Has Button broken Hamilton?

[Speedy11]

TheHeretic said:

Hamilton had the faster lap of the 2.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Docu...

Before the first pits, Button was catching Hamilton, Although there was feck all in it really.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Docu...

err no he wasn't


Ham But
2:03.650 2:04.743
2:05.093 2:05.677
2:07.896 2:08.213
2:11.167 2:16.303(PIT)

[TheHeretic]

Sorry, was on page 2 for some reason.

[bordseye]

Maybe Button cocked up but that isnt the point. Hamilton in a car that is faster than either the Ferrari or the Sauber did nothing other than follow them around for the latter part of the race. That isnt the Hamilton of two years ago.

[StevieBee]

bordseye said:

Maybe Button cocked up but that isnt the point. Hamilton in a car that is faster than either the Ferrari or the Sauber did nothing other than follow them around for the latter part of the race. That isnt the Hamilton of two years ago.

Well, he's two years older for a start. I'd guess he knows he's fighting four people for the championship; Button, Vettel and Webber. Although it would have been good to see some banzai laps and moves, the chances of him binning it on Sunday were high, so why risk it when your main rivals are behind and the two in front are there because of attrition. I sense a new level of maturity that may not be as exciting but perhaps more effective.

[MGJohn]

bordseye said:

Maybe Button cocked up

...

That isnt the Hamilton of two years ago.
.

You're right and wrong. Button made an error. No maybe about it. To this observer, did a "Lewis of two years ago". Lewis did not.

The Hamilton of two years ago would have had yet another DNF.

The competition today is far more formidable and more numerous than when Lewis first climbed into an F1 car for those first few years.
.

[Alfanatic]

StevieBee said:

...he knows he's fighting four people for the championship; Button, Vettel and Webber. ...

I know some have suggested that he's not the cleverest racer, but there's no reason to take the mickey

Edited by Alfanatic on Tuesday 27th March 20:47

[mattikake]

Hunky Dory said:

998420 said:

Hunky Dory said:

That's quite a statement. What makes you come to that conclusion?

Lewis is the best there is out there, and buy a long way. If you cannot see that, or disagree, fine, we are all entitled to our opinions..

Firstly, I was questioning how you concluded that he was the best driver for the last 35 years. I see you chose to ignore that point.

But in answer to your post. No. I don't even see him as the best out there "by a long way" currently, either. And nor have I done for the last few seasons. Given his finishing position in the WDC for the last few years and his position relative to his team mate last year, again I must ask how you come to this conclusion as well?

This has to be th worst case of you're-only-as-good-as-your-last-raceitis (or two) I've seen in... ooh a good couple of weeks.

LH was building up to be a total Senna-esque sensation. In a much more competitive era than Senna raced in in the feeder series', he was trashing everyone from the moment he entered single seater racing. Clearly the fastest. Clearly the most aggressive. Clearly with a unique style. Clearly with a racecraft way beyond his years. And so many rated drivers and expected F1 stars of the future, were put in the shade along the way.

Personally, I had been looking forward to his entry into F1 since 2003. Yet even I didn't expect him to beat Alonso in an equal car at his first attempt and it seems to be only the universe that disallowed him from winning a WDC at his first attempt with a freak gearbox glitch. I guess the universe is saving that once-only record for some other time...

To say he isn't any good because he had a mental calm issue last season seems... dumb and massively short-sighted. LH had been used to winning most races for years. Then with things beyond his control, he suddenly cannot. Maybe that's an experience thing? Maybe it's simple intelligence? But it's bound to have an effect.

If you want evidence of my opinion you need to watch his racing from 2003 onwards, because it seems like you haven't.

Lets not forget, F1 is the cream of the crop. 7bn people and only 24 are F1 drivers as Brundle put it. Given the car is worth so much and the pressures as high as ever, you can't shine every time. Even Senna didn't manage that and made plenty of errors and even had form issues for the last few races of 1988 and 1989 and even a few in 1991 and 1992. Does this harm his greatness?

Not that I say LH is as outstanding as Senna was in F1, but IMO the build-up to F1 certainly was. LH needs to net a few straight WDC's to get close to that mantle I reckon, but perhaps for the first time he has the right car at the right time, except the tyre situation will not suit his attack mentality... so he still has yet to reach the place Senna did from 1988 - 1991. And lets not forget, even Senna was beaten by his teammate in 1989...

Edited by mattikake on Tuesday 27th March 23:26

[MGJohn]

Some of us, no names no pack drill... ... do not rate Senna, Alonso or even Hamilton as the best. Best is a bit like a piece of string... how long is it?

Hamilton is not broke... He has lots of money ... ...Reality has caught up with him and has been catching up with him for at least three seasons. He must adapt because the goal posts have been moved in several directions. Not least that there are many drivers currently and for at least a season or two who are at least his equal. Given the 'right' car to them, who knows how Hamilton will be measured against all these 'new kids on the block' yardsticks.

His approach this season if sustained is much more likely to be successful given the current level and numbers of the real competition. He should have had at least one more WDC to add to his single rather fortunate Championship. Fortunate... How so? Ask Massa who for a few brief moments looked likely to be WDC until Hamilton had a massive stroke of fortune on an otherwise less than brilliant drive that day. Mind you, I cheered when witnessing that stroke of luck as I like to see British success, lucky or otherwise. More often than not, "our" luck is out.

That's how I see these things.

He's not the new messiah, he's simply a very lucky and talented racing car driver....
.

[AreOut]

if you ask me LH should have been punished even more than he's been...

[Scuffers]

AreOut said:

if you ask me LH should have been punished even more than he's been...

/aliG/ is that 'cause he's black?

[Use Psychology]

i love it when people try to make out that LH was fortunate to win the championship in 2008, as if he only won because he had some fortune.

they neglect that he very nearly won in 2007 save for a mechanical failure in the last race (and the mistake in china in the pit lane), and still beat his world champion team mate - that doesn't happen over a season because of fortune).

they neglect that in 2008 we saw some bonkers decisions against LH that seemed designed to prevent him from building a championship lead, or perhaps even winning one at all. Gaz mentions them - the penalty in Fuji was ridiculous and in Spa we saw a penalty given in a situation where normally none would - with precedent for doing the exact opposite, in fact. a new interpretation of the rules was invented seemingly just to screw LH over.

so, yes, some fortune was involved in 2008 for LH to get the championship, but he was there in the first place, where he needed to be, to capitalise on the fortune. I don't think anyone could argue that massa drove better than LH that year.

[Ecurie Ecosse]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Hamilton is Jacques Villeneuve.

Look at the evidence:

- Good first season, almost won championship.

- Won the championship in second season.

- Gets beaten by Jenson as a team mate.

- Dates a "pop star".

So many parallels. It's spooky.

[DanDC5]

Ecurie Ecosse said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Hamilton is Jacques Villeneuve.

Look at the evidence:

- Good first season, almost won championship.

- Won the championship in second season.

- Gets beaten by Jenson as a team mate.

- Dates a "pop star".

So many parallels. It's spooky.

Surely he can't have as much of a seemingly downhill slide in driving ability though? I liked Villeneuve but he is a classic case of 'the championship being all down to the car'

[Alfanatic]

Ecurie Ecosse said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Hamilton is Jacques Villeneuve.

Look at the evidence:

- Good first season, almost won championship.

- Won the championship in second season.

- Gets beaten by Jenson as a team mate.

- Dates a "pop star".

So many parallels. It's spooky.

Don't forget:
- Not shy to have a go and pulling off some ballsy overtaking moves.
- Qualifies rather well. I remember Villeneuve made a habit of parking his BAR a good few places up the grid compared to where it tended to run in the race, and then running around till the first pitstop with a train of cars behind him because he seemed to be bloody difficult to overtake.

Personally I'd say Villeneuve reminds me more of Piquet actually, in that he was as good as anyone when he was motivated, but seemed to lose focus once he got a championship.

But then, with all of them being racing drivers, I'm reckon it should be possible to draw up a list of four common points between just about any two of them.

[Hunky Dory]

mattikake said:

This has to be th worst case of you're-only-as-good-as-your-last-raceitis (or two) I've seen in... ooh a good couple of weeks

Really? Would you like to read what I actually posted instead of what you wanted to see?

Hunky Dory said:

I don't even see him as the best out there "by a long way" currently, either. And nor have I done for the last few seasons. Given his finishing position in the WDC for the last few years and his position relative to his team mate last year,again I must ask how you come to this conclusion as well?

I'll give you a hint, the important part is where I said "last few years". Look again, it's right there and nothing to do with "last raceitis" (please don't assume you are the only one to have followed His Holiness Hamilton since prior to F1. There are other Motorsport fans here as well, you know )

But anyway, that aside, you quote me as if to either contest or support my comments, yet I can't tell whether you agree or disagree with the views that he is either currently the "best by a long way", or the "best in the last 35 years"?

You go to great lengths to type a whole load of stuff, a portion of which I agree with, but mainly because you talk in past tense.  Perfect example:

mattikake said:

LH was building up to be a total Senna-esque sensation. In a much more competitive era than Senna raced in in the feeder series', he was trashing everyone from the moment he entered single seater racing. Clearly the fastest. Clearly the most aggressive. Clearly with a unique style. Clearly with a racecraft way beyond his years. And so many rated drivers and expected F1 stars of the future, were put in the shade along the way. 

The simple facts for me are that he was exceptional during F3/GP2 and did well in his first two seasons of F1. A WDC during that time was well deserved in my opinion. Had we been having this discussion in '09, I guess you and I would be agreeing with each other and proclaiming him as unmatched. But now we would be eating our words, as times have changed and Lewis hasn't changed with them to the same extent as others.

You like Lewis and his racing style. I get that and to an extent share the sentiment, but failing to finish higher than 4th for three years and being beaten by his team mate last year means (IMO) he has also failed to warrant being referred to as the "best by a long way". In fact, at the moment, I'm not sure any of the current line up justify that title, which is why this season is looking so exciting!

And please, don't troll out Brundle's " 7bn people and only 24 are good enough to be in F1" media-friendly catchphrase. I think everyone knows that's an infinitely flawed statement. We can't even agree on who's the best out of the 24, let's not start debating who's worthy out of 7bn!

[AreOut]

Scuffers said:

/aliG/ is that 'cause he's black?

no, the darker skin will not kill anyone but dangerous driving will, weaving from left to right in front of Petrov at speeds like 300 km/h is very dangerous if you ask me and there is a reason it is forbidden, Vettel&Webber (and nearby spectators) in Turkey were veeery lucky it all finished without consequences, I would punish Vettel for that a couple of races for sure nevermind Webber is his team-"mate"

[Scuffers]

AreOut said:

no, the darker skin will not kill anyone but dangerous driving will, weaving from left to right in front of Petrov at speeds like 300 km/h is very dangerous if you ask me and there is a reason it is forbidden, Vettel&Webber (and nearby spectators) in Turkey were veeery lucky it all finished without consequences, I would punish Vettel for that a couple of races for sure nevermind Webber is his team-"mate"

Sorry, that's total bullst.

The weaving as you put it was to break the aero toe, please explain in detail how this is dangerous? (its very much std practice in other classes of racing).

Are you trying to imply that he was blocking petrov? If yes then I suggest you look again, harder.

[davepoth]

Scuffers said:

Sorry, that's total bullst.

The weaving as you put it was to break the aero toe, please explain in detail how this is dangerous? (its very much std practice in other classes of racing).

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/81DF225EB...

Probably best to let the FIA explain it, eh?

The FIA said:

20.3 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off‐line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.

20.4 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.

[Scuffers]

And how does that apply to a 30+m wide main straight, under acceleration, etc?

(and consider this is the same FIA that has come up with all kinds of bullst to justify ste like this before)

[heebeegeetee]

AreOut said:

no, the darker skin will not kill anyone but dangerous driving will, weaving from left to right in front of Petrov at speeds like 300 km/h is very dangerous if you ask me and there is a reason it is forbidden, Vettel&Webber (and nearby spectators) in Turkey were veeery lucky it all finished without consequences, I would punish Vettel for that a couple of races for sure nevermind Webber is his team-"mate"

Why was it dangerous and why wasn't it forbidden at the time?