Has Button broken Hamilton?

Has Button broken Hamilton?

Author
Discussion

Melvin Udall

73,668 posts

202 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
quotequote all
Life Saab Itch said:
Indeed.

It's like management bullst has invaded motorsport.
I'm just curious how attractively he could have driven, then? Where would he have been attractive in the race? MSc pitted before he caught him, overtook Hamilton when his tyres were crap, Vettel pitted before Button could catch. It wasn't a drive through the field.

hotmelt

861 posts

120 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
quotequote all
Life Saab Itch said:
Melvin Udall said:
Not attractively?
Indeed.

It's like management bullst has invaded motorsport.
Unfortunatelly, although comparatively good race.

AJS-

15,366 posts

183 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
quotequote all
Hamilton has had a bad second half of the season, maybe the car doesn't suit him so well, and Button is on form. They're still only 32 points apart, and Button has 3 wins to Hamilton's 2, with 4 races to go.

If you look at the gap between Alonso and Massa, or Vettel and Webber then they are still a very evenly matched pair.

The difficulty Lewis must have psychologically is the expectations he and others had 3 years ago. At the end of 2008 he was WDC in his second season and already talking about making it 3. If someone had said "you'll be on a par with Button in 3 years time" then he wouldn't have taken it as high praise.

Button of course had a very different first few years in F1, and in my view we are now seeing the benefits of his tough apprenticeship.

LH still has huge talent, blinding speed and many years left in him. He's not broken at all, and could easily turn it around next year.

Melvin Udall

73,668 posts

202 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
quotequote all
AJS- said:
Button of course had a very different first few years in F1, and in my view we are now seeing the benefits of his tough apprenticeship.

LH still has huge talent, blinding speed and many years left in him. He's not broken at all, and could easily turn it around next year.
I've mentioned this a few times. Coming up through the smaller teams, or mid table teams must help during these times.

Jasandjules

63,278 posts

176 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
quotequote all
I think LH is not as happy as he could be or as I hope he would be. But I don't think anyone has "broken" him per se, I personally believe half of it is simply that he knows he didn't have a world championship winning car and that grates!

Megaflow

6,806 posts

172 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
quotequote all
I am a fan of all British drivers, and McLaren as a team, and Lewis is first choice, so to speak. I don't beleive Jenson has broken him, but I am begining to wonder if the media, and constant bhing such as this may well have done.

The guy has never changed his style for racing and he seems to have been beaten upon all year for it this year, there is only so much a person can take before they start to do something different or just ignore everybody.

Either way he is not in a good place at the minute.

entropy

3,786 posts

150 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
quotequote all
JB is more than just a number 2 but he's not a great driver compared to his rivals which means IMHO he's punishing LH's errors and mistakes.

Hopefully its a season to write off (a bit like Hill/1995) and comes back to his best.

RichB

42,418 posts

231 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
quotequote all
Castrol Craig said:
jesus wept, not this st again. It's becoming as much a part of PH folklore as...
Indeed but why do people answer it?

mollytherocker

14,348 posts

156 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
quotequote all
entropy said:
JB is more than just a number 2 but he's not a great driver compared to his rivals.
Why dont you think he is as good as his rivals?

MTR

Melvin Udall

73,668 posts

202 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
quotequote all
mollytherocker said:
Why dont you think he is as good as his rivals?

MTR
Because he is an ex WDC, and is second in the championship... Oh, wait...

TonyToniTone

2,657 posts

196 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
quotequote all
Melvin Udall said:
Because he is an ex WDC, and is second in the championship... Oh, wait...
So True laugh

AJS-

15,366 posts

183 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
quotequote all
Megaflow said:
The guy has never changed his style for racing and he seems to have been beaten upon all year for it this year, there is only so much a person can take before they start to do something different or just ignore everybody.
He's always been attacking and aggressive, but it hasn't always ended with a broken wing or a puncture.

Many of his moves this season have looked to be borne of frustration and desperation rather than an aggressive style.

The Pits

Original Poster:

4,289 posts

187 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
quotequote all
I actually think without the mistakes and failures mclaren could have pushed red bull to the end of the season. A big part of vettels dominance is the freakish reliability record of the car. A more normal season with a few dnf's and a few mclaren one twos would have seen them right up there. The car has won 5 races and there's nothing in it performance wise anymore. I think that's what's getting to LH, the car is good so he has only himself and the team to blame.

I personally suspect both him and Schumacher think all this tyre management is rubbish and frustrating. They both just want to go flat out to the flag but instead you've got engineers in your ear telling you to make the tyres last. Without a change in that I can't see LH enjoying 2012 much more either. Which would be a real shame as he is a huge talent.

Melvin Udall

73,668 posts

202 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
quotequote all
Tyres have always required management. It's not a new thing.

donna180

627 posts

108 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
quotequote all
The Pits said:
I actually think without the mistakes and failures mclaren could have pushed red bull to the end of the season. A big part of vettels dominance is the freakish reliability record of the car. A more normal season with a few dnf's and a few mclaren one twos would have seen them right up there. The car has won 5 races and there's nothing in it performance wise anymore. I think that's what's getting to LH, the car is good so he has only himself and the team to blame.

I personally suspect both him and Schumacher think all this tyre management is rubbish and frustrating. They both just want to go flat out to the flag but instead you've got engineers in your ear telling you to make the tyres last. Without a change in that I can't see LH enjoying 2012 much more either. Which would be a real shame as he is a huge talent.
Agree with reliability.

Interestingly Mclaren were only about a tenth slower than RB in Malaysia (round 2)qualie and similarly so at Suzuka... I really wonder whether the Mclaren has been any slower than the RB this year even earlier in the season - the Mclaren certainly looked strong in Spain with their KERS setup.

I think tyres are a good point - Schumacher's dominant form came to the fore when races were changed into a series of sprints - favouring the young and fit over careful tyre management. Before then Brundle compared quite well in the races.

Mr_Thyroid

1,773 posts

174 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
quotequote all
It's the errors rather than out-and-out pace that have cost Hamilton this year. Today it was the qualifying error and the puncture that sealed his fate and meant he was always a few laps behind with his tyre strategy. Otherwise it may well have been a McLaren 1-2.

NNNick

213 posts

166 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
quotequote all
cayman-black said:
Castrol Craig said:
jesus wept, not this st again.

its becoming as much a part of PH folklore as

mx5
335d, mapped
throwing cans of red bull
powerfully built
oxo tower
polished pistons
ambiwlans
Blown Porsche engines.
What about KTC Pure Butter Ghee?

Melvin Udall

73,668 posts

202 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
quotequote all
Lewis didn't seem to lose that much time from the Puncture, to be honest. I'll have to watch it again, but Hamilton did his stop, then when Jenson did his, he was only a few seconds in front of Hamilton.

Use Psychology

11,327 posts

139 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
quotequote all
Melvin Udall said:
Lewis didn't seem to lose that much time from the Puncture, to be honest. I'll have to watch it again, but Hamilton did his stop, then when Jenson did his, he was only a few seconds in front of Hamilton.
but it forced him into the pits early which meant he took a lot more pain at the end of his second stint, on much older tyres than everyone else. If I was lewis in 2nd place after the start my plan would have been to cruise and not pressure vettel, get back onto an even tyre keel with the competitors (remember LH's tyres had already done more laps than JB's and SV's) and then begin to push after the first pit stop.

Mr_Thyroid

1,773 posts

174 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
quotequote all
Melvin Udall said:
Lewis didn't seem to lose that much time from the Puncture, to be honest. I'll have to watch it again, but Hamilton did his stop, then when Jenson did his, he was only a few seconds in front of Hamilton.
He was second before the puncture then dropped back to holding up Alonso through the chicane. He then came out of the pits in 11th behind a bunch of slower cars.