what is the point of LMP1, and even GT3?
Discussion
OK I am an old fart but in my youth I could watch cars racing, even at le Mans, that bore a relationship to real cars that you could buy. If you were well off that is. Nowadays LMP1 is really a sort of F1 style single seater with an all enclosed body - you cant buy anything related to it for road use, nor could you drive it on the road as they did with the D types.. LMP1 is what used to be the category of car called "prototypes" and that were prototypes for road cars.
Its not much better in GT3. Recently reading as report of the new Bentley GT3, they have taken 800kg of weight out of it in order to race. Does the result have any relationship to what Bentley produces other than a slight visual link? So whats the point?
And saloon car racing- words fail me.
I would love to see cars like Ferrari 488 and McLaren 720 driven to le Mans and then raced. That would mean something. What do you think?
Its not much better in GT3. Recently reading as report of the new Bentley GT3, they have taken 800kg of weight out of it in order to race. Does the result have any relationship to what Bentley produces other than a slight visual link? So whats the point?
And saloon car racing- words fail me.
I would love to see cars like Ferrari 488 and McLaren 720 driven to le Mans and then raced. That would mean something. What do you think?
Ok, it's only a concept so far but Toyota have an LMP1 for the road...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=17...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=17...
I think nostalgia might have over taken you. Regarding Le Mans cars I can barely recall a time when the cars that raced at Le Mans bore much resemblance to the actual road cars they looked like. Le Mans spec E-Types were a long way from the road cars, for example.
And that I think follows through into the other formulae you mention. Group C/LMP1 cars have always been fericiously quick; back in the 1980s the Porsche 962s would regularly pull 240mph on the Mulsanne before the circuit was changed. Similarly Touring Cars (as with all race prepped models) are vastly different to the road cars. For example take a look at the engine in a BTCC Renault Laguna c1994 and be shocked at how low and far back in the engine bay it sits.
As for the Bentley GT3 car, well considering the road going car is over 2 tonnes of leather and walnut, it would be a shock if the race team didn't mamage to strip out at least 600kg before taking it racing. Indeed I suspect that far more than that has been stripped out, and then some weight put back into the car in strategic locations to improve the performance and ensure it's within the rules.
And that I think follows through into the other formulae you mention. Group C/LMP1 cars have always been fericiously quick; back in the 1980s the Porsche 962s would regularly pull 240mph on the Mulsanne before the circuit was changed. Similarly Touring Cars (as with all race prepped models) are vastly different to the road cars. For example take a look at the engine in a BTCC Renault Laguna c1994 and be shocked at how low and far back in the engine bay it sits.
As for the Bentley GT3 car, well considering the road going car is over 2 tonnes of leather and walnut, it would be a shock if the race team didn't mamage to strip out at least 600kg before taking it racing. Indeed I suspect that far more than that has been stripped out, and then some weight put back into the car in strategic locations to improve the performance and ensure it's within the rules.
Even GT4 is getting more removed. I worked on one of the first, built to spec GT4 cars, the N24 in 07. They were pretty awful in comparison to todays version. The problem is to sell cars to customers they must be affordable (£90 k in 07) competitive and reliable. Initially the N24 was, but as other cars caught it, it evolved. Big wings, big bumper extensions, lighter bodywork. I shouldnt think youd get much change out of £175k for a new one (you might actually as a new one is imminent) , But they have huge brakes (GT2) Bosch race abs in place of the road car, bias pedal boxes, etc etc etc.
As for the LeMans E Types, I recently did some work on a few of them, they are closer to the road car than you might imagine - stripped out - yes, but the original cars arent so far removed as youd think!
As for the LeMans E Types, I recently did some work on a few of them, they are closer to the road car than you might imagine - stripped out - yes, but the original cars arent so far removed as youd think!
bordseye said:
OK I am an old fart but in my youth I could watch cars racing, even at le Mans, that bore a relationship to real cars that you could buy. If you were well off that is. Nowadays LMP1 is really a sort of F1 style single seater with an all enclosed body - you cant buy anything related to it for road use, nor could you drive it on the road as they did with the D types.. LMP1 is what used to be the category of car called "prototypes" and that were prototypes for road cars.
Its not much better in GT3. Recently reading as report of the new Bentley GT3, they have taken 800kg of weight out of it in order to race. Does the result have any relationship to what Bentley produces other than a slight visual link? So whats the point?
And saloon car racing- words fail me.
I would love to see cars like Ferrari 488 and McLaren 720 driven to le Mans and then raced. That would mean something. What do you think?
I think you're talking nonsense. Its not much better in GT3. Recently reading as report of the new Bentley GT3, they have taken 800kg of weight out of it in order to race. Does the result have any relationship to what Bentley produces other than a slight visual link? So whats the point?
And saloon car racing- words fail me.
I would love to see cars like Ferrari 488 and McLaren 720 driven to le Mans and then raced. That would mean something. What do you think?
Why does motorsport HAVE to have any relation to road cars or green issues or the environment for that matter. Or to mean something? I thought it's only point was to try and win like in other sports and you have a variety of formula.
Where did this expectation come from that it had to relate to something in order to be valid? Nonsense. It does not have to relate to anything, not carbon emissions, battery life, fuel consumption, roads cars or anything at all.
Kraken said:
Well it has to relate to road car development at some point for the boards of the large corporations to justify the massive spending on the sport.
Exactly. When Bentley go racing they are trying to add something to the iumage of the car and therefore to the sales. They arent doing it because as a company they just like motor sport. But how are they adding anything to the image when the car they race bears not the slightest resemblance to the one they sellAnd there are other aspects to this. The first is the cost one - because the race cars have nothing to do with the road ones they are horrendously expensive to produce. The second is that there can be no pretence that "racing improves the breed" except possibly of race cars.
Kraken said:
Well it has to relate to road car development at some point for the boards of the large corporations to justify the massive spending on the sport.
You mean like Oreca and Ligier? Whilst there are still rich folks prepared to spend half a million quid a year to race them then the the big manufacturers will keep making GT3 and GT4 cars.
bordseye said:
Kraken said:
Well it has to relate to road car development at some point for the boards of the large corporations to justify the massive spending on the sport.
Exactly. When Bentley go racing they are trying to add something to the iumage of the car and therefore to the sales. They arent doing it because as a company they just like motor sport. But how are they adding anything to the image when the car they race bears not the slightest resemblance to the one they sellAnd there are other aspects to this. The first is the cost one - because the race cars have nothing to do with the road ones they are horrendously expensive to produce. The second is that there can be no pretence that "racing improves the breed" except possibly of race cars.
bordseye said:
Exactly. When Bentley go racing they are trying to add something to the iumage of the car and therefore to the sales. They arent doing it because as a company they just like motor sport. But how are they adding anything to the image when the car they race bears not the slightest resemblance to the one they sell
And there are other aspects to this. The first is the cost one - because the race cars have nothing to do with the road ones they are horrendously expensive to produce. The second is that there can be no pretence that "racing improves the breed" except possibly of race cars.
This is also nonsense. People do NOT buy road cars because Bentley are racing in GT or because a Merc F1 car is errr a Merc. People bought Bentleys before they were in GT and people bought Mercs before they were in F1.And there are other aspects to this. The first is the cost one - because the race cars have nothing to do with the road ones they are horrendously expensive to produce. The second is that there can be no pretence that "racing improves the breed" except possibly of race cars.
Zero relation.
Coorporations like to race for a variety of reasons but mainly its because of brand awareness and just getting the name out and about. I very much doubt your average Bentley purchaser if asked would say well er I saw this Bentley in GT racing and thought to myself that looks so cool ill nip off down and buy one!
People buy roads cars because they like them
99dndd said:
And a car's image forms a big part of the reason that people like them.
And winning at motorsport improves a car's image.
Granted but it's a loose correlation at best because the last time I looked Merc were not racing SLks. F1 cars have no relation at all to the cars Merc produces. My Mrs bought her SLk because she liked it. She could not care less that Merc have an F1 team, in fact she loathes Hamilton with a passion so if she cared that would be a turn off not on. And winning at motorsport improves a car's image.
Now granted the Bentley is another animal but I bet most people that buy Bentleys dont care it's in GT at all. I do and think its awesome but even I think its a bit of a whale.
Arguments both ways but EV and greens have no place in sport and I for one will set of loads of fireworks when EV racing dies a horrible nasty death.
Car manufacturers do not sell cars anymore - they sell image, lifestyle, self-confidence.
Look at their advertising these days. Does it tell you anything about the car at all? No, ofcourse not - it tells you how good you'd look driving it with a pretty girl next to you, or how happy and smiley your kids will be playing next to it on the beach etc.
Racing is exactly the same. Nobody is trying to tell you that you too can buy an Audi and win Le Mans. What they're telling you is that winners drive Audi's, and you want to be a winner don't you? Yes you do, now come to our showroom and find an Audi that suits you - it won't win Le Mans, but we do that for you, so you can feel successful by association.
It's the 21st century. We are no longer in the industrial revolution, but I suspect we are well into what will become known as the lifestyle revolution.
Cars are merely a brand image - like Nespresso, Nike, Marks & Spencer etc. What they are actually capable of is well down the list of priorities for most people.
Look at their advertising these days. Does it tell you anything about the car at all? No, ofcourse not - it tells you how good you'd look driving it with a pretty girl next to you, or how happy and smiley your kids will be playing next to it on the beach etc.
Racing is exactly the same. Nobody is trying to tell you that you too can buy an Audi and win Le Mans. What they're telling you is that winners drive Audi's, and you want to be a winner don't you? Yes you do, now come to our showroom and find an Audi that suits you - it won't win Le Mans, but we do that for you, so you can feel successful by association.
It's the 21st century. We are no longer in the industrial revolution, but I suspect we are well into what will become known as the lifestyle revolution.
Cars are merely a brand image - like Nespresso, Nike, Marks & Spencer etc. What they are actually capable of is well down the list of priorities for most people.
Edited by groomi on Tuesday 23 January 13:27
Thats an eloquent description Groomi but I dont buy it. Sure there must be some particulalry shallow people who buy on image but I suspect most people buy on cost and suitability . What they can afford and certainly nothing to do with motor racing, like Soul Reevers wife.
My argument is that for those who do want a performance car and who do take an interest in motor racing, it would be far more sensible if the cars that raced were related to the cars that can be bought in the showroom. F1 and its predecessor has never had that connection but the likes of le Mans used to have . For me the particular irritant is the prototype class which has morphed into LMP and which is a prototype of absolutely nothing. They are F1 cars with bodywork. Interestingly Ford did race a prototype last year but it was in GTE pro
My argument is that for those who do want a performance car and who do take an interest in motor racing, it would be far more sensible if the cars that raced were related to the cars that can be bought in the showroom. F1 and its predecessor has never had that connection but the likes of le Mans used to have . For me the particular irritant is the prototype class which has morphed into LMP and which is a prototype of absolutely nothing. They are F1 cars with bodywork. Interestingly Ford did race a prototype last year but it was in GTE pro
bordseye said:
Thats an eloquent description Groomi but I dont buy it. Sure there must be some particulalry shallow people who buy on image but I suspect most people buy on cost and suitability .
You'd think so, yes. But how many people actually go and look at a Kia, Daihatsu (sp?), or even a Ford or Vauxhall instead of automatically going for the BMW, Audi, Merc option? Does the 'premium' brand make a better car or is it just paying extra for the image? The reality is probably something inbetween, but it is absolutely undeniable that marketing that 'premium' works - if it didn't, they wouldn't spend billions a year doing it.bordseye said:
What they can afford and certainly nothing to do with motor racing, like Soul Reevers wife.
You're absolutely right. And the cars that are available at any cost also have nothing to do with motor racing. But they all have an image, a brand and that brand is often promoted through motor sports - but can be equally found sponsoring racing yachts, partnered in glossy magazines with oversize watches etc.It's simply consumerism. It's the age we live in. Everything we buy is the same - down to whether we choose to do the weekly food shop at Sainsbury's or Aldi.
bordseye said:
Thats an eloquent description Groomi but I dont buy it. Sure there must be some particulalry shallow people who buy on image but I suspect most people buy on cost and suitability . What they can afford and certainly nothing to do with motor racing, like Soul Reevers wife.
My argument is that for those who do want a performance car and who do take an interest in motor racing, it would be far more sensible if the cars that raced were related to the cars that can be bought in the showroom. F1 and its predecessor has never had that connection but the likes of le Mans used to have . For me the particular irritant is the prototype class which has morphed into LMP and which is a prototype of absolutely nothing. They are F1 cars with bodywork. Interestingly Ford did race a prototype last year but it was in GTE pro
You do understand the technical regs used in lmp1 hybrid technology which trickles down to road cars. The last time leman had anything like road going cars was the 50s everything after that had very little in common with road cars. Gt3 is a rule set to keep stability in gt racing it helps control cost to stop the constant flood of manufactures rising cost then the exit of said manufactures. Gt3 allows manufactures too sell cars to customer teams under a rule set that allows 11/12 different manufactures to build vehcilew sell to privaters/dealer backed teams to help create a stable healthy series which it has done. My argument is that for those who do want a performance car and who do take an interest in motor racing, it would be far more sensible if the cars that raced were related to the cars that can be bought in the showroom. F1 and its predecessor has never had that connection but the likes of le Mans used to have . For me the particular irritant is the prototype class which has morphed into LMP and which is a prototype of absolutely nothing. They are F1 cars with bodywork. Interestingly Ford did race a prototype last year but it was in GTE pro
Everything thing else including homolgation has failed due to manufactures uncontrolled budgets and lack of interest after that.
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