pioneer door speakers and a set of pretty old 6x9s in running off the original cd head unit. I chucked out the headunit in the first week and replaced it with a decent Pioneer one and the result was fantastic. Once eq'd properly i've managed to achieve a great sound out of the original speakers which I can still hear fine at 100mph with the roof off. The only slight problem is that the original Pioneer speakers have pretty puny magnets in them so can be a little dodgy at high volumes so i'll probably replace them with a decent set of components but its pretty fine as it is!

ray_von

2,876 posts

234 months

Friday 16th February 2007
quotequote all
Dave 500 said:
I think they were made by a company called Genesis


Genesis speakersscratchchin Genesis amps cloud9