RE: Loeb wins ninth - and last - WRC title

[DJRC]

zac510 said:

DJRC said:

It worked too well. Id have tweaked the format personally...with the 4wd cars being pegged at a lower power rating whilst the rwd only boys could explore much more power. You would have kept the cars, but cut the speeds into the corners, but kept the spectacular on the exits of corners. It was the entry and carry speeds that made Gp B ludicrous for the times, combined with woeful spectator control.

Actually this technical evaluation is pretty short-sighted.

A rally car pegged at a lower power level is exactly what the WRC cars are now.

You speculate that it would have the the speeds into the corners which may initially be the case but in time in reality when the power level is pegged then the cars can't make up time on each other along the straights. This means the only place they can be different is to maintain speed through corner entry and mid corner and in low speed corners in acceleration traction.

By regulation you've removed a variable and that in turn puts pressure on the drivers and car engineers to go faster in the areas of the car's performance that is not regulated (that is cornering, aerodynamics, tyres, etc).

Current WRC cars with their pegged power outputs are faster through corners than the Group B cars. I accept they might be slower along the straights but I'd have to check.

There was a similar engineering effect when the F1 cars moved to the highly regulated V8 engines that had less torque. However there's been the opposite effect in F1 in the last 2 year in regulation - the tyres, fuel level, DRS and KERS have introduced new variables where drivers and teams can make a difference and now the car speeds vary much more throughout the race. These details have been much underestimated by the public who focus on the tyres only.

Oh for the love of God. You just ignored 50% of the point, namely the direct competition against the rwd only boys. And yes, that means invoking the law of neccessity is the mother of all invention. Of course current cars are faster through the corners...but its done with control now...and with greater crowd safety. The 4wd systems have far greater ability than the power, so you tweak it to balance it back up better grip/control v power. Every cpl of seasons you will probably have to tweak the rules, such is life.

So no, the technical explanation wasnt short sighted, I know pretty much exactly what it would do initially, whilst thereafter Id be interested to see where it went over a season.

[400SE Dave]

PhillipM said:

Crow555 said:

Group B was banned for a reason,

Yes, crap crowd control.

What he said. In all form of Motorsports crowd control has had to improve and so it should have done in rallying. Fact remains, according to a brilliant documentary recently, that in the Group B era the WRC was bigger than F1 and since the format has been drastically watered down manufacturers have pulled out as there is no commercial benefit.

Until you get the drama back you will not get the manufacturers back and without more manufacturers you will not get big sponsors. Terminal decline, demonstrated by the declining audience.

[EDLT]

DJRC said:

EDLT said:

Except nobody would enter because a group B car would be ridiculously expensive to develop, even before it was banned they were talking about how to replace it. The replacement was going to be Group S, essentially it would be a prototype series, Lancia even built a demo car.

4WD prototype rally cars with a power restriction (don't kid yourself about people bothering to enter something RWD) actually did exist, it just took another 15 or so years for them to turn up.

Here is what we ended up with...

No they wouldnt, no more so than any other forms of vehicles. The crucial, absolutely utterly crucial difference though is one thing...they would be spectacular. People watch for the spectacle. Thats it, end of, pure and simple, all day every day. The spectacle puts bums on seats and feet in the forest. Rallying has no spectacle. It has no USP. Thats why manufacturers dont give a toss about it at the moment.

Give them the incentive back and throughout motorsports history, *every* time Manufacturers have pumped the money in. Take note of what I actually read aswell...I would have tweaked it. Not replicate it exactly. Lancia were engaged in an uber war with Pug and Ford and it was an unlimited free for all. Remove the free for all and you remove a large part of the costs.

You still won't see the lairy cars, top Pikes Peak cars have 1000hp+ and they (used to) look fairly drivable on gravel, Gronholm managed quite well with an 800hp Fiesta. There are few lairy (modern) race cars anywhere, too many advances in tyre and suspension design have put an end to that. Many rally drivers are starting to copy Loeb's minimal sliding style in an effort to go faster, making big slides into mistakes rather than part of the sport.

Unless by spectacular you meant devastating speed, which is what the previous WRC cars had by the bucketload. They really were pretty close to your idea too, I assume the bits you'd tweak would be removing the need for road going versions and limitless development to cut costs (the ONLY way you'll get manufacturers back)

Anyway, manufacturers ARE coming back. VW next year, Hyundai in the late season + 2014 and MINI having another go at a full season. They just need to sort out the UK's TV coverage.

[vtgts300kw]

People tend to conveniently forget that he won his first championship in 2004, against no name teams like 555 Subaru, Marlboro Peugeot Total and Mitsubishi Motors, and their no name drivers.

[simonpeter]

Loeb has had an amazing career. It is a shame that his success has coincided with a major down turn in the levels of competitive entries in the championship. The glory days of rallying are long gone.

[Mr_Dave]

delays said:

I agree with the previous comments about not watching or following WRC because of his dominance.

Wondering aloud here - now Red Bull have the TV rights as of next year, will we see a Red Bull sponsored WTC role, effectively "pushing him" out of WRC to level the field and allow the sport to turn a new leaf?

I, probably like many others, would love to watch WRC, but can't! It had been a staple of my motorsport viewing until it disappeared off Dave. What TV station is it on these days? ESPN still? I really have no idea, I just know that those of us that don't subscribe Sky can't watch it.

Stick it back on Freeview!

Have Sky managed to get more than 1 million viewers on the F1 show yet? Doubt it... Lets hope the F1 doesn't follow the WRC into the abyss

[johntennyson]

Does this mean Ford has a shot at (finally!) winning a rally title?

Just maybe?

[bobsan]

Seb v Plato, could be watchable

[m8rky]

bobsan said:

Seb v Plato, could be watchable

Wonder what Mr Muller is driving next year in WTCC as Chevy are pulling out.

[ArnageWRC]

johntennyson said:

Does this mean Ford has a shot at (finally!) winning a rally title?

Just maybe?

Ford always find a way to lose. Next year is probably their only chance - unless VW turn up and are competitive straight away.

[Trophybloo]

nickfrog said:

Streps said:

Still can't believe the FIA denied him a superlicence.

Yes it was mad as they allowed Raikonnen to enter WRC...

'Allowing' Raikonnen didn't come in to it - an international licence, (gained by doing the required number of nationals) and a bucket of cash and you too can join the top 20 in WRC. The fact that with top machinery KR was still unable to challenge for podiums taught the guy a few home truths. The fact that WRC crews intersct with the fans also escaped his understanding too.

[KrissJ]

m8rky said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_of_Champions

Pretty good I would say.

It does look that way. He really is an incredible driver and it'll be great to see him in a different race series. I can imagine he's excited about it too.

It's interesting to note that of the 24 Race Of Champion events that have been held, 19 of them have been won by rally drivers. Interesting and, I would say, unsurprising.

[Mini1275]

He really is superb, one of the best drivers of all time. Full stop.

It's a shame he isn't staying around for the full WRC season next year to collect his tenth title.

I'm looking forward to seeing him in the WTCC though.

[DJRC]

EDLT said:

You still won't see the lairy cars, top Pikes Peak cars have 1000hp+ and they (used to) look fairly drivable on gravel, Gronholm managed quite well with an 800hp Fiesta. There are few lairy (modern) race cars anywhere, too many advances in tyre and suspension design have put an end to that. Many rally drivers are starting to copy Loeb's minimal sliding style in an effort to go faster, making big slides into mistakes rather than part of the sport.

Unless by spectacular you meant devastating speed, which is what the previous WRC cars had by the bucketload. They really were pretty close to your idea too, I assume the bits you'd tweak would be removing the need for road going versions and limitless development to cut costs (the ONLY way you'll get manufacturers back)

Anyway, manufacturers ARE coming back. VW next year, Hyundai in the late season + 2014 and MINI having another go at a full season. They just need to sort out the UK's TV coverage.

You put 600ponies through rear wheels on gravel and you will produce interesting slip angles into the corners. Smooth, minimal sliding or not.

VW. Hyundai and a Mini countryman? Be still my beating heart.

[EDLT]

DJRC said:

EDLT said:

You still won't see the lairy cars, top Pikes Peak cars have 1000hp+ and they (used to) look fairly drivable on gravel, Gronholm managed quite well with an 800hp Fiesta. There are few lairy (modern) race cars anywhere, too many advances in tyre and suspension design have put an end to that. Many rally drivers are starting to copy Loeb's minimal sliding style in an effort to go faster, making big slides into mistakes rather than part of the sport.

Unless by spectacular you meant devastating speed, which is what the previous WRC cars had by the bucketload. They really were pretty close to your idea too, I assume the bits you'd tweak would be removing the need for road going versions and limitless development to cut costs (the ONLY way you'll get manufacturers back)

Anyway, manufacturers ARE coming back. VW next year, Hyundai in the late season + 2014 and MINI having another go at a full season. They just need to sort out the UK's TV coverage.

You put 600ponies through rear wheels on gravel and you will produce interesting slip angles into the corners. Smooth, minimal sliding or not.

VW. Hyundai and a Mini countryman? Be still my beating heart.

You also create cars that get beaten by a tatty group N Impreza.

Can you think of a way to attract such glamorous names as Peugeot, Audi, Seat, Skoda and MG? I tried Saab but they aren't returning my calls, and Lancia's number keeps getting redirected to some American bloke.

[400SE Dave]

EDLT said:

You also create cars that get beaten by a tatty group N Impreza.

Possibly true but it would create drama. What is it that everyone really loved about the mk2 escorts?? The sideways action and the screaming engines.

Edited by 400SE Dave on Tuesday 9th October 19:10

[Mastodon2]

Well done Loeb, a truly legendary driver. "Cool under pressure" does not even begin to cover it.

[D.no]

ArnageWRC said:

PascalBuyens said:

Don't forget Stefan Everts too...

Or Juha Salminen....

Both are good shouts - especially Salminen with 13 World Championships to his name. I was being patriotic and ever so slightly biased (as a fellow Yorkshire lad) by suggesting Dougie Lampkin.

[KaraK]

The lairy factor of the group B cars certainly gained the WRC a lot of spectator and manufacturer interest - it also arguably contributed to the deaths of 6 people and injured a couple of dozen more in the space of one season.

[Twincam16]

KaraK said:

The lairy factor of the group B cars certainly gained the WRC a lot of spectator and manufacturer interest - it also arguably contributed to the deaths of 6 people and injured a couple of dozen more in the space of one season.

Thing is, the spectator numbers didn't significantly decline when Group A replaced Group B. The dropoff seemed to occur when 'WRC' rules came in and the cars became silhouette things with bugger-all in common with road cars you could buy. The ballsup over the TV coverage didn't help either.