Hill Climbing/Sprinting, anyone with experience?
Discussion
SWoll said:
I will do. Shelsley Walsh Hill Climb is runnig it's season opener next weekend so hoping to get along to that with my lad and see how it all works. Curburough sprint track, which is 5 minutes from me, has regular events that are free for spectators to attend so will be getting down there also ASAP.
Hi SWollThe Shelsley event is a members day rather than an out and out Hill Climb - the first one of those is 6/7 May. However, Prescott just north of Cheltenham is on this weekend for the first round of the British and Midland Championship. I decided I wanted to do the Midland fairly early as it worked for me as it went all the places I wanted to go and gave me the right classes.
There is a mirriad of advice on here, and a lot of the answers to your questions lie in what event you want to do.
I have dropped you a PM - I am starting out on my first year of A license work in an RX8 this year as it happens! I did B license stuff in an Accord Type R last year.
I will drop you a PM.
Also - to address some comments about value for money
- It depends what you are into.
If you are all about seat time, maybe 750 MC or track days will be better. I can understand why people like track days, but they aren't wholly my thing, especially being analytical about it, and 750 MC - I simply can't afford to race as one incident and you're stuffed (and I have trust issues with other drivers!)
I agree seat time is a limiting factor for sprints and hill climbs. However, my priority was competition, I would get a bit bored driving round a track and analysing my turn ins and apexes - and just want to get in and have a good joust with my rivals (without them hitting me) - but the hills especially are dripping with history and atmosphere and the camaraderie is second to none.
That floats my boat - and so for me I think there is value. But that's not everyone's cuppa.
- It depends what you are into.
If you are all about seat time, maybe 750 MC or track days will be better. I can understand why people like track days, but they aren't wholly my thing, especially being analytical about it, and 750 MC - I simply can't afford to race as one incident and you're stuffed (and I have trust issues with other drivers!)
I agree seat time is a limiting factor for sprints and hill climbs. However, my priority was competition, I would get a bit bored driving round a track and analysing my turn ins and apexes - and just want to get in and have a good joust with my rivals (without them hitting me) - but the hills especially are dripping with history and atmosphere and the camaraderie is second to none.
That floats my boat - and so for me I think there is value. But that's not everyone's cuppa.
SWoll said:
I notice the 750Mc also run a 330i championship? It looks like I've gone full circle in this thread so far..
I looked at that and decided not to do it; heavy car with not much power may be good for single make but would be uncompetative anywhere else. The M3 Cup looks much better as they win Roadsports, Club Enduro and would be ok in CSCC NM etc. SWoll said:
EDIT - Just watching the video. 1:30 looked interesting? 
That corner is only just flat if you have the whole track to yourself so turning in along side someone was risky. I gambled on two things, one the guy bottleing it (which he did) and two, turning in really agressively, getting the car sideways and allowing the car to slow down around the apex (sideways is the slowways afterall). You can get away with it in the Clio as they have so much rear grip compared to the front. This isn't someting you can change given the very limited constraints there is on suspension and setup in the Clio 182 Championsip. Finally, there is so much run off at Silverstone you have to really try hard to hit a wall on the outside of a corner and I knew there was nice concrete on the exit to live for another corner. SWoll said:
Decent bit of driving there, especially corner entry speeds 
If I may suggest though, try learning to heel and toe on the down changes, not only will it be kinder on your G-box but you will stop quicker with more stability = faster lap times 
Agreed. I am simpathetic on down changes when releasing the clutch but need to properly H&T. Up shifts get ramed in wether the box is ready or not at the start or when defending/attacking. No simpathy then! If I may suggest though, try learning to heel and toe on the down changes, not only will it be kinder on your G-box but you will stop quicker with more stability = faster lap times df76 said:
If you can't afford racing (which I can't!), then a combo of a few speed events (I don't bother with a championship) for fun and some track days is quite a good compromise. Competing at speed events can be done with zero additional car costs, and I find it a fun day out. That said, I'm choosy on where I compete. Not sure I'd do an airfield event again..
I am in the same position. I do not have the funds to go circuit racing so track days , autosolos and sprints for me. I drive an mx5 which cost me £850 to buy and in the last 3 years I have spent about £2k on "upgrading" though most bang for buck came from instruction. To insure and tax the car is about £400 per year. 3 x trackdays, 4 x sprints and 4 x autosolos is about £800 for the year. If you go sprinting you need to get the suit/helmet/boots/gloves which I got for £500 from the autosport show. and licence (£40 per year) So ignoring the initial capital spend my annual fun costs me
1 x set of tyres = £200
1 x set of pads = £120
entry fees = £800
licence = £40
tax and insurance = £400
miscellaneous ~(fuel , food on teh day etc) = £300
total = £1860
i do about 2-3000 miles a year in the car as well which is a mk1 mx5, stock power, upgraded suspension , bucket seats, harnesses and a roll bar.
You could do a season of MX5 racing for not much more.
http://www.5clubracing.co.uk/mx5-cup-championship/
http://www.5clubracing.co.uk/mx5-cup-championship/
Thurbs said:
You could do a season of MX5 racing for not much more.
http://www.5clubracing.co.uk/mx5-cup-championship/
I don't think you can really compare.. the cost of using a cheap road going comp car for a few clubman events is (in reality) going to be massively different from a season of a single make series that trots around the country.http://www.5clubracing.co.uk/mx5-cup-championship/
I use my road car (£0 extra cost) vs a MX5 race car (£4k plus).
No trailer vs £1000 trailer (plus insurance and servicing)
My club membership and champ fees are a total of £30, I suspect that it's more for the 750MC and MX5 registration.
Entry fees are £75-£100, expect MX5 entries to be £300 plus.
It goes on..
There's some massive differences. When you work out the real race costs it's a minimum of £600 per weekend and that's really pushing it. A friend races in Combe saloons, drives it to the events and lives locally. That's about the cheapest way of doing it (new Combe Hot Hatch series has entry fees of £195). Sharing a car, such as in 750MC Roadsports is the next best was of managing the costs.
df76 said:
I don't think you can really compare.. the cost of using a cheap road going comp car for a few clubman events is (in reality) going to be massively different from a season of a single make series that trots around the country.
I use my road car (£0 extra cost) vs a MX5 race car (£4k plus).
No trailer vs £1000 trailer (plus insurance and servicing)
My club membership and champ fees are a total of £30, I suspect that it's more for the 750MC and MX5 registration.
Entry fees are £75-£100, expect MX5 entries to be £300 plus.
It goes on..
There's some massive differences. When you work out the real race costs it's a minimum of £600 per weekend and that's really pushing it. A friend races in Combe saloons, drives it to the events and lives locally. That's about the cheapest way of doing it (new Combe Hot Hatch series has entry fees of £195). Sharing a car, such as in 750MC Roadsports is the next best was of managing the costs.
Whilst I know what you mean the cost of keeping a car in a road going state is in many cases a significant expense (£500-1000 a year in tax, insurance, MOT etc.) and also limits the modifications that can be made.I use my road car (£0 extra cost) vs a MX5 race car (£4k plus).
No trailer vs £1000 trailer (plus insurance and servicing)
My club membership and champ fees are a total of £30, I suspect that it's more for the 750MC and MX5 registration.
Entry fees are £75-£100, expect MX5 entries to be £300 plus.
It goes on..
There's some massive differences. When you work out the real race costs it's a minimum of £600 per weekend and that's really pushing it. A friend races in Combe saloons, drives it to the events and lives locally. That's about the cheapest way of doing it (new Combe Hot Hatch series has entry fees of £195). Sharing a car, such as in 750MC Roadsports is the next best was of managing the costs.
Our plan now, after much discussion and research, is to do the following.
2017
Buy car (RX8 still favourite)
Keep road legal for 6 months whilst building to trackday spec (suspension, brakes, tyres etc.)
Do a few track days and get plenty of tuition
Do a sprint/HC or two later in the year
2018
Take NAT B racing license.
Take car off the road and strip interior.
Purchase non running donor vehicle for bits in case of race damage.
Fit roll cage, racing seat, harness and other safety requirements.
More trackdays and tuition
Enter a couple of rounds of 750MC Roadsports in Class D and/or any other series we are eligible for.
2019
Further improvements to the car (performance)
Full season in Roadsports Class D or C dependent on bhp/tonne, possible Enduro series entry if car and drivers up to it.
Currently on the look out for the right car to use as the basis and have a list of all of the best mods/priority jobs after receiving a lot of very heloful advice from Liam Crilly who currently runs an RX8 in Roadsports/Enduro.
Just to update, I did the members day at shelsley Walsh last Friday. It was epic fun! I went with a view of seeing if I enjoy it, if so then change the rollbar to be MSA compliant and maybe doing an event or 2 later in the year.
The main concern was seat time, I had 5 runs during the day which I guess is fairly typical of an actual competition day and to be honest, it was enough. After a couple of steady runs to learn which way it goes I got the hammer down a bit. I really enjoyed to fact I had to be absolutely "on it" from the offset. Cold T1R tyres, were umm.....interesting in a very light RWD car. I did however do a sub 38 second run with a fairly wild moment exiting the esses, which I'm told is pretty quick in the class my car is eligible for.
A nice relaxed atmosphere and nice people.
I can highly recommend you give it a go. I do understand it's not for everyone but I thoroughly enjoyed it! I just need someone to make me a compliant rollbar for sensible money!
The main concern was seat time, I had 5 runs during the day which I guess is fairly typical of an actual competition day and to be honest, it was enough. After a couple of steady runs to learn which way it goes I got the hammer down a bit. I really enjoyed to fact I had to be absolutely "on it" from the offset. Cold T1R tyres, were umm.....interesting in a very light RWD car. I did however do a sub 38 second run with a fairly wild moment exiting the esses, which I'm told is pretty quick in the class my car is eligible for.
A nice relaxed atmosphere and nice people.
I can highly recommend you give it a go. I do understand it's not for everyone but I thoroughly enjoyed it! I just need someone to make me a compliant rollbar for sensible money!
AdamIndy said:
Just to update, I did the members day at shelsley Walsh last Friday. It was epic fun! I went with a view of seeing if I enjoy it, if so then change the rollbar to be MSA compliant and maybe doing an event or 2 later in the year.
The main concern was seat time, I had 5 runs during the day which I guess is fairly typical of an actual competition day and to be honest, it was enough. After a couple of steady runs to learn which way it goes I got the hammer down a bit. I really enjoyed to fact I had to be absolutely "on it" from the offset. Cold T1R tyres, were umm.....interesting in a very light RWD car. I did however do a sub 38 second run with a fairly wild moment exiting the esses, which I'm told is pretty quick in the class my car is eligible for.
A nice relaxed atmosphere and nice people.
I can highly recommend you give it a go. I do understand it's not for everyone but I thoroughly enjoyed it! I just need someone to make me a compliant rollbar for sensible money!
Nice write up, and glad you enjoyed it. Good luck with changing the roll bar, hope that works out and you manage a few events this year. And a fine excuse to upgrade the T1R tyres (shudder)! The main concern was seat time, I had 5 runs during the day which I guess is fairly typical of an actual competition day and to be honest, it was enough. After a couple of steady runs to learn which way it goes I got the hammer down a bit. I really enjoyed to fact I had to be absolutely "on it" from the offset. Cold T1R tyres, were umm.....interesting in a very light RWD car. I did however do a sub 38 second run with a fairly wild moment exiting the esses, which I'm told is pretty quick in the class my car is eligible for.
A nice relaxed atmosphere and nice people.
I can highly recommend you give it a go. I do understand it's not for everyone but I thoroughly enjoyed it! I just need someone to make me a compliant rollbar for sensible money!
SWoll said:
Whilst I know what you mean the cost of keeping a car in a road going state is in many cases a significant expense (£500-1000 a year in tax, insurance, MOT etc.) and also limits the modifications that can be made.
Our plan now, after much discussion and research, is to do the following.
2017
Buy car (RX8 still favourite)
Keep road legal for 6 months whilst building to trackday spec (suspension, brakes, tyres etc.)
Do a few track days and get plenty of tuition
Do a sprint/HC or two later in the year
2018
Take NAT B racing license.
Take car off the road and strip interior.
Purchase non running donor vehicle for bits in case of race damage.
Fit roll cage, racing seat, harness and other safety requirements.
More trackdays and tuition
Enter a couple of rounds of 750MC Roadsports in Class D and/or any other series we are eligible for.
2019
Further improvements to the car (performance)
Full season in Roadsports Class D or C dependent on bhp/tonne, possible Enduro series entry if car and drivers up to it.
Currently on the look out for the right car to use as the basis and have a list of all of the best mods/priority jobs after receiving a lot of very heloful advice from Liam Crilly who currently runs an RX8 in Roadsports/Enduro.
If you can find something with the bulk of the expensive work done, it would be a good plan. Was looking at a similar option, but with a civic ep3. Find a roadgoing one with lsd, coilovers and cage. Not too far away from a race car. Would be good fun developing it as you go.. you'll need to do a "build" thread!Our plan now, after much discussion and research, is to do the following.
2017
Buy car (RX8 still favourite)
Keep road legal for 6 months whilst building to trackday spec (suspension, brakes, tyres etc.)
Do a few track days and get plenty of tuition
Do a sprint/HC or two later in the year
2018
Take NAT B racing license.
Take car off the road and strip interior.
Purchase non running donor vehicle for bits in case of race damage.
Fit roll cage, racing seat, harness and other safety requirements.
More trackdays and tuition
Enter a couple of rounds of 750MC Roadsports in Class D and/or any other series we are eligible for.
2019
Further improvements to the car (performance)
Full season in Roadsports Class D or C dependent on bhp/tonne, possible Enduro series entry if car and drivers up to it.
Currently on the look out for the right car to use as the basis and have a list of all of the best mods/priority jobs after receiving a lot of very heloful advice from Liam Crilly who currently runs an RX8 in Roadsports/Enduro.
df76 said:
If you can find something with the bulk of the expensive work done, it would be a good plan. Was looking at a similar option, but with a civic ep3. Find a roadgoing one with lsd, coilovers and cage. Not too far away from a race car. Would be good fun developing it as you go.. you'll need to do a "build" thread!
The bonus with RX8's is they are so unloved as a road car nowadays due to engine compression issues and high running costs that a good cars are available for peanuts in comparison to something like the CTR EP3, E36 328i, 182 which would all cost considerably more for a car of the same quality. There are also lots being broken for parts due to engine fallure so gearboxes/diffs/calipers/body panels etc.are ridiculous prices and they are relatively easy to work on as the wankel engine itself is a simple concept and the suicide doors make interior access a breeze.Been through a budget and to buy a decent example and get it ready for the track, so 2 way adjust suspension, brake overhaul etc you are looking at £3-4k (I can do the work myself as have plenty of space and access to tools/skills as required)
To then race prepare would be an additional £2-3k of cage, seat and safety equipment to meet the regulations so overall a £6-7k budget, which I think is pretty reasonable, especially when shared between 2 drivers over a 1-2 year timescale.
Got our eyes on a few cars at the moment and not in any huge rush so taking my time to understand the pitfalls of the model and make as sure as possible we get a good one. Will definitely start a build thread both here and on the UK RX8ownersclub once the choice is made..
AdamIndy said:
Just to update, I did the members day at shelsley Walsh last Friday. It was epic fun! I went with a view of seeing if I enjoy it, if so then change the rollbar to be MSA compliant and maybe doing an event or 2 later in the year.
The main concern was seat time, I had 5 runs during the day which I guess is fairly typical of an actual competition day and to be honest, it was enough. After a couple of steady runs to learn which way it goes I got the hammer down a bit. I really enjoyed to fact I had to be absolutely "on it" from the offset. Cold T1R tyres, were umm.....interesting in a very light RWD car. I did however do a sub 38 second run with a fairly wild moment exiting the esses, which I'm told is pretty quick in the class my car is eligible for.
A nice relaxed atmosphere and nice people.
I can highly recommend you give it a go. I do understand it's not for everyone but I thoroughly enjoyed it! I just need someone to make me a compliant rollbar for sensible money!
Glad to hear you enjoyed it Andy, although I think your car is far more suited to the tight and twisty, point and squirt nature of HC than mine will likely be. The main concern was seat time, I had 5 runs during the day which I guess is fairly typical of an actual competition day and to be honest, it was enough. After a couple of steady runs to learn which way it goes I got the hammer down a bit. I really enjoyed to fact I had to be absolutely "on it" from the offset. Cold T1R tyres, were umm.....interesting in a very light RWD car. I did however do a sub 38 second run with a fairly wild moment exiting the esses, which I'm told is pretty quick in the class my car is eligible for.
A nice relaxed atmosphere and nice people.
I can highly recommend you give it a go. I do understand it's not for everyone but I thoroughly enjoyed it! I just need someone to make me a compliant rollbar for sensible money!
If I can get the car bought and ready for later on in the summer I'm still tempted to come along and have a go though. Should be a lot of fun.
SWoll said:
The bonus with RX8's is they are so unloved as a road car nowadays due to engine compression issues and high running costs that a good cars are available for peanuts in comparison to something like the CTR EP3, E36 328i, 182 which would all cost considerably more for a car of the same quality. There are also lots being broken for parts due to engine fallure so gearboxes/diffs/calipers/body panels etc.are ridiculous prices and they are relatively easy to work on as the wankel engine itself is a simple concept and the suicide doors make interior access a breeze.
A way to go might be to buy a cheap one and have the engine rebuilt. At least then you're sure it's good.carl_w said:
SWoll said:
The bonus with RX8's is they are so unloved as a road car nowadays due to engine compression issues and high running costs that a good cars are available for peanuts in comparison to something like the CTR EP3, E36 328i, 182 which would all cost considerably more for a car of the same quality. There are also lots being broken for parts due to engine fallure so gearboxes/diffs/calipers/body panels etc.are ridiculous prices and they are relatively easy to work on as the wankel engine itself is a simple concept and the suicide doors make interior access a breeze.
A way to go might be to buy a cheap one and have the engine rebuilt. At least then you're sure it's good.I'm not even keen on a car that's already been done as not sure I'd trust a rebuild I've not been involved myself and would still want a compression test completed before buying as cars with rebuilds tend to command top prices.
The other issue is that most engine warranties don't cover track or race use so would be pretty much useless to me anyway.
My preference is towards a well maintained car with regular oil/plug changes and a decent compression test result. I can then drive it before buying to check the clutch/gearbox/suspension and any other number of things are in decent shape, which wouldn't be possible with a non runner of course..
SWoll said:
Yes, been looking at this as a possibility but a lot of the non runners look to be in a bit of a state all round so difficult finding a good one. Also, it's possible that the issue could be with the bearings/E-shaft etc. rather than just the seals so rebuild costs can quickly ramp up to £2k + making it poor value.
As you say, if it's in a bit of a state all round then it's a no-go. But I've seen them for sale for £500-£1000. £2000 rebuild and you've got something solid for £3k. It was after seeing Salesy's car that I started investigating this. Can't remember how much he paid for it but it's very tidy. I came ever so close to pulling the trigger on one but ended up sticking with the Saxo and modifying it for this year.
carl_w said:
SWoll said:
Yes, been looking at this as a possibility but a lot of the non runners look to be in a bit of a state all round so difficult finding a good one. Also, it's possible that the issue could be with the bearings/E-shaft etc. rather than just the seals so rebuild costs can quickly ramp up to £2k + making it poor value.
As you say, if it's in a bit of a state all round then it's a no-go. But I've seen them for sale for £500-£1000. £2000 rebuild and you've got something solid for £3k. It was after seeing Salesy's car that I started investigating this. Came ever so close to pulling the trigger but ended up sticking with the Saxo and modifying it for this year.
TBH, the man logic has taken over and really interested in a PZ model that is being sold locally for around £2K. Not had a rebuild but everything about it looks and sounds good and the addition of lightweight OZ wheels,Bilstein/Eibach suspension and a Prodrive exhaust are appealing both from a performance and cost standpoint.
SWoll said:
carl_w said:
SWoll said:
Yes, been looking at this as a possibility but a lot of the non runners look to be in a bit of a state all round so difficult finding a good one. Also, it's possible that the issue could be with the bearings/E-shaft etc. rather than just the seals so rebuild costs can quickly ramp up to £2k + making it poor value.
As you say, if it's in a bit of a state all round then it's a no-go. But I've seen them for sale for £500-£1000. £2000 rebuild and you've got something solid for £3k. It was after seeing Salesy's car that I started investigating this. Came ever so close to pulling the trigger but ended up sticking with the Saxo and modifying it for this year.
TBH, the man logic has taken over and really interested in a PZ model that is being sold locally for around £2K. Not had a rebuild but everything about it looks and sounds good and the addition of lightweight OZ wheels,Bilstein/Eibach suspension and a Prodrive exhaust are appealing both from a performance and cost standpoint.
After sprinting this weekend in the Clio i am now contemplating selling my PZ. My head says do i really need it but my heart says i should keep it.
Salesy said:
The PZ is the one to go for, in class A2 it is pretty much unbeatable and can even mix it up with the boys running list 1B tyres in class A4 even though its on list 1A's.
After sprinting this weekend in the Clio i am now contemplating selling my PZ. My head says do i really need it but my heart says i should keep it.
Out of interest Paul, what mods have you done on yours or are you still running with the standard PZ suspension? After sprinting this weekend in the Clio i am now contemplating selling my PZ. My head says do i really need it but my heart says i should keep it.
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