RE: Le Mans 2012: The hybrids cometh

[Bolognese]

A petrol Audi has not been ruled out.

I started a thread on it a little while ago: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Seems Baretsky is keen to have a go with petrol.

[PeXy]

E38Ross said:

PaulMoor said:

vz-r_dave said:

As I said it is preference, they may bring variation but it is not without an unfair advantage on the petrol powered cars. This is the turn off for me, if they were able to handicap the dervs so that the petrols had a chance then fair enough but that is far from the case.

Perhaps its time that they introduce a new LMP1TDIHDI class :-) Maybe then I could see it differently.

We need less control not more. You restrict diesel cars your giving petrol an unfair advantage.

I doubt you'll ever see a diesel F1 car because it is not a good fuel for F1. For endurence racing any fuel that keeps you out on track longer is better. Using the best parts for the situation is not an unfair advantage, it's good engineering. It's not like other teams don't have access to diesel.

exactly. it's like i said earlier, odd isn't it how people are encouraged to race more efficient now so Audi bring the diesels and flatten everyone so they make it so the diesels have a smaller tank....where is the incentive for the other teams to go diesel?

people keep thinking it's the diesels have an advantage, it's Audi. do people not remember the nickname for the old LMP1 car....the R8? "the dominator". IIRC....that was petrol

I was under the impression it was more to do with Audi's bigger budget, and the petrol car have air ristrictors(spelling) stoping any hope of them beating the Diesels.

[E38Ross]

PeXy said:

I was under the impression it was more to do with Audi's bigger budget, and the petrol car have air ristrictors(spelling) stoping any hope of them beating the Diesels.

No, they restricted the air restrictors on the diesels to make it more unfair to the diesel audis.

If audi went to petrol they'd also win imo. They're fantastic at le mans.

[hairykrishna]

A lot of it's budget, isn't it? Money=speed regardless of what fuel you're running on. The fact that Audi are a well drilled Le Mans winning machine when it comes to the support side helps of course.

[E38Ross]

hairykrishna said:

A lot of it's budget, isn't it? Money=speed regardless of what fuel you're running on. The fact that Audi are a well drilled Le Mans winning machine when it comes to the support side helps of course.

This. Why people keep saying that the diesels have an unfair advantage is beyond me. To make it equal, shouldn't they all have the same fuel tank size, turbochargers, air restrictors etc etc.

[Nick M]

E38Ross said:

hairykrishna said:

A lot of it's budget, isn't it? Money=speed regardless of what fuel you're running on. The fact that Audi are a well drilled Le Mans winning machine when it comes to the support side helps of course.

This. Why people keep saying that the diesels have an unfair advantage is beyond me. To make it equal, shouldn't they all have the same fuel tank size, turbochargers, air restrictors etc etc.

And budget...

Actually that's me being somewhat flippant, but on a technicality, petrol and diesel aren't directly comparable as they have different calorific values, so if you have the cars with the same specs but different fuels, I think the petrol cars would be quite a bit quicker (diesels are currently allowed larger engine capacity, bigger restrictors and higher boost pressures). However, the diesel might make up for that by being able to lap for longer on the same amount of fuel (diesel has a higher calorific value than petrol).

There is also the small matter of torque - there was an article (I think on Mulsannes corner) where they were talking about the lap times of petrol vs. diesel, and how a not insignificant advantage for the diesels was the amount of torque they have which gets them out of the corner and up to speed quicker than the petrol cars. Basically the conclusion, from what I recall, was that until they were able to find a way of getting some equivalence on torque between petrol and diesel, the diesels were always going to be quicker.

[PeXy]

E38Ross said:

PeXy said:

I was under the impression it was more to do with Audi's bigger budget, and the petrol car have air ristrictors(spelling) stoping any hope of them beating the Diesels.

No, they restricted the air restrictors on the diesels to make it more unfair to the diesel audis.

If audi went to petrol they'd also win imo. They're fantastic at le mans.

Thats sort of my point, because of the budget and developement they can't be matched, I'm sure they have restrictors in the petrols though I remember a big who-ha about it.

[PaulMoor]

PeXy said:

Thats sort of my point, because of the budget and developement they can't be matched, I'm sure they have restrictors in the petrols though I remember a big who-ha about it.

Yep. I seem to remember the McLaren F1 road car was more powerful than the GTR due to restrictors.

[jetpilot]

I am with Vzr Dave on this one, i know its a long time since sounds like this were familiar but i for one think its truly sad we arent blessed by such noises!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NckAj8YVXw&fea...

Of courses the noises have been replaced but they will never make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up like the above

Noises are a a huge part of motor sport to me. Have you ever stood in a forest stage of a rally where you cant see a car, but hear it? Been to the TT where you hear a bike disappearing into the distance, its awe inspiring and much more evocative than any wooshy noise ever could be!

I have never been a hug fan of Le Mans, am i not led to believe that we dont have petrols in Lm1 because there is little point developing a petrol engine as it is in essence pointless because they know they cant compete because of the restrictions? Is emissions also not a factor?

I also thought the whole reasons for the diesels was a technological showcase, seems like we are getting the same thing with hybrids!

I would prefer to set a budget and say, race what you like with no restrictions!

[jetpilot]

PW said:

There are 56 entrants for Le Mans, 13 in LMP1 - only 4 diesels.

So... what was your point?

Ah sarcasm, i am familiar with that!

So, if you going to quote me, at least quote the whole sentence with regard to my comments with noise or it seems a bit pointless, just like your reply!

With regard to petrols, more so Lm1,i mean ones that are able to go head to head with the diesels!

I made a simple post about why i agree with someone on here with regard to noise, whilst you may want to try and be clever and question it, you cant, its what "I" prefer, that is point, its my preference!

Do you want to have another try at telling me what i think, you sound like my wife!!!!

[Ahonen]

jetpilot said:

I have never been a hug fan of Le Mans, am i not led to believe that we dont have petrols in Lm1 because there is little point developing a petrol engine as it is in essence pointless because they know they cant compete because of the restrictions? Is emissions also not a factor?

Not read the original story, have you? The Toyota is a petrol hybrid. Then there are various Lolas, the Dome, Pescarolos etc. There are, as mentioned, only four diesels out of 13 LMP1 cars. And then there are the other classes, so that's 52 loud cars.

The diesels have particulate filters, but that's to cut down on the smoke - there are no emissions regs per se.

The sound of the Mazda in your video was awful if you had to be exposed to it for long periods. Volker Weidler, one of the 787's drivers, had to retire from motorsport due to the damage to his hearing the car caused.

[jetpilot]

Ahonen said:

Not read the original story, have you? The Toyota is a petrol hybrid. Then there are various Lolas, the Dome, Pescarolos etc. There are, as mentioned, only four diesels out of 13 LMP1 cars. And then there are the other classes, so that's 52 loud cars.

The diesels have particulate filters, but that's to cut down on the smoke - there are no emissions regs per se.

The sound of the Mazda in your video was awful if you had to be exposed to it for long periods. Volker Weidler, one of the 787's drivers, had to retire from motorsport due to the damage to his hearing the car caused.

Another one who doesn't like an opinion contrary to theirs!

I didnt condemn anyone for enjoying it, just offered an opinion in keeping with another user!

And the sound of the Mazda is again, an opinion! However, I enjoy the aspect you think quoting a case in hand justifies your reason for response, rather sadly! Johnny Herbert seems to have no problem with his hearing!!

[Ahonen]

jetpilot said:

Another one who doesn't like an opinion contrary to theirs!

I didnt condemn anyone for enjoying it, just offered an opinion in keeping with another user!

And the sound of the Mazda is again, an opinion! However, I enjoy the aspect you think quoting a case in hand justifies your reason for response, rather sadly! Johnny Herbert seems to have no problem with his hearing!!

There are petrol LMP1 cars:
that is a fact.

My other comment was merely related to your Mazda video.

Jim Clark's hearing was damaged when he did Le Mans in a Lotus Elite. Does the fact that his co-driver's hearing wasn't damaged mean that Clark's problem was a figment of his imagination?

[E38Ross]

it means he should have worn ear plugs, no?

[freedman]

In 2 years time Porsche will be back with an LMP 1 car, it wont be a diesel.

It's almost certain to be a hybrid though, and likely to win (though I doubt Audi will run against their VAG stablemates)

[E38Ross]

freedman said:

In 2 years time Porsche will be back with an LMP 1 car, it wont be a diesel.

It's almost certain to be a hybrid though, and likely to win (though I doubt Audi will run against their VAG stablemates)

likely to win? maybe it's got an advantage of being able to work to any potential rule changes for the future right now, and not having to work to current rules (if any changes are known?)

no team has been as dominant as Audi over the period of a decade, EVER. so no reason why porsche should necessarily trump them in their 1st outing....?

[nice audi driver]

Back on the topic of hybrids at Le Mans, not petrol vs diesel, it's a shame that Hope Racing aren't returning this year with their hybrid. Not a front runner by any means but I'd like to see how they got on with another year under their belt with their car, since they were the first hybrid to run at Le Mans.

[Bolognese]

jetpilot said:

I am with Vzr Dave on this one, i know its a long time since sounds like this were familiar but i for one think its truly sad we arent blessed by such noises!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NckAj8YVXw&fea...

Here is my vid on said car http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1v6HBWZd2I&fea...

[freedman]

E38Ross said:

likely to win? maybe it's got an advantage of being able to work to any potential rule changes for the future right now, and not having to work to current rules (if any changes are known?)

no team has been as dominant as Audi over the period of a decade, EVER. so no reason why porsche should necessarily trump them in their 1st outing....?

I doubt Audi will run against Porsche

But even if they do, I expect Porsche to beat them. They're the most succesful Le Mans manufacturer for a reason

[E38Ross]

freedman said:

E38Ross said:

likely to win? maybe it's got an advantage of being able to work to any potential rule changes for the future right now, and not having to work to current rules (if any changes are known?)

no team has been as dominant as Audi over the period of a decade, EVER. so no reason why porsche should necessarily trump them in their 1st outing....?

I doubt Audi will run against Porsche

But even if they do, I expect Porsche to beat them. They're the most succesful Le Mans manufacturer for a reason

in fairness, times have changed a lot, and as i said, no team has been as successful as Audi over a 10 year period.