Has Button broken Hamilton?

Has Button broken Hamilton?

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Discussion

Melvin Udall

73,668 posts

202 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
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Mr_Thyroid said:
He was second before the puncture then dropped back to holding up Alonso through the chicane. He then came out of the pits in 11th behind a bunch of slower cars.
As I remember it, he came out a few seconds behind Button once they had both taken their first stops. Anyone know his lap times on his second stint, compared to the others on theirs?

Megaflow

6,805 posts

172 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
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AJS- said:
He's always been attacking and aggressive, but it hasn't always ended with a broken wing or a puncture.

Many of his moves this season have looked to be borne of frustration and desperation rather than an aggressive style.
I agree, but I think he is getting extremely tired of all the moaning and complaints. Most of which, he see's as unjustified.

Life Saab Itch

37,068 posts

135 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
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donna180 said:
Interestingly Mclaren were only about a tenth slower than RB in Malaysia (round 2)qualie and similarly so at Suzuka... I really wonder whether the Mclaren has been any slower than the RB this year even earlier in the season - the Mclaren certainly looked strong in Spain with their KERS setup.
rolleyesbanghead

Jesus wept.

davepoth

29,395 posts

146 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
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I think Hamilton has had issues with the Pirellis. His style suits them in qualifying, but he completely mullers them in the race. Button has been the reverse, but he's now getting there with the qualifying. Lewis hasn't taken the time this year to alter his driving style like everyone else has done, and that's what's hurting him IMO. That and needing to calm down - even Murray Walker said so in his BBC piece last week.

Chrisgr31

11,248 posts

202 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
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I dont think that Hamiliton is broken, he's just had a run of bad luck, and if memory serves me right Button had a poor run of luck earlier in the season.

Surely the reality is that Hamiton is the teams young charger with Button there to pick up the pieces on the occasions when it goes wrong. McLaren have always held the team championship as important and Button and Hamiliton offers them the best chance of winning that.

Personally I think they make a great team and its good to see them interacting so well.

donna180

627 posts

108 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
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Life Saab Itch said:
donna180 said:
Interestingly Mclaren were only about a tenth slower than RB in Malaysia (round 2)qualie and similarly so at Suzuka... I really wonder whether the Mclaren has been any slower than the RB this year even earlier in the season - the Mclaren certainly looked strong in Spain with their KERS setup.
rolleyesbanghead

Jesus wept.
'Cos he had to drive a Saab or because if Jenson had outqualified Lewis in Malaysia he probably would have won rather than finish a couple of seconds behind Vettel. As it was he started behind Lewis and Webber and thus lost the win.... smile

I think if you look at several races in detail it's been very marginal for RB.

coetzeeh

1,830 posts

183 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
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Button has taken advantage of Lewis' state of mind which has been long in the making, not just 2011.

Ron's out.
LH dad's out.
LH has never had to cope with not winning everything before F1 (and he won loads in '07 and '08 so count 09 onwards).
Shirtslinger is in.
Fuller is in.
Gangsta celeb mates in.

A few years ago LH was ALL about racing, and little about image. That's changed.


superkartracer

8,734 posts

169 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
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Yes he's a broken man, it's very sad to see.... i cried

Clevers

1,164 posts

148 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
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The Pits said:
LH seems a broken man now. Is JB's success in the same car the final straw or is it just about tyre management these days. I imagine it's killing lewis having to hold back so much during a race.
No, Vettel has broken Hamilton by taking his mantle as the fastest driver in F1. Button has upped his level and taken advantage of Lewis in the duldrums.

DJRC

23,563 posts

183 months

Sunday 9th October 2011
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Life Saab Itch said:
donna180 said:
Interestingly Mclaren were only about a tenth slower than RB in Malaysia (round 2)qualie and similarly so at Suzuka... I really wonder whether the Mclaren has been any slower than the RB this year even earlier in the season - the Mclaren certainly looked strong in Spain with their KERS setup.
rolleyesbanghead

Jesus wept.
Indeed. We covered this back in May where it was pointed out that actually the Macca was the quicker race car.

slipstream 1985

6,662 posts

126 months

Monday 10th October 2011
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i think lewis genuinly pines for the olden days when tyre management just wasn't a crucial part of the race

entropy

3,786 posts

150 months

Monday 10th October 2011
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mollytherocker said:
entropy said:
JB is more than just a number 2 but he's not a great driver compared to his rivals.
Why dont you think he is as good as his rivals?

MTR
As I said, he's more than a #2 but short of greatness so in other words I'd probably put him with Mansell and Raikkonen.

JB needs a car which is right for him and not very good at driving round a car's problems.

What really annoys me are cool dry conditions and tyre temperature problems. I remember he was suffering from this in 2006, spent time on it in testing and still couldn't find a solution. I found it laughable he was weaving on the straights at the 2009 German GP and Rubens had no such problem - which leads me to believe me it was more car than driver that year and compare that with Hamilton getting 2 wins in a dog of a car.

I rate JB and I think JB's win in Japan is his best ever. He's made a name of himself in wet/dry conditions, a bit of one trick pony - I'm sure I've insulted the fanboy! biggrin I think that drive/win it says it all. Doing it in the wet was one thing, doing it in dry is another.

hotmelt

861 posts

120 months

Monday 10th October 2011
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entropy said:
As I said, he's more than a #2 but short of greatness so in other words I'd probably put him with Mansell and Raikkonen.

JB needs a car which is right for him and not very good at driving round a car's problems.

What really annoys me are cool dry conditions and tyre temperature problems. I remember he was suffering from this in 2006, spent time on it in testing and still couldn't find a solution. I found it laughable he was weaving on the straights at the 2009 German GP and Rubens had no such problem - which leads me to believe me it was more car than driver that year and compare that with Hamilton getting 2 wins in a dog of a car.

I rate JB and I think JB's win in Japan is his best ever. He's made a name of himself in wet/dry conditions, a bit of one trick pony - I'm sure I've insulted the fanboy! biggrin I think that drive/win it says it all. Doing it in the wet was one thing, doing it in dry is another.
Please do not put Mansell in the same sentence as Raikkonen, also Button. I think Button is better than Raikonnen(overvalued), but Mansell is all time great.

DJRC

23,563 posts

183 months

Monday 10th October 2011
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hotmelt said:
entropy said:
As I said, he's more than a #2 but short of greatness so in other words I'd probably put him with Mansell and Raikkonen.

JB needs a car which is right for him and not very good at driving round a car's problems.

What really annoys me are cool dry conditions and tyre temperature problems. I remember he was suffering from this in 2006, spent time on it in testing and still couldn't find a solution. I found it laughable he was weaving on the straights at the 2009 German GP and Rubens had no such problem - which leads me to believe me it was more car than driver that year and compare that with Hamilton getting 2 wins in a dog of a car.

I rate JB and I think JB's win in Japan is his best ever. He's made a name of himself in wet/dry conditions, a bit of one trick pony - I'm sure I've insulted the fanboy! biggrin I think that drive/win it says it all. Doing it in the wet was one thing, doing it in dry is another.
Please do not put Mansell in the same sentence as Raikkonen, also Button. I think Button is better than Raikonnen(overvalued), but Mansell is all time great.
Well your first bit is true.
If Mansell is an all time great, then Im Chuck fking Yeager.

BigBen

9,875 posts

177 months

Monday 10th October 2011
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DJRC said:
hotmelt said:
entropy said:
As I said, he's more than a #2 but short of greatness so in other words I'd probably put him with Mansell and Raikkonen.

JB needs a car which is right for him and not very good at driving round a car's problems.

What really annoys me are cool dry conditions and tyre temperature problems. I remember he was suffering from this in 2006, spent time on it in testing and still couldn't find a solution. I found it laughable he was weaving on the straights at the 2009 German GP and Rubens had no such problem - which leads me to believe me it was more car than driver that year and compare that with Hamilton getting 2 wins in a dog of a car.

I rate JB and I think JB's win in Japan is his best ever. He's made a name of himself in wet/dry conditions, a bit of one trick pony - I'm sure I've insulted the fanboy! biggrin I think that drive/win it says it all. Doing it in the wet was one thing, doing it in dry is another.
Please do not put Mansell in the same sentence as Raikkonen, also Button. I think Button is better than Raikonnen(overvalued), but Mansell is all time great.
Well your first bit is true.
If Mansell is an all time great, then Im Chuck fking Yeager.
Impressive that you can post from beyond the grave Chuck.

homer3uk

454 posts

178 months

Monday 10th October 2011
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One thing i've noticed is that the RB is no longer the quickest car, (or at least not by a country mile). I firmly belive the Macca has caught up in the second half of the season. The only reason the RB is still constently on pole and contesting wins so strongly is that Seb is truely a worthy champ. There have been many close quali sessions, especially this weekend, but Seb has done everything expected and more to make sure he can become a double WC. Jenson has settled into the team well and this season has shown that his WDC was no fluke. Some very mature driving this season and has often made the most of a poor situation. Lewis has certainly looked distracted. His attiduded has changed and now that the business end of the grid has become highly competitive he is strugling to come to terms with not just going out and winning. I belive his first two seasons were blessed by having the best car. Recently the Macca hasn't been top car, competivive just not the best. This is new to him and not having the best tools available has made him throw his toys from the pram. If i'm honest all Lewis has done this year is proove that he is just an average-good F1 driver. Not the messiah he has been made out to be. Seb may have had some serious tools to play with this year but his persona is that of a top F1 driver, Focused, hard working and with one goal in mind.
Jenson has prooved he can cut it at the top in a top team.

Seb's Prooving he can become the sports next big legend.

Lewis is proving he's not the greatest driver of a generation, not bad, just not the greatest.

Forbes82

812 posts

126 months

Monday 10th October 2011
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hotmelt said:
Please do not put Mansell in the same sentence as Raikkonen, also Button. I think Button is better than Raikonnen(overvalued), but Mansell is all time great.
I think as it stands you would probably be right in putting Mansell above Button, however Jensons f1 career (much like Nigels) took its time to get going due to machinery. With 3-5+ years in a mclaren JB will grab alot more wins and possibly even another WDC. If JB retired now he wouldn't be remembered the same as Nigel is, but i think in a few years time Jenson could be viewed in the same bracket.

I dont see Mansell as an all time great, rather sitting just below that bracket. Personally i think an all time great has to establish themselves as the greatest of thier era, almost viewed as 'different' and 'special' compared to the rest of the field due to sheer talent. Fangio/Clark/Senna/Schumi all probably demonstrated this to the greatest extent. Mansell, while good, was never viewed as Sennas equal, nor Prost.

No disrespect to Mansell, he was an exciting driver with alot of talent, i just don't think he was *quite* at the level of the very best of the very best.

CaptainSensib1e

1,251 posts

168 months

Monday 10th October 2011
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As far as Lewis is concerned this season is over. Ther's nothing really for him to salvage, although a race win would be good for his confidence. He's needs a coupe of months off, and to get his head toghether. He's disappointed in himself and that's why his head is down. With some time to reflect I'm sure he will come back fighting in 2012.

I think next season is shaping up to be a classic. There's only a rizla betwen the Maccas and Red Bulls in terms of performnace now, and Ferrari aren't far behind either. So your going to have 4 drivers (all ex-world champions) with a genuine shout of taking the title.

I honestly cannot wait, although am more than a little sad I won't be able to watch all the races live and in full (but that's a discussion for another thread...)

Melvin Udall

73,668 posts

202 months

Monday 10th October 2011
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This isn't the first season Hamilton has been beaten, in the championship, at least. He's had 5 seasons in F1, and won the WDC once. I'm not sure being beaten hasn't had this effect before. It is something else, I think.

mollytherocker

14,348 posts

156 months

Monday 10th October 2011
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Melvin Udall said:
This isn't the first season Hamilton has been beaten, in the championship, at least. He's had 5 seasons in F1, and won the WDC once. I'm not sure being beaten hasn't had this effect before. It is something else, I think.
This is the first time that Lewis has been beaten (Ok not yet) by a team mate in F1. In fact, Im not sure hes ever beaten by a team mate in any formula has he?

MTR