The 2018 Rallying thread..(WRC, ERC, etc)
Discussion
Are Citroen really a lot better than last year? I'd be surprised if they win a WRC event on pure pace this season, especially when they've got rid of the only driver to win in that car. And how much better will they be next year? Is their budget going to be better - which is seemingly holding them back. At least Hyundai are fully behind their WRC (and other motorsport programmes).
And Malcolm Wilson's comment "when we're making such good strides with rallying in this country". Really?? When was that?
And Malcolm Wilson's comment "when we're making such good strides with rallying in this country". Really?? When was that?
ArnageWRC said:
Are Citroen really a lot better than last year?
I really don’t think so. GravelBen said:
Ogier getting screwed over by the FIA? Really? 
Ok. Maybe screwed over was strong choice of words. It’ll be interesting to see if and how any other penalties are handed out in the same vane as his Mexico power stage penalty. The FIA seem to be all over the place in regards to consistency of issuing penalties.
This is all based on what I’m reading on articles as I quoted and from other website/forums.
RyanTank said:
Ok. Maybe screwed over was strong choice of words.
It’ll be interesting to see if and how any other penalties are handed out in the same vane as his Mexico power stage penalty. The FIA seem to be all over the place in regards to consistency of issuing penalties.
Sordo and Lappi both got penalties for clipping barrels in the middle of a roundabout in Portugal didn't they?It’ll be interesting to see if and how any other penalties are handed out in the same vane as his Mexico power stage penalty. The FIA seem to be all over the place in regards to consistency of issuing penalties.
I do agree that FIA are pretty inconsistent with penalties, but the idea that its some kind of witch-hunt to unfairly disadvantage Ogier seems like nonsense to me.
I suspect part of the reason they came down pretty firmly on Ogier for going straight through the chicane was that he actually asked officials about it before the stage and was told it would be referred to the stewards, then went and did it anyway.
yeah they got penalties for clipping the barrels on the street stage. however Hiroki Arai got no penalty for smashing 2 of them over on exactly the same stage!? its this inconsistency that is troubling. This Autosport article highlights a fair amount of it, including detailed insight to the Ogier chicane issue at Mexico - https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/136254/the-pena...
The FIA really aren't helping themselves by stipulating what should make up chicanes and stage furniture, "The FIA's Rally Safety Guidelines advises chicanes should be made from straw bales, water tanks, a wall of connected tyres or a concrete barrier." and then not following through on enforcing it.
Agree that he didn't help himself by asking what would happen if he went straight through them, and then did it anyway.
I think the penalty was also handed out in response to the tactics at Swedens power stage too, they played the rules to the book and it seemingly made a mockery of the powers that be and they wanted to get back for that embarrassment
I've got to say that I am not a fan of this whole reporting to the stewards action that is starting to happen, its all getting a bit F1 level of pissyness.
The FIA really aren't helping themselves by stipulating what should make up chicanes and stage furniture, "The FIA's Rally Safety Guidelines advises chicanes should be made from straw bales, water tanks, a wall of connected tyres or a concrete barrier." and then not following through on enforcing it.
Agree that he didn't help himself by asking what would happen if he went straight through them, and then did it anyway.
I think the penalty was also handed out in response to the tactics at Swedens power stage too, they played the rules to the book and it seemingly made a mockery of the powers that be and they wanted to get back for that embarrassment
I've got to say that I am not a fan of this whole reporting to the stewards action that is starting to happen, its all getting a bit F1 level of pissyness.
Forst on the road was an issue for years, leading to drivers throwing stages to at least try and run second. On say a wet tar surface, first on road was bettter, but on dry gravel obviously never.
So, the FIA said after each day and at the start of each event there would be a seeded deal, where drivers leading could choose their start position.
This was great as it led to smaller teams and drivers setting fastest stage times, and running up front for a short time, then actually being offered the chance to perhaps lose a bit of time to not be given first on the road next day.
it was tactically obviously easier than simply man leading overnight runs first, but someone has to I guess.
So, the FIA said after each day and at the start of each event there would be a seeded deal, where drivers leading could choose their start position.
This was great as it led to smaller teams and drivers setting fastest stage times, and running up front for a short time, then actually being offered the chance to perhaps lose a bit of time to not be given first on the road next day.
it was tactically obviously easier than simply man leading overnight runs first, but someone has to I guess.
Allyc85 said:
How was the running order decided in the good old days? When I watch WRC from say 1998 they moan about sweeping then as well!
In the 'good old days' the previous years winner (if entered) would be seeded as the No1 car; then for each Leg after, the rally leader would be first one the road. However, events were far longer, so any time lost would normally be regained....so I don't remember as much 'problems' with running order.Since the 'new' format of WRC events from the late 90's - the running order has been an issue, as time lost is unlikely to be regained.
Running order is the WRC's answer to success ballast, or BoP/ EoT.......Does that make it right? For a national/ entertainment series then its fine....however, for a World Championship, I have a problem with levelling/ equalising performance. If a team/ driver is too good, then that's just how it is........but it isn't good for the sport. Look at the Loeb dominance on the WRC......interest in the sport dropped away.
Fastest competitor first on the road is the natural order, its not artificial tampering. I think I'd prefer to see Championship order day 1 only and then rally leaderboard order after that rather than the current reverse top 10 carry-on, though I can understand why they do it.
I don't think we'd have the same issue with cars stopping/slowing at the end of stages to lose time for next-day road position now, because they aren't allowed in-car split times like they used to have telling them how much time to lose.
Its the nature (and beauty) of rallying that its on real roads and subject to weather etc, and because of this different cars are always going to have different conditions at times.
In WRC road position gives an advantage about as often as a disadvantage, but all we hear reported is Ogier whinging about it when conditions disadvantage him and silence when its an advantage. You get the impression he'd only be happy if he was allowed to choose his road position for every stage.
Early road position - advantage on tarmac rallies, more so when wet as early cars drag mud onto the road for later cars. Often advantage on rough/soft/wet gravel as it gets rougher and more rutted for later cars (not just for speed but punctures and damage as well), or on thin snow/ice as later cars lose tyre studs in the gravel beneath. Disadvantage on dry gravel or fresh snow due to sweeping loose stuff off and exposing a firmer surface for later cars.
Take Sweden for example - this year there was a lot of snow and Ogier was throwing a right tantrum about how unfair it was. But the last couple of years there was less snow and first on the road was an advantage for him - the variable was the weather not the rules.
I don't think we'd have the same issue with cars stopping/slowing at the end of stages to lose time for next-day road position now, because they aren't allowed in-car split times like they used to have telling them how much time to lose.
Its the nature (and beauty) of rallying that its on real roads and subject to weather etc, and because of this different cars are always going to have different conditions at times.
In WRC road position gives an advantage about as often as a disadvantage, but all we hear reported is Ogier whinging about it when conditions disadvantage him and silence when its an advantage. You get the impression he'd only be happy if he was allowed to choose his road position for every stage.
Early road position - advantage on tarmac rallies, more so when wet as early cars drag mud onto the road for later cars. Often advantage on rough/soft/wet gravel as it gets rougher and more rutted for later cars (not just for speed but punctures and damage as well), or on thin snow/ice as later cars lose tyre studs in the gravel beneath. Disadvantage on dry gravel or fresh snow due to sweeping loose stuff off and exposing a firmer surface for later cars.
Take Sweden for example - this year there was a lot of snow and Ogier was throwing a right tantrum about how unfair it was. But the last couple of years there was less snow and first on the road was an advantage for him - the variable was the weather not the rules.
Edited by GravelBen on Friday 1st June 00:31
I grew up watching oval racing at Great Yarmouth stadium - in every class (even championship races) the fastest guys are automatically placed at the back of the grid and have to make their way through to the front during the race. That was just the way it was, everyone accepted it and it made for entertaining racing.
Sport is ultimately just entertainment, something those immersed in it often forget...
Sport is ultimately just entertainment, something those immersed in it often forget...
I know many people didn't like it but I'd be happy to see Shakedown Qualifying come back. But this time they could attach points to the fastest 3 finishers, in a 3-2-1 for 1-2-3 places format, then they get to choose their road position.
It rids the whingeing of road position as a disadvantage, and when it was used it didn't always work to the drivers advantage on events when they thought they were picking the best start position.
I think one of the issues with the calendar is the events are far too similar, aside from Sweden and Monte. I know you cant help the weather but every gravel round seems to be dry. and the tarmac events the same. Portugal this year was the most difficult event I think we've seen in a while in regards to being a true test of endurance for car and driver. It was almost Acropolis rally standards of a car breaker.
It rids the whingeing of road position as a disadvantage, and when it was used it didn't always work to the drivers advantage on events when they thought they were picking the best start position.
I think one of the issues with the calendar is the events are far too similar, aside from Sweden and Monte. I know you cant help the weather but every gravel round seems to be dry. and the tarmac events the same. Portugal this year was the most difficult event I think we've seen in a while in regards to being a true test of endurance for car and driver. It was almost Acropolis rally standards of a car breaker.
An important step for rallying (and other motorsport) in Scotland:
TRANSPORT SCOTLAND COMMITS TO CLOSED ROADS CONSULTATION
https://www.msauk.org/Transport-Scotland-commits-t...
TRANSPORT SCOTLAND COMMITS TO CLOSED ROADS CONSULTATION
https://www.msauk.org/Transport-Scotland-commits-t...
This is the way forward for ALL rallying in the UK to be honest
As it stands now, most single venue is non spectator or at least very crap to watch from, FC land is increasingly expensive, and we are one of the few countries worldwide rallying that don't do closed roads.
Only way really
As it stands now, most single venue is non spectator or at least very crap to watch from, FC land is increasingly expensive, and we are one of the few countries worldwide rallying that don't do closed roads.
Only way really
RyanTank said:
I know you cant help the weather but every gravel round seems to be dry.
Well they got some rain for Sardinia this weekend, someone must have heard you! 
Conditions certainly seem to be favouring the first cars on the road there.
Edited by GravelBen on Saturday 9th June 04:08
Allyc85 said:
Great battle between Ogier and Neuville so far!
Its all on between them for the final day too, not much margin in it.Seems like Ostberg will give up on trying to fight Paddon for 4th now, I guess Citroen will be 'encouraging' their drivers to make sure they finish.
Edited by GravelBen on Sunday 10th June 08:24
Some of the Citroen PR is frankly embarrassing.....getting excited about a battle between team mates who are off the pace.
However, 1 Power stage to go; and 0.8 secs between Ogier & Neuville. A battle for the Rally win, but also quite possible a psychological battle for the rest of the WRC season.
And drama; Ogier left his time card........thankfully for him Tanak picked it. If I was Hyundai, I would be annoyed; Tanak isn't even a team mate......
However, 1 Power stage to go; and 0.8 secs between Ogier & Neuville. A battle for the Rally win, but also quite possible a psychological battle for the rest of the WRC season.
And drama; Ogier left his time card........thankfully for him Tanak picked it. If I was Hyundai, I would be annoyed; Tanak isn't even a team mate......
Edited by ArnageWRC on Sunday 10th June 11:14
ArnageWRC said:
And drama; Ogier left his time card........thankfully for him Tanak picked it. If I was Hyundai, I would be annoyed; Tanak isn't even a team mate......
Ogier looked a bit flustered at the end of the stage there, bit of an amateur mistake for someone with so much experience. Should probably be glad that rallying still has some of that sportsmanship at the top level that is missing from F1 etc these days. Hyundai might still make a complaint if they can find a rule he broke though.
Edited by GravelBen on Sunday 10th June 12:27
ArnageWRC said:
Some of the Citroen PR is frankly embarrassing.....getting excited about a battle between team mates who are off the pace.
However, 1 Power stage to go; and 0.8 secs between Ogier & Neuville. A battle for the Rally win, but also quite possible a psychological battle for the rest of the WRC season.
And drama; Ogier left his time card........thankfully for him Tanak picked it. If I was Hyundai, I would be annoyed; Tanak isn't even a team mate......
Couldn't help but laugh at Citroen calling a 5th and 6th place finish, miles off the pace honourable!However, 1 Power stage to go; and 0.8 secs between Ogier & Neuville. A battle for the Rally win, but also quite possible a psychological battle for the rest of the WRC season.
And drama; Ogier left his time card........thankfully for him Tanak picked it. If I was Hyundai, I would be annoyed; Tanak isn't even a team mate......
Edited by ArnageWRC on Sunday 10th June 11:14
10,000 euro fine and suspended points drop for Ogier. I'm guessing the fact the organisers supposedly told him to stay where he was saved him from a heavier penalty? I wonder how vital those points will be in the manufacturers battle? While it was sporting of Tanak, the bosses of the other teams can't be happy about it?
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