Brands Hatch new catch fencing.
Discussion
chunder27 said:
You can never protect completely against incident, which is why he Brands stuff is so over the top, remember McNish F3000 at Donington in about 1990, was on the straight and someone was killed I think by a flying engine?
No you can't but to not to take steps when they are available is viewed as criminal.If a car crashed in the same way as the Seat did and someone was hurt or killed the legal profession would have a field day with MSV if the fencing hadn't gone up.
But the whole point of this is that going to watch motorsport is a risk, so why can't that risk just be accepted within reason. We all are aware of it. And accept it. It's like the rally thing we fans are now either banned or shut in pens, why cant fans have a pass of some kind that allows them entry, and prevents people just turning up, allowing them to stand anywhere with no education or knowledge.
Totally ruining a perfectly safe piece or viewing area simply because of one freak accident is utterly ridiculous in my view.
And that is the point, it was a freak occurrence, not routine.
Say, you were allowed to stand right near the edge of the track at the end of Park Straight at Cadwell, then fair enough that would be stupid, or the outside of Coram near the track edge, but you can't as they are obvious places a car can veer off track or an incident can happen.
But, this was not that kind of incident, it was so odd.
I get the point of having safe areas for common places of incident, but to simply ban people from going somewhere coz of a one off is insane
Totally ruining a perfectly safe piece or viewing area simply because of one freak accident is utterly ridiculous in my view.
And that is the point, it was a freak occurrence, not routine.
Say, you were allowed to stand right near the edge of the track at the end of Park Straight at Cadwell, then fair enough that would be stupid, or the outside of Coram near the track edge, but you can't as they are obvious places a car can veer off track or an incident can happen.
But, this was not that kind of incident, it was so odd.
I get the point of having safe areas for common places of incident, but to simply ban people from going somewhere coz of a one off is insane
chunder27 said:
why cant fans have a pass of some kind that allows them entry
... like an MSA authorised "safe fan" license... get caught standing somewhere stupid or acting like a t
t and you get in revoked for the season.... you could have it so, there can be restricted areas that have marshals at a gate where you need to show your pass to enter... GP loop at brands for example... i'm off to email the MSA...
chunder27 said:
But the whole point of this is that going to watch motorsport is a risk, so why can't that risk just be accepted within reason. We all are aware of it. And accept it. It's like the rally thing we fans are now either banned or shut in pens, why cant fans have a pass of some kind that allows them entry, and prevents people just turning up, allowing them to stand anywhere with no education or knowledge.
Unfortunately that's not the way that the H&S law works in the UK, and the organiser will always have to demonstrate that they've taken appropriate steps to mitigate / minimise the risks. There's a duty of care and you have to assume that the spectator is an idiot / not really aware of the potential risks (a high percentage in my experience). Basic guidance here: http://www.hse.gov.uk/pUbns/priced/hsg112.pdfHaving marshaled the Brands GP loop many times, I'm only surprised that it's taken so long for the fencing to go up.
Lynchie999 said:
... like an MSA authorised "safe fan" license... get caught standing somewhere stupid or acting like a tt and you get in revoked for the season....
you could have it so, there can be restricted areas that have marshals at a gate where you need to show your pass to enter... GP loop at brands for example... i'm off to email the MSA...
You could stipulate that anyone who wants the licence will also need to provide adequate public liability insurance as well. Trackside photographers need to be covered up to £5million so start with that.t and you get in revoked for the season.... you could have it so, there can be restricted areas that have marshals at a gate where you need to show your pass to enter... GP loop at brands for example... i'm off to email the MSA...
Exactly
My idea is simple.
Every year fans can apply for a licence for whatever series they want to spectate for, be it stage rallying, circuit racing, trials etc.
You attend and pay for a course where the dangers or issues are highlighted, then you receive a pass. Other people are made to stand in utterly safe areas. Maybe?
That exempts the club, drivers, everyone from responsibility if anything happens to you while spectating, much like snappers waive their rights if they get hit as they are obviously closer.
For certain sports, especially rallying, I would gladly pay this.
My idea is simple.
Every year fans can apply for a licence for whatever series they want to spectate for, be it stage rallying, circuit racing, trials etc.
You attend and pay for a course where the dangers or issues are highlighted, then you receive a pass. Other people are made to stand in utterly safe areas. Maybe?
That exempts the club, drivers, everyone from responsibility if anything happens to you while spectating, much like snappers waive their rights if they get hit as they are obviously closer.
For certain sports, especially rallying, I would gladly pay this.
chunder27 said:
Exactly
My idea is simple.
Every year fans can apply for a licence for whatever series they want to spectate for, be it stage rallying, circuit racing, trials etc.
You attend and pay for a course where the dangers or issues are highlighted, then you receive a pass. Other people are made to stand in utterly safe areas. Maybe?
That exempts the club, drivers, everyone from responsibility if anything happens to you while spectating, much like snappers waive their rights if they get hit as they are obviously closer.
For certain sports, especially rallying, I would gladly pay this.
Whats an utterly safe area? Videos of cars going over catch fences suggest theres no such thing.My idea is simple.
Every year fans can apply for a licence for whatever series they want to spectate for, be it stage rallying, circuit racing, trials etc.
You attend and pay for a course where the dangers or issues are highlighted, then you receive a pass. Other people are made to stand in utterly safe areas. Maybe?
That exempts the club, drivers, everyone from responsibility if anything happens to you while spectating, much like snappers waive their rights if they get hit as they are obviously closer.
For certain sports, especially rallying, I would gladly pay this.
chunder27 said:
Well, then you stop punters from attending race circuits completely as the MSA have basically done with stage and single venue rallying.
I am sure tracks would be happy, as it stands now circuit racing is not worth attending anyway.
Agreed, they seem to virtually want marshals to be unable to see the track as well at rallying.I am sure tracks would be happy, as it stands now circuit racing is not worth attending anyway.
Don't get me wrong, I've got hundreds of photos of race cars I'll do nothing with, but I realised i'd much rather see the race than have pictures of cars. To do that the fence doesn't matter so much. The problem would essentially come about when you get big events (trucks, BTCC, F1, WEC) where too many spectators had upgraded their permission and wanted to get in to the small 'danger area'.
Castle Combe has a few spots where spectators are just a few metres from the track (at track level) with just a low bit of armco for safety, they're incredibly high speed sections too. I'm happy to admit I feel uncomfortable there, even though it would take a freak accident/mechanical failure for an incident to occur as they are sections of straight. To my knowledge the area (unlike Quarry!) is incident free.
I can't think of many other spots at circuits where that is the case, but Combe is allowed massive grids, particularly so for a 1.85 mile circuit, so presumably the MSA are perfectly happy with it.
I can't think of many other spots at circuits where that is the case, but Combe is allowed massive grids, particularly so for a 1.85 mile circuit, so presumably the MSA are perfectly happy with it.
chunder27 said:
But the whole point of this is that going to watch motorsport is a risk, so why can't that risk just be accepted within reason.
Your statement is true of motorsports held away from the controlled locations such as circuits. Being for all intents and purposes a controlled event then the organisers must do everything possible to reduce risks. this simply can not be avoided if these circuits want to remain operational.
chunder27 said:
It's like the rally thing we fans are now either banned or shut in pens
utter bks. and this was proved to you in the Rallying thread. perhaps if you attended regular foresrty/closed road tarmac events instead of the circuit championship you'd see this.chunder27 said:
why cant fans have a pass of some kind that allows them entry, and prevents people just turning up, allowing them to stand anywhere with no education or knowledge.
This was brought up in the Rallying thread some time ago, i think maybe by you? and it was shown to you then how this spectator license simply couldn't work. The MSA is incapable of issuing competitor and marshal licenses on time too. it took them 3 months and 3 phonecalls to get my marshals license issued, its a good job you dont have to produce it at sign on at events . . . . . . ohh wait!
can you imagine the uproar of thousands of fans not getting their licenses sent in time to go watch some racing. I'm sure some levy will be applied to events such as the F1, or "sing up on the day" type system, thereby leaving the system pointless.
chunder27 said:
Totally ruining a perfectly safe piece or viewing area simply because of one freak accident is utterly ridiculous in my view.
And that is the point, it was a freak occurrence, not routine.
Racing cars getting airborne as Mark Webber did at Le Mans was labelled a freak accident. and yet here we are in 2018 and cars are regularly getting airborne, flat floored racing cars have a major play in that too.And that is the point, it was a freak occurrence, not routine.
I have tried to attend quite a few rallies in the last few years and it has been made very clear that I was not welcome.
I am not the slightest but interested in marshalling. I live nowhere near any forestry, so the only rallies I can attend are the circuit ones, which are diluted obviously as a result. I don't mind this.
But in the past if you used your common sense, you could attend single venues too, and in my recent experience at Fulbeck and a couple of other venues, your presence has been an issue, whereas in the past it has not. If you got there at the right time and stood in sensible places. So your comment is complete b******s as far as I am concerned.
If a licence system takes a long time for marshals, you are right, for spectators it would be impossible.
But you can see where it's heading, non spectator events, either because clubs and tracks don't want the cost or the events are deemed unsafe to attend.
If that is the case then it is the beginning of the end of motorsport in this country at MSA level.
And let's be honest, the MSA don't seem that fussed, and are so scared of lawsuits and issues they do relatively little to help.
I am not the slightest but interested in marshalling. I live nowhere near any forestry, so the only rallies I can attend are the circuit ones, which are diluted obviously as a result. I don't mind this.
But in the past if you used your common sense, you could attend single venues too, and in my recent experience at Fulbeck and a couple of other venues, your presence has been an issue, whereas in the past it has not. If you got there at the right time and stood in sensible places. So your comment is complete b******s as far as I am concerned.
If a licence system takes a long time for marshals, you are right, for spectators it would be impossible.
But you can see where it's heading, non spectator events, either because clubs and tracks don't want the cost or the events are deemed unsafe to attend.
If that is the case then it is the beginning of the end of motorsport in this country at MSA level.
And let's be honest, the MSA don't seem that fussed, and are so scared of lawsuits and issues they do relatively little to help.
have you considered then Chunder that you may be (unknowingly) in the category of spectator that you are complaining about if you are being made to feel so unwelcome at events? 
I'm sorry your finding difficulty spectating events away from circuits. I understand your comment of "in sensible places" but these last few years of incidents in rallying has shown 'sensible' to be lacking both in spectating and organising. An area you used to stand in but now cant has likely been delegated a no go zone and as MSA safety delegates attend practically every event now and like to drive the route then a no go area simply must be kept as that. yes usually to the detriment of spectators. Pens are set up on every event but are not the only option for a days spectating.
I don't think tracks and events want to go spectator free in the slightest. doing so would close the business for them I'm sure. they wont be making as much on testing/track days as they will on an entry gate for a decent race series.
I'm sorry your finding difficulty spectating events away from circuits. I understand your comment of "in sensible places" but these last few years of incidents in rallying has shown 'sensible' to be lacking both in spectating and organising. An area you used to stand in but now cant has likely been delegated a no go zone and as MSA safety delegates attend practically every event now and like to drive the route then a no go area simply must be kept as that. yes usually to the detriment of spectators. Pens are set up on every event but are not the only option for a days spectating.
I don't think tracks and events want to go spectator free in the slightest. doing so would close the business for them I'm sure. they wont be making as much on testing/track days as they will on an entry gate for a decent race series.
Wasn't it about here last year that a BSB bike jumped the barriers and ended up in a tree?
I've no issues with such fencing to be honest. Doesn't remove the sensation of being there and the speed involved. Maybe engineer in some 'window' areas of no mesh, like they do along the start finish straights, so you could poke your head out?
I've no issues with such fencing to be honest. Doesn't remove the sensation of being there and the speed involved. Maybe engineer in some 'window' areas of no mesh, like they do along the start finish straights, so you could poke your head out?
For me, your average clubby I liely attended only by friends and family.
Probably get locals in on nice days etc, but at a wet and windy Snetterton, there are not going to be many punters there.
As for rallies.
I have never stood in a dangerous place as far as I know, in over 30 years attending rallies all over the country, and as with a lot of fans have assisted and done marshalling duties for other crews and to assist marshals when incidents occur. Without wearing a bib or shouting at people.
That seems lost on most MSA people.
I appreciate the MSA are in a difficult spot, but I think they could do far more to make this easier.
As I see it, the only way forward is closed roads, that way, people will always be able to watch. Airfield rallies are invariably crap anyway
Probably get locals in on nice days etc, but at a wet and windy Snetterton, there are not going to be many punters there.
As for rallies.
I have never stood in a dangerous place as far as I know, in over 30 years attending rallies all over the country, and as with a lot of fans have assisted and done marshalling duties for other crews and to assist marshals when incidents occur. Without wearing a bib or shouting at people.
That seems lost on most MSA people.
I appreciate the MSA are in a difficult spot, but I think they could do far more to make this easier.
As I see it, the only way forward is closed roads, that way, people will always be able to watch. Airfield rallies are invariably crap anyway
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