How to revitalise rallying?
Discussion
It's catch 22.
Without better TV coverage, they can't raise anywhere near the cash they need to reinvest in it through TV rights sales, which they need to in order to attract decent teams, big name drivers and so on. Without the bigger teams and a bunch of TV-friendly drivers etc, it's never going to be appealing to anything but the lower budget TV channels.
Plus, if someone came along and plonked a few hundred million into it, persuaded a bunch of manufacturers to get involved and added some of the much needed glitz, people would whinge that it's not just 20 blokes watching with a thermos of hot bovril in some middle-of-nowhere woodland.
The rules are a big problem too IMO. A big part of why nobody's watching is because it's just not that interesting anymore - amateur events are more exciting than the WRC. The modern stuff might be in the same ball park as group B, but they're dull as dishwater to watch, and people like Citroen only invest in a rally team because they see it as feasible marketing that might persuade someone to buy one of their god awful cars.
It's not happening anytime soon though. It needs so many people to put their hands in their pockets from so many different angles (TV, manufacturers, sponsors, landowners etc) that it's going to need someone very savvy, very loaded, and very shrewd to make it work. Put simply, it needs someone like a Murdoch or an Ecclestone, preferably from Finland where they get 'it'.
Without better TV coverage, they can't raise anywhere near the cash they need to reinvest in it through TV rights sales, which they need to in order to attract decent teams, big name drivers and so on. Without the bigger teams and a bunch of TV-friendly drivers etc, it's never going to be appealing to anything but the lower budget TV channels.
Plus, if someone came along and plonked a few hundred million into it, persuaded a bunch of manufacturers to get involved and added some of the much needed glitz, people would whinge that it's not just 20 blokes watching with a thermos of hot bovril in some middle-of-nowhere woodland.
The rules are a big problem too IMO. A big part of why nobody's watching is because it's just not that interesting anymore - amateur events are more exciting than the WRC. The modern stuff might be in the same ball park as group B, but they're dull as dishwater to watch, and people like Citroen only invest in a rally team because they see it as feasible marketing that might persuade someone to buy one of their god awful cars.
It's not happening anytime soon though. It needs so many people to put their hands in their pockets from so many different angles (TV, manufacturers, sponsors, landowners etc) that it's going to need someone very savvy, very loaded, and very shrewd to make it work. Put simply, it needs someone like a Murdoch or an Ecclestone, preferably from Finland where they get 'it'.
EDLT said:
Bedazzled said:
ditch the mickey-mouse super specials and tarmac stages;
No Corsica, Germany or (weather dependent) Monte Carlo?I take it nobody likes my modified soft roader idea then?
Twincam16 said:
EDLT said:
Bedazzled said:
ditch the mickey-mouse super specials and tarmac stages;
No Corsica, Germany or (weather dependent) Monte Carlo?I take it nobody likes my modified soft roader idea then?
There is the Juke, Countryman, Evoque, Yeti, X1, Q3, Kuga, Rav4 and SX4 all of which are roughly the same length and width as an Impreza STI/Evo X. Since most are based on a car platform it shouldn't be too hard to lower them enough for tarmac use (or just keep them jacked up and tell the drivers to MTFU) and most have got small turbo charged engines to choose from too.
EDLT said:
Twincam16 said:
EDLT said:
Bedazzled said:
ditch the mickey-mouse super specials and tarmac stages;
No Corsica, Germany or (weather dependent) Monte Carlo?I take it nobody likes my modified soft roader idea then?
There is the Juke, Countryman, Evoque, Yeti, X1, Q3, Kuga, Rav4 and SX4 all of which are roughly the same length and width as an Impreza STI/Evo X. Since most are based on a car platform it shouldn't be too hard to lower them enough for tarmac use (or just keep them jacked up and tell the drivers to MTFU) and most have got small turbo charged engines to choose from too.
I gave the correct answer to this question a while ago.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Nick M said:
John D. said:
There has been some talk of introducing a kind of GT category with Porsche GT3s and Aston DB9s competing with other similar NA RWD cars. Would be fantastic IMHO but there's a lack of appetite from the manufacturers I think.
Probbaly because those brands don't necessarily want to be associated with rallying - Porsche and Aston have built their brand reputations from racing, with dalliances into rallying being sideline projects born out of specific circumstances / opportunities, e.g. the Dakar Porsche 959.I didn't say it was practical idea!
Echo others comments RE Citreon being really rather irritating in not building a proper performance Xsara/C3 to celebrate all the rally success and dominance. Perhaps a sign of what is wrong with rallying? Always found it odd the Citreon and Peugeot competed against each other for a time given they are the same company. Fair play to them though!
Homogolation specials are just plain cool. Not sure its the way forward though as it pushes up costs building them all, unless the required number is very few.
Twincam16 said:
EDLT said:
Twincam16 said:
EDLT said:
Bedazzled said:
ditch the mickey-mouse super specials and tarmac stages;
No Corsica, Germany or (weather dependent) Monte Carlo?I take it nobody likes my modified soft roader idea then?
There is the Juke, Countryman, Evoque, Yeti, X1, Q3, Kuga, Rav4 and SX4 all of which are roughly the same length and width as an Impreza STI/Evo X. Since most are based on a car platform it shouldn't be too hard to lower them enough for tarmac use (or just keep them jacked up and tell the drivers to MTFU) and most have got small turbo charged engines to choose from too.
John D. said:
Homogolation specials are just plain cool. Not sure its the way forward though as it pushes up costs building them all, unless the required number is very few.
Which is why you could get around it by using a standard road car and just homologating the parts used to modify it, which would be made by someone else.Business for the motor sport companies, no outlay required for the manufacturers.
John D. said:
Homogolation specials are just plain cool. Not sure its the way forward though as it pushes up costs building them all, unless the required number is very few.
Done properly though, they could help defray the cost of your rally team by being cars people *will* buy - ask Ford (Escort and Sierra Cosworths), Subaru, Mitsubishi, all of whom made 'homologation' cars sell in sensible numbers - rather than relying on some questionable marketing BS about how TV footage translates into a %age of the sales of shopping cars in the showrooms.Nick M said:
John D. said:
Homogolation specials are just plain cool. Not sure its the way forward though as it pushes up costs building them all, unless the required number is very few.
Done properly though, they could help defray the cost of your rally team by being cars people *will* buy - ask Ford (Escort and Sierra Cosworths), Subaru, Mitsubishi, all of whom made 'homologation' cars sell in sensible numbers - rather than relying on some questionable marketing BS about how TV footage translates into a %age of the sales of shopping cars in the showrooms.IMO the most obvious rally-cars-in-waiting are the Suzuki Kizashi and the BMW 1-series. Reworked the Kizashi could give Subaru a thing or two to think about, and the 1-series could be a sort-of neo-Mk1/2 Escort.
Take a look at the variety of machinery that gets used on continental rallies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfSQ8IEt4jI&fea...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfSQ8IEt4jI&fea...
Twincam16 said:
I think the issue is, given the increased cost of motoring the market for things like Escort Cosworths, Subaru Impreza WRXs and Mitsubishi Evos is smaller than it once was. However, there are plenty of cars that could be turned into convincing rally weapons. The aforementioned car-type soft-roaders, hot hatches, maybe even the odd repmobile.
IMO the most obvious rally-cars-in-waiting are the Suzuki Kizashi and the BMW 1-series. Reworked the Kizashi could give Subaru a thing or two to think about, and the 1-series could be a sort-of neo-Mk1/2 Escort.
It's smaller, but not non-existant. What it is, however, is a neglected opportunity. While I agree the cost of motoring has knocked the appeal of powerful but very thirsty cars on the head, something a bit less extreme could work. But I think it has to be directly associated with the cars people see on TV in order for it to gain the public's interest, and I do think a manufacturer presence is important to give the series credibility - Joe Public goes to a car dealership to buy a car, not some obscure motorsport team who can sell them a replica.IMO the most obvious rally-cars-in-waiting are the Suzuki Kizashi and the BMW 1-series. Reworked the Kizashi could give Subaru a thing or two to think about, and the 1-series could be a sort-of neo-Mk1/2 Escort.
I think you have to be careful not to dilute things too far with too many possible types of car being entered, not least because the WRC is meant to be the pinnacle of rallying. Fine for national championships, not so easy to sell to TV audience who is wondering why on earth there are so many different types of car (and I don't mean makes of car) competing in the same event.
I don't wanna see FWD shopping trolleys like the British Rally Championship has turned into, but similarly I'm really not fussed about the new cars.
I really think going back to the original Group A regs (same for BTCC) would be the only way but with homologation and a lack of suitable cars in the first place it'd be a non-starter.
I really think going back to the original Group A regs (same for BTCC) would be the only way but with homologation and a lack of suitable cars in the first place it'd be a non-starter.
davepoth said:
Take a look at the variety of machinery that gets used on continental rallies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfSQ8IEt4jI&fea...
That is more to do with relatively relaxed organisers and regulators than rallying itself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfSQ8IEt4jI&fea...
F1GTRUeno said:
I don't wanna see FWD shopping trolleys like the British Rally Championship has turned into, but similarly I'm really not fussed about the new cars.
I really think going back to the original Group A regs (same for BTCC) would be the only way but with homologation and a lack of suitable cars in the first place it'd be a non-starter.
^^ People don't want to see cars that resemble the ones in the showroom, they want to see cars that have the same badge but are firebreathing wide-arched, bewinged monsters, rallying has gotten far too serene from a viewer perspective - regardless of the difference when driving them, from a TV perspective it just looks far too easy/slow.I really think going back to the original Group A regs (same for BTCC) would be the only way but with homologation and a lack of suitable cars in the first place it'd be a non-starter.
The fundamental reason for the decline of Rallying? Simple, there's no money in it anymore. The Glory days of rallying were all supported on the back of the Global Cigarette advertising bandwagon. A global product with massive profit. Now that it has dissapeared/banned we really only have two options for funding:
1) the "race it on sunday, sell it on monday" option: Unfortunately, in this era of fuel economy, CO2 pressure, and "ecowareness" (new word there;-) this approach simply doesn't sell cars. That means there is very little in it for the establish manufacturers (and they are the only ones left selling cars in any volume these days)
2) the "get enough spectators and sell them something" approach. Again, with the internet you can get many more people just with something like Facebook etc, and have a much better and wider democraphic to whom you can sell stuff. A few bobble hatters standing in a wood isn't going to interest the global multinational to part with their cash.
This leaves rallying (and actually i think most forms of Msport (with the possible exception of F1?)) with an issue in the years to come. As of 2012, i can't particularly say i'd want to earn my living in Msport any longer.........
1) the "race it on sunday, sell it on monday" option: Unfortunately, in this era of fuel economy, CO2 pressure, and "ecowareness" (new word there;-) this approach simply doesn't sell cars. That means there is very little in it for the establish manufacturers (and they are the only ones left selling cars in any volume these days)
2) the "get enough spectators and sell them something" approach. Again, with the internet you can get many more people just with something like Facebook etc, and have a much better and wider democraphic to whom you can sell stuff. A few bobble hatters standing in a wood isn't going to interest the global multinational to part with their cash.
This leaves rallying (and actually i think most forms of Msport (with the possible exception of F1?)) with an issue in the years to come. As of 2012, i can't particularly say i'd want to earn my living in Msport any longer.........
There is no money in motorsport at all - apart from F1, NASCAR and Indycar that is. The successful championship model has to change to attract the rich/sponsored drivers rather than desperately trying to appeal to manufacturers who will drop racing the second the accountants say no.
The BTCC has done this, and so has the lower end of GT racing by making it cheaper to buy/build a competitive car.
The BTCC has done this, and so has the lower end of GT racing by making it cheaper to buy/build a competitive car.
Rallying at it's highest level, was an endurance sport for both the car and crew.
More than any other aspect, It was that part of it that captured my imagination in the first place.
I started to loose interest when the world championship events moved away from the endurance format.
For a long time my life revolved around rallying. Now I no longer catch it on TV, I don't compete and I only spectate on one rally each year. The Roger Albert Clark.
So I reckon it would help if modern rallying had the same levels of endurance that the events still had right up until the mid 90s.
More than any other aspect, It was that part of it that captured my imagination in the first place.
I started to loose interest when the world championship events moved away from the endurance format.
For a long time my life revolved around rallying. Now I no longer catch it on TV, I don't compete and I only spectate on one rally each year. The Roger Albert Clark.
So I reckon it would help if modern rallying had the same levels of endurance that the events still had right up until the mid 90s.
Edited by ChrisJ. on Monday 21st May 20:31
Back in the day, I worked for an agency that did a lot of PR work for Ford Motorsport and I had the honour of working briefly with Stuart Turner, then Boss of Ford Motorsport. I recall him saying that in terms of bangs for buck, all manufacturers got a far greater return from Rallying than all other forms of motorsport combined - F1 and LeMans (this was around the time of the Ford C100) were really just corporate willy waving. The reason being that the average punter would turn on Grandstand and see a Ford Escort winning a Rally. That the car technically bore little relationship to what you got in the showroom - to the punter, it was an Escort; "Hey, I've got one of them" or "Hey, I want one of them"
I don't see that so much has changed in this respect.
It's a sport that cries out for decent TV coverage and it pains me to say it, but I see only one saviour in this respect; Sky.
I don't see that so much has changed in this respect.
It's a sport that cries out for decent TV coverage and it pains me to say it, but I see only one saviour in this respect; Sky.
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