RE: Le Mans 2012: The hybrids cometh
Discussion
Vocal Minority said:
Didn't take long for the Pistonheads 'I don't like change' brigade to emerge.
Fascinating technology and certainly the future (whether people like it or not).
LMP1 will be dull judging by Spa, but that depends on just how good the Toyota is - as they weren't there!) Peugeot were fairly quick out the box on their debut, so whilst Audi are clear favourites, they may not have it all their own way.
Change is not always a good thing, LMP1 is good for business as a test bed but not good for the excitement factor. Unless your happy to see new technology rather than competitive racing of which LMP1 Le Mans clearly is not. Fascinating technology and certainly the future (whether people like it or not).
LMP1 will be dull judging by Spa, but that depends on just how good the Toyota is - as they weren't there!) Peugeot were fairly quick out the box on their debut, so whilst Audi are clear favourites, they may not have it all their own way.
So having a preference of cars (Competitive) with big petrol engines that make noise and rev over 5K is clearly not resistance to change, Its motorsport and for the majority the reason so many of us enjoy (enjoy'd) watching Le Mans.
PW said:
So... you missed the HPD chasing down the Oreca Peugeot at Sebring 2011, or the win by 13 seconds at Le Mans...?
What of the fact that LMP2 cars are petrol powered, make lots of noise, but aren't really generating much in the way of edge-of-the seat racing?
I stated Le Mans so Sebring is out of the picture as far as this topic goes and the 13 second win was between two very DULL sounding dervs. There is no way of getting around it, no matter how close the dervs are, they sound like trucks and leave me completely cold. It doesn't help that they have a rather large competitive advantage over the petrol cars in the class meaning the same top two manufactures year on year. I would rather see petrol's at the front of the field every time and diesels removed from the race all together. At least then we have more chance of an exciting, non truck sounding competitive race between more than the likes of Audi and Peugot. It's all down to preference of course but IMO your petrol roots are long gone if your happy to see diesels dominating Le Mans year upon year.What of the fact that LMP2 cars are petrol powered, make lots of noise, but aren't really generating much in the way of edge-of-the seat racing?
As far as I am concerned there are sufficient good noises on offer at Le Mans, and racing is about more than just the sound.
If you think LMP1 is poor for the variation in fuel types that is fair enough. I just happen to think you are wrong I am afraid! I like the variety the audi whoosh mobiles bring. You wouldn't want them all to be deisels of course, but I am all for the variety.
The reason that only one team is in with a chance isn't deisels problem, its the fact that Audi throw millions at it.
If you think LMP1 is poor for the variation in fuel types that is fair enough. I just happen to think you are wrong I am afraid! I like the variety the audi whoosh mobiles bring. You wouldn't want them all to be deisels of course, but I am all for the variety.
The reason that only one team is in with a chance isn't deisels problem, its the fact that Audi throw millions at it.
Vocal Minority said:
The reason that only one team is in with a chance isn't deisels problem, its the fact that Audi throw millions at it.
Not sure why this fact is so hard for people to understand. The only reason they have beaten Peugeot at Le Mans is because they are more organised, the Pugs have always been quicker so Audi aren't unbeatable. No one else has stepped up. Vocal Minority said:
As far as I am concerned there are sufficient good noises on offer at Le Mans, and racing is about more than just the sound.
If you think LMP1 is poor for the variation in fuel types that is fair enough. I just happen to think you are wrong I am afraid! I like the variety the audi whoosh mobiles bring. You wouldn't want them all to be deisels of course, but I am all for the variety.
The reason that only one team is in with a chance isn't deisels problem, its the fact that Audi throw millions at it.
As I said it is preference, they may bring variation but it is not without an unfair advantage on the petrol powered cars. This is the turn off for me, if they were able to handicap the dervs so that the petrols had a chance then fair enough but that is far from the case. If you think LMP1 is poor for the variation in fuel types that is fair enough. I just happen to think you are wrong I am afraid! I like the variety the audi whoosh mobiles bring. You wouldn't want them all to be deisels of course, but I am all for the variety.
The reason that only one team is in with a chance isn't deisels problem, its the fact that Audi throw millions at it.
Perhaps its time that they introduce a new LMP1TDIHDI class :-) Maybe then I could see it differently.
robmlufc said:
Vocal Minority said:
The reason that only one team is in with a chance isn't deisels problem, its the fact that Audi throw millions at it.
Not sure why this fact is so hard for people to understand. The only reason they have beaten Peugeot at Le Mans is because they are more organised, the Pugs have always been quicker so Audi aren't unbeatable. No one else has stepped up. vz-r_dave said:
As I said it is preference, they may bring variation but it is not without an unfair advantage on the petrol powered cars. This is the turn off for me, if they were able to handicap the dervs so that the petrols had a chance then fair enough but that is far from the case.
Pretty sure Audi were dominating Le Mans with a petrol car not too long ago... Seems alot of the argument is not over the diesel vs petrol racing, but the diesel vs petrol sound.
We are funny creatures, so affected by the aural stimuli. That's why manufacturers fit artificial sound generators into quiet sport cars so the driver "feels" more of a sense of occasion. Maybe the future all electric LMP1 class should be fitted with external sound generators to please the crowds, or maybe this is just a time served reaction to rises in pitch and tempo from the current generations lifetime association with the internal combustion engine, future generations who grow up in electric cars, may not be so affected.
While I love the internal combustion engine, racing isn't about the motive power, its about the driver skill on track and the team ingenuity to bring a class beating car within strict regulations.
We are funny creatures, so affected by the aural stimuli. That's why manufacturers fit artificial sound generators into quiet sport cars so the driver "feels" more of a sense of occasion. Maybe the future all electric LMP1 class should be fitted with external sound generators to please the crowds, or maybe this is just a time served reaction to rises in pitch and tempo from the current generations lifetime association with the internal combustion engine, future generations who grow up in electric cars, may not be so affected.
While I love the internal combustion engine, racing isn't about the motive power, its about the driver skill on track and the team ingenuity to bring a class beating car within strict regulations.
I'm looking forward to this years Le Mans (as usual) I cant see the LMP1 race being anywhere near as exiting as last year though. 2011 was one of the real classics. Looking forward to the new Truth in 24 film 
I'm interested to see if Toyota can get anywhere near the Audi's. Its a shame they have so many cars making it harder for other teams to get a look in.
Im not a fan of diesel as a fuel but they do have a certain stealth woosh to them. We just need a works team with a big budget to bring petrol to the front again
I'm interested to see if Toyota can get anywhere near the Audi's. Its a shame they have so many cars making it harder for other teams to get a look in.
Im not a fan of diesel as a fuel but they do have a certain stealth woosh to them. We just need a works team with a big budget to bring petrol to the front again
PW said:
vz-r_dave said:
the 13 second win was between two very DULL sounding dervs.
And there the argument dies... it's so irrational. You want cake, you have cake, but you won't eat it because it is the wrong sort of cake.vz-r_dave said:
your petrol roots are long gone if your happy to see diesels dominating Le Mans year upon year.
My "petrol roots"? I'm a fan of motor racing, not a hydrocarbon thanks. They could be powered by tomatoes or puréed leprechauns as far as I'm concerned.I like the diesels because they are new and different, and I like that even when they don't need to, Audi regularly come up with a new, unproven piece of technology and not only do they make it work, they make it win.
That doesn't stop me from enjoying the petrol cars any less - I'm just as interested in the Toyota, HPDs, the Rebellion Lolas, Dome; and of course the GT classes are a hoot. And that's why I like WEC/ALMS endurance racing - it is all about variety - where else do you get to see such a diverse grid of teams & cars lining up? The diesels, hybrids and Deltawing just add to that mix, and add another dimension of interest.
I don't enjoy mustard on my hotdogs, but I'm not going to say they should ban it from Le Mans campsites...
E38Ross said:
agree with PW here. just because they sound dull doesn't make the racing boring. i've been watching le mans since before the diesels came along and i thought last year was probably the best race ever.
Agree too. Its just 4 cars out of 50 odd, plenty more going on. Will be interesting to see if Audi let them all race like they did at Spa, seems to be quite a rivalry between the e-trons and Ultras. The 'petrol' class is pretty packed, the Dome was massively quick at Spa but had a few electrical issues.
Pretty confident that Audi will not finish 1-2-3-4, they will have issues at somepoint. Another Audi display like last year and Toyota, Rebellion, Dome, Pescarolo, Strakka and JRM are all in with a chance of the overall win.
scubadude said:
Looks interesting to me, be curious to see how the Deltawing thing behaves against the mixed opposition.
Why are the diesels so disapointing aurually, I guess the turbo eats the "noise"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFwoxM1MiBwWhy are the diesels so disapointing aurually, I guess the turbo eats the "noise"?
6:35 - 8:10 its all about the sensitive quiet sex!
As far as sound goes the diesels sound a lot better than the 4 banger in that Deltawing thing. There are certainly worse noises.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS8f-KSAJnw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cS8f-KSAJnw
vz-r_dave said:
As I said it is preference, they may bring variation but it is not without an unfair advantage on the petrol powered cars. This is the turn off for me, if they were able to handicap the dervs so that the petrols had a chance then fair enough but that is far from the case.
Perhaps its time that they introduce a new LMP1TDIHDI class :-) Maybe then I could see it differently.
We need less control not more. You restrict diesel cars your giving petrol an unfair advantage.Perhaps its time that they introduce a new LMP1TDIHDI class :-) Maybe then I could see it differently.
I doubt you'll ever see a diesel F1 car because it is not a good fuel for F1. For endurence racing any fuel that keeps you out on track longer is better. Using the best parts for the situation is not an unfair advantage, it's good engineering. It's not like other teams don't have access to diesel.
PaulMoor said:
vz-r_dave said:
As I said it is preference, they may bring variation but it is not without an unfair advantage on the petrol powered cars. This is the turn off for me, if they were able to handicap the dervs so that the petrols had a chance then fair enough but that is far from the case.
Perhaps its time that they introduce a new LMP1TDIHDI class :-) Maybe then I could see it differently.
We need less control not more. You restrict diesel cars your giving petrol an unfair advantage.Perhaps its time that they introduce a new LMP1TDIHDI class :-) Maybe then I could see it differently.
I doubt you'll ever see a diesel F1 car because it is not a good fuel for F1. For endurence racing any fuel that keeps you out on track longer is better. Using the best parts for the situation is not an unfair advantage, it's good engineering. It's not like other teams don't have access to diesel.
people keep thinking it's the diesels have an advantage, it's Audi. do people not remember the nickname for the old LMP1 car....the R8? "the dominator". IIRC....that was petrol
E38Ross said:
people keep thinking it's the diesels have an advantage, it's Audi. do people not remember the nickname for the old LMP1 car....the R8? "the dominator". IIRC....that was petrol
Yup, its not much different to F1. Red Bull are a few seconds a lap quicker than HRT but they all have the same rules. I dont see why Audi wouldn't still be a few seconds a lap quicker if they ran a petrol. Gassing Station | General Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff