Hill Climbing/Sprinting, anyone with experience?
Discussion
I've spent some time today looking at the HSA website and TBH I'm more confused now than when I started.
There are a huge amount of different championships, all of which seem to have different entry requirements, some of them merging a number of classes into one and the amount of track time you get with some seems far greater than with others for a similar outlay?
Is it possible to just get the right license, join a local club and then picks and choose which events to enter all over the country based on the amount of likely track time or are you restricted by the the club you join, a specific championship and where you are based geographically?
As someone has mentioned above, with some of the events you seem to be only getting 2-3 minutes on track for a £100-150 outlay which from where I am sitting seems very restrictive indeed, especially when you are also forced to keep the car taxed, mot'd and insured for the road to comply with regulations at a substantial yearly cost when it's use as a road car will be severely limited.
Starting to look like a track day car with the occasional sprint/HC experience in whatever class they choose to throw it into might be a better option for bang per buck.
There are a huge amount of different championships, all of which seem to have different entry requirements, some of them merging a number of classes into one and the amount of track time you get with some seems far greater than with others for a similar outlay?
Is it possible to just get the right license, join a local club and then picks and choose which events to enter all over the country based on the amount of likely track time or are you restricted by the the club you join, a specific championship and where you are based geographically?
As someone has mentioned above, with some of the events you seem to be only getting 2-3 minutes on track for a £100-150 outlay which from where I am sitting seems very restrictive indeed, especially when you are also forced to keep the car taxed, mot'd and insured for the road to comply with regulations at a substantial yearly cost when it's use as a road car will be severely limited.
Starting to look like a track day car with the occasional sprint/HC experience in whatever class they choose to throw it into might be a better option for bang per buck.
SWoll said:
Is it possible to just get the right license, join a local club and then picks and choose which events to enter all over the country based on the amount of likely track time or are you restricted by the the club you join, a specific championship and where you are based geographically?
As someone has mentioned above, with some of the events you seem to be only getting 2-3 minutes on track for a £100-150 outlay which from where I am sitting seems very restrictive indeed, especially when you are also forced to keep the car taxed, mot'd and insured for the road to comply with regulations at a substantial yearly cost when it's use as a road car will be severely limited.
Starting to look like a track day car with the occasional sprint/HC experience in whatever class they choose to throw it into might be a better option for bang per buck.
In answer to the first part, yes. My club is affiliated to three area associations: AEMC, ASEMC and ACSMC -- between them they get invited to most events in the south of England plus some others.As someone has mentioned above, with some of the events you seem to be only getting 2-3 minutes on track for a £100-150 outlay which from where I am sitting seems very restrictive indeed, especially when you are also forced to keep the car taxed, mot'd and insured for the road to comply with regulations at a substantial yearly cost when it's use as a road car will be severely limited.
Starting to look like a track day car with the occasional sprint/HC experience in whatever class they choose to throw it into might be a better option for bang per buck.
Thinking of it as "seat time" is the wrong approach. After all, the goal of all motorsport is to minimize the amount of time spent in the car. Since I started sprinting trackdays do nothing for me as there is no competitive element. Look at circuit racing if you like but the costs are an order of magnitude above trackdays for less seat time.
I started sprinting as I nearly had a massive accident at Castle Combe on a trackday years ago. Some t
t came across the grass at Tower and I still don't know to this day how we missed each other.
I still do the occasional TD but only with a club who I know so the guys there are sensible.
I enjoy the competition and the banter much more, the actual seat time is all relative, maybe a bit of both is a good compromise.
t came across the grass at Tower and I still don't know to this day how we missed each other.I still do the occasional TD but only with a club who I know so the guys there are sensible.
I enjoy the competition and the banter much more, the actual seat time is all relative, maybe a bit of both is a good compromise.
Edited by D_G on Monday 17th April 22:47
Thurbs said:
I get "good value" from £385 for 30m Q + 40m race... + testing the day before + tyres + fuel + traveling + + + +
Good value and motorsport are not great bedfellows.
As with cycling, it never gets easier (or cheaper), you just go faster.
i know that;s always the case but In comparison for pure track time what you are doing is far better value. In one weekend you're seeing as much track time as a couple of seasons in sprinting as far as I can work out which would cost thousands in entry fee's, road going costs and travel. Sprinting/HC does seem to be a an expensive spectator day with a bit of driving thrown in?Good value and motorsport are not great bedfellows.
As with cycling, it never gets easier (or cheaper), you just go faster.
The only thing that puts me off circuit racing is the cost of and work involved in resolving regular shunts with other competitors?
SWoll said:
i know that;s always the case but In comparison for pure track time what you are doing is far better value. In one weekend you're seeing as much track time as a couple of seasons in sprinting as far as I can work out which would cost thousands in entry fee's, road going costs and travel. Sprinting/HC does seem to be a an expensive spectator day with a bit of driving thrown in?
The only thing that puts me off circuit racing is the cost of and work involved in resolving regular shunts with other competitors?
If you can't afford racing (which I can't!), then a combo of a few speed events (I don't bother with a championship) for fun and some track days is quite a good compromise. Competing at speed events can be done with zero additional car costs, and I find it a fun day out. That said, I'm choosy on where I compete. Not sure I'd do an airfield event again..The only thing that puts me off circuit racing is the cost of and work involved in resolving regular shunts with other competitors?
I also find track days a bit dull. Yep, in terms of seat time sprints/hills are poor value for money but I find the overall experience far more exciting.
Anyone can be quick given time to get upto speed (i.e. after 50 laps at a track day) but knowing you have to be quick from the outset at a sprint/hill adds a completely different dimension.
I'm doing a hillclimb this weekend at Wiscombe. I've never been there before. It looks a fairly tricky venue. I'm properly excited about it, four days beforehand. I've never been like that about a trackday (or anything really).
Anyone can be quick given time to get upto speed (i.e. after 50 laps at a track day) but knowing you have to be quick from the outset at a sprint/hill adds a completely different dimension.
I'm doing a hillclimb this weekend at Wiscombe. I've never been there before. It looks a fairly tricky venue. I'm properly excited about it, four days beforehand. I've never been like that about a trackday (or anything really).
It is interesting the comments about track days being boring.
I have never found this, but have always had a purpose...
- bed in tyres / brakes / engine
- change camber, tow setups
- find and adjust pressures
- try every corner with early entry, late apex
- try every corner with late entry, early apex
- try neutral entry, apex & exit
- try holding a gear
- try changing up and down
- simulate qualifying
- simulate a race
- and so on...
Nice 5 lap stints with a de-brief afterwards. Then lots of data & video analysis to refine and try again.
The thought of turning up to a sprint or climb having not done any of this would send shivers down my spine... how on earth can one be close to the limit with no previous knowledge of the track other than a walk up it the night before? A very different discipline and I can see how circuits would be boring in comparison.
Sure, you can just rock up and race on circuits (especially if you have driven there before) but you won’t be as fast as you could be, or at the front in any competitive field.
Finally, OP you seem keen on RWD. I wouldn’t be, especially on unfamiliar tracks. Get it wrong with a FWD and you can save the car from crazy angles where as RWD you are in the wall before you know it. With 200bhp you are not going to get any real benefit other than bragging rights down the pub. I would go with a Clio 182 that someone has already done the work to and spent the money.
I have never found this, but have always had a purpose...
- bed in tyres / brakes / engine
- change camber, tow setups
- find and adjust pressures
- try every corner with early entry, late apex
- try every corner with late entry, early apex
- try neutral entry, apex & exit
- try holding a gear
- try changing up and down
- simulate qualifying
- simulate a race
- and so on...
Nice 5 lap stints with a de-brief afterwards. Then lots of data & video analysis to refine and try again.
The thought of turning up to a sprint or climb having not done any of this would send shivers down my spine... how on earth can one be close to the limit with no previous knowledge of the track other than a walk up it the night before? A very different discipline and I can see how circuits would be boring in comparison.
Sure, you can just rock up and race on circuits (especially if you have driven there before) but you won’t be as fast as you could be, or at the front in any competitive field.
Finally, OP you seem keen on RWD. I wouldn’t be, especially on unfamiliar tracks. Get it wrong with a FWD and you can save the car from crazy angles where as RWD you are in the wall before you know it. With 200bhp you are not going to get any real benefit other than bragging rights down the pub. I would go with a Clio 182 that someone has already done the work to and spent the money.
Galveston said:
I also find track days a bit dull. Yep, in terms of seat time sprints/hills are poor value for money but I find the overall experience far more exciting.
Anyone can be quick given time to get upto speed (i.e. after 50 laps at a track day) but knowing you have to be quick from the outset at a sprint/hill adds a completely different dimension.
I'm doing a hillclimb this weekend at Wiscombe. I've never been there before. It looks a fairly tricky venue. I'm properly excited about it, four days beforehand. I've never been like that about a trackday (or anything really).
Wiscombe is a wonderful venue, just make sure you get plenty of time to walk the hill. Anyone can be quick given time to get upto speed (i.e. after 50 laps at a track day) but knowing you have to be quick from the outset at a sprint/hill adds a completely different dimension.
I'm doing a hillclimb this weekend at Wiscombe. I've never been there before. It looks a fairly tricky venue. I'm properly excited about it, four days beforehand. I've never been like that about a trackday (or anything really).
There is something about driving flat out up a hill with little idea of how much grip is available etc, trees lining the track waiting for you to get it wrong! Certainly gets the adrenaline flowing anyway
df76 said:
If you can't afford racing (which I can't!), then a combo of a few speed events (I don't bother with a championship) for fun and some track days is quite a good compromise. Competing at speed events can be done with zero additional car costs, and I find it a fun day out. That said, I'm choosy on where I compete. Not sure I'd do an airfield event again..
As someone with very little track experience and no racing whatsoever I'm thinking of approaching it in exactly that way. Having spent some time looking through the various championships run by the 750MC and the kind of cost involved it's definitely something to build towards over a couple of years whilst gaining track on experience and attaining a NAT B license.
The 750MC Roadsport class looks particularly interesting with modifications being very open and cars classified by BHP/Ton rather than engine capacity.
LordHaveMurci said:
Galveston said:
I also find track days a bit dull. Yep, in terms of seat time sprints/hills are poor value for money but I find the overall experience far more exciting.
Anyone can be quick given time to get upto speed (i.e. after 50 laps at a track day) but knowing you have to be quick from the outset at a sprint/hill adds a completely different dimension.
I'm doing a hillclimb this weekend at Wiscombe. I've never been there before. It looks a fairly tricky venue. I'm properly excited about it, four days beforehand. I've never been like that about a trackday (or anything really).
Wiscombe is a wonderful venue, just make sure you get plenty of time to walk the hill. Anyone can be quick given time to get upto speed (i.e. after 50 laps at a track day) but knowing you have to be quick from the outset at a sprint/hill adds a completely different dimension.
I'm doing a hillclimb this weekend at Wiscombe. I've never been there before. It looks a fairly tricky venue. I'm properly excited about it, four days beforehand. I've never been like that about a trackday (or anything really).
There is something about driving flat out up a hill with little idea of how much grip is available etc, trees lining the track waiting for you to get it wrong! Certainly gets the adrenaline flowing anyway
Thurbs said:
It is interesting the comments about track days being boring.
I have never found this, but have always had a purpose...
- bed in tyres / brakes / engine
- change camber, tow setups
- find and adjust pressures
- try every corner with early entry, late apex
- try every corner with late entry, early apex
- try neutral entry, apex & exit
- try holding a gear
- try changing up and down
- simulate qualifying
- simulate a race
- and so on...
Nice 5 lap stints with a de-brief afterwards. Then lots of data & video analysis to refine and try again.
The thought of turning up to a sprint or climb having not done any of this would send shivers down my spine... how on earth can one be close to the limit with no previous knowledge of the track other than a walk up it the night before? A very different discipline and I can see how circuits would be boring in comparison.
Sure, you can just rock up and race on circuits (especially if you have driven there before) but you won’t be as fast as you could be, or at the front in any competitive field.
Totally agree with all of the above and to approach each outing as an opportunity to improve the car and standard of driving is exactly what I'll be looking to do. I have never found this, but have always had a purpose...
- bed in tyres / brakes / engine
- change camber, tow setups
- find and adjust pressures
- try every corner with early entry, late apex
- try every corner with late entry, early apex
- try neutral entry, apex & exit
- try holding a gear
- try changing up and down
- simulate qualifying
- simulate a race
- and so on...
Nice 5 lap stints with a de-brief afterwards. Then lots of data & video analysis to refine and try again.
The thought of turning up to a sprint or climb having not done any of this would send shivers down my spine... how on earth can one be close to the limit with no previous knowledge of the track other than a walk up it the night before? A very different discipline and I can see how circuits would be boring in comparison.
Sure, you can just rock up and race on circuits (especially if you have driven there before) but you won’t be as fast as you could be, or at the front in any competitive field.
Thurbs said:
Finally, OP you seem keen on RWD. I wouldn’t be, especially on unfamiliar tracks. Get it wrong with a FWD and you can save the car from crazy angles where as RWD you are in the wall before you know it. With 200bhp you are not going to get any real benefit other than bragging rights down the pub. I would go with a Clio 182 that someone has already done the work to and spent the money.
It's all about building up speed rather than diving in two footed though I suppose. I've never been one for FWD despite having driven what have supposedly been great examples of the layout (205 GTI, Focus RS, Clio 172) as the whole wheel in the air, scrabbling for traction,lift off oversteer and wrestling torque steering challenge isn't my idea of fun.The job of building up, testing and refining the car is a big part of the appeal to me and although it will work out more expensive is not something I'd want to avoid just so I can get on track quicker.
Edited by SWoll on Tuesday 18th April 13:03
df76 said:
SWoll said:
The 750MC Roadsport class looks particularly interesting with modifications being very open and cars classified by BHP/Ton rather than engine capacity.
There is a chance that I'll race next year, and this is one the favourite options. Sharing a car. Looks good.SWoll said:
It's all about building up speed rather than diving in two footed though I suppose. I've never been one for FWD despite having driven what have supposedly been great examples of the layout (205 GTI, Focus RS, Clio 172) as the whole wheel in the air, scrabbling for traction,lift off oversteer and wrestling torque steering challenge isn't my idea of fun.
If you drive a well sorted one with a proper set up and good tyres you will get none of this. Likewise I see many rwd cars (M3s etc) understear like cross channel ferrys.Here is a race where an RX8 beat me in a Clio...
https://youtu.be/ICQ2DkAOyJ4?list=PLmsJCCDm9ELbUeH...
Not helping my argument here am I?
Thurbs said:
SWoll said:
It's all about building up speed rather than diving in two footed though I suppose. I've never been one for FWD despite having driven what have supposedly been great examples of the layout (205 GTI, Focus RS, Clio 172) as the whole wheel in the air, scrabbling for traction,lift off oversteer and wrestling torque steering challenge isn't my idea of fun.
If you drive a well sorted one with a proper set up and good tyres you will get none of this. Likewise I see many rwd cars (M3s etc) understear like cross channel ferrys.Here is a race where an RX8 beat me in a Clio...
https://youtu.be/ICQ2DkAOyJ4?list=PLmsJCCDm9ELbUeH...
Not helping my argument here am I?
Need to look at the RX-8 closely as the very poor MPG on track (<10) and issues with engine/oil temperatures due to the nature of the rotary design might prove problematic over a 45 minute race without significant and costly modifications.
I notice the 750Mc also run a 330i championship? It looks like I've gone full circle in this thread so far..
EDIT - Just watching the video. 1:30 looked interesting?
EDIT2 - That yellow BMW Compact.. What an absolute t
t. Any action taken by the stewards etc. after the race?Edited by SWoll on Tuesday 18th April 21:58
Edited by SWoll on Tuesday 18th April 22:48
Swoll as a bit of a left field suggestion have you thought about Targa Rallying?.
Advantages compared to hill climbing or sprinting;
No helmets, no race suit, no gloves.
Much more seat time for less entry fee, typically £100.00 or less and probably 15 to 30 minutes, or more at certain venues.
Multi venue events on different surfaces.
Gravel, broken concrete, smooth Tar, mud...... cow st...
Plenty of lairy oversteering
Some events don't even need a Nat B
Disadvantages,
You need a navigator
Cars are more limited (no turbo usually)
More risk of damage to cars, not from crashes but from hard driving on rough surfaces
I'd suggest the driving is less technical, you aren't chasing split seconds, but equally you aren't going to be tempted to spend Megga bucks to save a second either. Good times are gained by shear commitment and skill, not by that slight edge in equipment.
Advantages compared to hill climbing or sprinting;
No helmets, no race suit, no gloves.
Much more seat time for less entry fee, typically £100.00 or less and probably 15 to 30 minutes, or more at certain venues.
Multi venue events on different surfaces.
Gravel, broken concrete, smooth Tar, mud...... cow s
t...Plenty of lairy oversteering
Some events don't even need a Nat B
Disadvantages,
You need a navigator
Cars are more limited (no turbo usually)
More risk of damage to cars, not from crashes but from hard driving on rough surfaces
I'd suggest the driving is less technical, you aren't chasing split seconds, but equally you aren't going to be tempted to spend Megga bucks to save a second either. Good times are gained by shear commitment and skill, not by that slight edge in equipment.
Thurbs said:
f you drive a well sorted one with a proper set up and good tyres you will get none of this. Likewise I see many rwd cars (M3s etc) understear like cross channel ferrys.
Here is a race where an RX8 beat me in a Clio...
https://youtu.be/ICQ2DkAOyJ4?list=PLmsJCCDm9ELbUeH...
Not helping my argument here am I?
Decent bit of driving there, especially corner entry speeds Here is a race where an RX8 beat me in a Clio...
https://youtu.be/ICQ2DkAOyJ4?list=PLmsJCCDm9ELbUeH...
Not helping my argument here am I?
If I may suggest though, try learning to heel and toe on the down changes, not only will it be kinder on your G-box but you will stop quicker with more stability = faster lap times 
cheers
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